What threats do SS's pose

Conspiracynut--

Make that worked. Today’s Masons are far from being revolutionaries. In fact, freemasonry forbids political discussion in meetings. The days of the French/American revolution are long gone.

No, make that work UNLESS you can show me tangible proof that says that Masonry works against the people, with a firm explanation as to why, how and when they work against the people, the statement and fact remains, they work FOR the people. Charity and so forth, and the care of its members ARE the workings for the people.. maybe not you your self, but someone somewhere is being helped by Masonry and no one anywhere is being hurt by Masonry.

Thus, Masonry works for the people.

During the revolutionary war, the civil war etcetera politics where not allowed to be talked of in lodges either..

Plans and conspiracy against the powers that be where formulated within a lodge, but not an open meeting. There is a huge difference.

We talk about politics all the time after our meetings over breakfast (I attend a morning lodge) .. but in a stated meeting no political discussion.

Some anti-masons happen to be quite knowledgeable about Masonry. Perhaps more than the average mason even. It's just they happen to believe that the 366th degree (or whatever) controls all the lower ones. (although they constantly fail to show by which mechanism they do so.)

No. That is not true actually.. anti-Masons actually know very little about Masonry.. they may know the basic concepts.. the basic words.. but they cannot comprehend the MEANING behind it, which makes them anti-Masons to begin with. Had they known the real meanings behind what they fear or hate, then they would have no need to despise Masonry the way they do.

Having Understanding of something is entirely different then "knowing" something. Knowing something is to see the outside cast of what your looking for, and seeing it coming to conclusions based on visual evidence. Understanding something is to see through everything and find the often shadowed and hidden meanings.. something that involves often experience, or at least the ability to comprehend without explanation.

Morgan murder, the Leo Taxil hoax, P2, death during initiations, etc. These PR nightmares were not caused by tyrants.

None of this is relivant to recognized Masonry. There has never been a murder in an initiation that I have read of.. there was a shooting in (England?) but was not apart of any ritual recognized by Masonry.

Recognized Masonry and unrecognized Masonry can often be entirely different.

Personally, I fear secret meetings in which the decisions taken have an impact on my life without me being included in the decision making process.

You will never be included in meetings that include matters that will effect your life. You are not important enough to be permitted to belong in such meetings.

Nearly all government decisions are discussed in private, closed doors before even being thought of implemented..

As for Masonry, unless you are someone receiving aid from them, you will never be effected by Masonry.

To fear meetings, even ones that pertain to you, is ridiculous. One must assume that you are not privy to know the going ons of everything, most people operate better being oblivious.

Secrecy can be a threat. Secrets held by Masons are not a threat.

More often then not the things you need to fear the most are under your nose, on TV and discussed openly in public. What is unknown does not endanger you, because most everything is unknown to you.

A secret society does not form its self around the idea it will control the masses, no, the masses are already controlled.. they always have been, they always will be, it is needed. Instead, societies that form around the base of control, typically aim to control the Elite, the complete opposite of most conspiracy theorist. Understand once again, the mundane, the unimportant and often the inferior do not need to be conspired against, there are far easier, better ways to gain their loyalty and thus control.. the biggest conspiracies in the world pertain to controlling wealth (and the individuals that hold it) and securing power, of many kinds, by the control of the Elite. The average Joe is not important enough quite frankly to deserve such a conspiracy.

As I understand it even a belief in Allah, Buddha (the non-atheist version), Poseidon or even Satan gets you in. (any "Supreme" being)

To whom ever you believe. However, I have never heard of a "satanist" joining Masonry, as brotherly love, compassion, and the desire to help those in need .. do not tend to be activities a "satanist" would find.. enjoyable.

However, no one should dictate your belief in God. My God is not the same as your God, and no two ideas of God have ever come together matching exactly the same. Its still God in my mind, what else should matter? Believing God had a son is mythology, and not believing that should not make you any less inferior then someone who subscribes to such beliefs.

This is where a lot of anti-Masons come from, that because it is not mandated that one HAS to believe in the Christ, that they must worship Satan, but many subscribe to neither the belief of Christ nor Satan, such as my self, my God is not your God, and my ideas cannot be dictated. Suppressed yes, and many Anti-Masons would love to do that, but that is not what Masonry is about. Masonry obviously does not work against ME now does it? Works for me actually.

Either way you need to believe in mythological characters to be a Mason. So we the atheists are out.

As Corsig said, that is true, and explained why (as have I in that long thread I posted)

I am 100% against Atheism in Masonry.. to be an Atheist is to do exactly as it is "do not believe in God" any God at all, which is the exact same as denying God in all aspects of your life, to be an Atheist is to believe in God enough at one point to say you Do not believe.

Corsig--

Yes CN you are right secrecy can be a threat. I guess cause I'm on the inside I don't see myself as threatening but I respect now that it can be viewed that way to some.

It is not the secret its self that is the treat, and thus making people fear the secret that is withheld..

It is the anger inspired that they are not privy to such information themselves, as all Humans tend to believe them selves to be the center of this world, that they themselves are the most important soul, and that no information should ever be withheld from THEM.. no, no one wants to believe themselves inferior and unworthy or incapable of knowing, or understanding the "secret"

Many secret societies that are feared, if where opened and 100% explained to the general population, they would simply be cast aside as ridiculous and not worth the light of day by the average man. It is the mystique surounding the idea of something you simply cannot understand that drives people to fear.

It is simply the fear of the unknown.

Hi Everyone,

I just thread through this thread, and thumbs up to everybody who has participated for engaging in a rational debate. We need more of that around here.

Just my $0.02 worth on previous comments:

I disagree that atheists would not find enlightenment in Masonic ethics, and that atheists do not have a moral compass. Indeed, I've known atheists who are practically saints, and I've known self-styled "men of God" who were several layers below sewer rats.

Brother Pike himself acknowledged the fact, in M&D, that there are many "theoretical atheists" who are "practical Christians", just as there are many "theoretical Christians" who are "practical atheists". Indeed, we've seen this very phenomenon right here time and time again.

Therefore, it doesn't seem to me that atheists are not suited for initiation because of their morality. If atheists can be just as moral as theists, there must be another reason.

On this, I happily concede to Intrepid. I realize that the majority of the Craft is extremely timid these days in the area of religion, but timidity has never been my strong point. I do in fact believe that atheists are barred from membership because they would not appreciate the religious teachings of the fraternity (even though most would have absolutely no problem with the Craft's moral teachings).

Originally posted by Rockpuck
No, make that work UNLESS you can show me tangible proof that says that Masonry works against the people, with a firm explanation as to why, how and when they work against the people, the statement and fact remains, they work FOR the people. Charity and so forth, and the care of its members ARE the workings for the people.. maybe not you your self, but someone somewhere is being helped by Masonry and no one anywhere is being hurt by Masonry.

And in what way is this revolutionary? I never said masonry wasn’t good for the people.
I reiterate. worked There’s nothing revolutionary in what you guys are doing, today.

We talk about politics all the time after our meetings over breakfast (I attend a morning lodge) .. but in a stated meeting no political discussion.

You don’t have to look to hard to find a quasi-fascism government to overthrow.

…but they cannot comprehend the MEANING behind it, which makes them anti-Masons to begin with.

The “meaning” isn’t part of your modes of recognition, why don’t you just explain it clearly for us here?

None of this is relivant to recognized Masonry.

Type any of those term and add “+ masons” is you don’t think it’s relevant.

There has never been a murder in an initiation that I have read of.

That’s Anti-Masonry 101. Here you go.

Recognized Masonry and unrecognized Masonry can often be entirely different.

Do you think Average Joe and Average Jane know this? Still, bad PR.

You will never be included in meetings that include matters that will effect your life. You are not important enough to be permitted to belong in such meetings.

That’s your opinion, I’m glad you are willing to surrender your freedoms. I’m not. I believe in a better system is possible.

As for Masonry, unless you are someone receiving aid from them, you will never be effected by Masonry.

I never even insinuated that Masons had any power.

What is unknown does not endanger you, because most everything is unknown to you.

Is that Doublespeak or something?

the biggest conspiracies in the world pertain to controlling wealth (and the individuals that hold it) and securing power, of many kinds, by the control of the Elite. The average Joe is not important enough quite frankly to deserve such a conspiracy.

Hmm, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying.

However, I have never heard of a "satanist" joining Masonry,

However, he could join the Masons. Atheists can’t join. (That would keep real revolutionaries out, wouldn’t it?)

My God is not the same as your God, and no two ideas of God have ever come together matching exactly the same.

If my opinion, your god is a cartoon character, and that’s why I can never be a mason.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


Thanks Corsig, I didn’t know that. Is the Grand Lodge in France accepted by the UGLE. In other words, if I joined a French Lodge, would you guys consider me a mason?

The National Grand Lodge of France is the regular Grand Body. They do indeed require belief in the existence of a Supreme Being.

The Grand Lodge of France is currently irregular, but they also require the belief in a Supreme Being (Crowley's Lodge was under the authority of this Body). However, there has been talk of a merger with the National Grand Lodge of France, which would regularize all of its bodies.

The only body in France that does not require belief in the existence of God is the Grand Orient of France. Members of these Lodges are not considered Masons by the orthodox Craft. Also, they should not be confused with the Grand Orient of Italy, which does require belief in the existence of God.

Also, the rituals of the Grand Orient of France are different from those of regular Masonry. Masonic ritual explores the mysteries of theism, the human soul, and ethics, while the Grand Orient of France is more political in character.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

You don’t have to look to hard to find a quasi-fascism government to overthrow.

I certainly can't argue with that.

That’s Anti-Masonry 101. Here you go.

In all fairness, Morgan was never harmed during an initiation. It is generally believed that he himself was never initiated, passed, or raised, but had conned himself into a Lodge. The only initiation that he is believed to have received is when he was exalted to the Royal Arch. After this, he signed a petition to form a new Royal Arch Chapter. When it was researched by the Grand Chapter of New York, it was then that his legitimacy first came to be questioned.

However, he could join the Masons. Atheists can’t join. (That would keep real revolutionaries out, wouldn’t it?)

Since Satanists also consider themselves atheists, they would not qualify for initiation under this prerequisite. An exception could possibly be made for members of the Temple of Set (see my posts in the thread "Worshiping Satan").

However, another issue then arises. Belief in a Supreme Being is only one of the requirements. It does not automatically gaurantee one membership. Indeed, at least theoretically, one's personal character and integrity is every bit as important. Therefore, each candidate must be sponsored by two members who know him well, and vouch for his character.

The members of the Temple of Set (and the Church of Satan, for that matter) consider Masonry a magical school of the Right Hand Path. Since Satanists and Setians admittedly follow the Left Hand Path, they would not be interested in joining anyway.

If my opinion, your god is a cartoon character, and that’s why I can never be a mason.

Someday you will kneel before the Great Bugs Bunny, and thy words shall be a scourge in thy throat.

But in all seriousness, I am more or less a Pantheist. My God is the God of Einstein, Spinoza, Plato, and Goethe. Dr. J.D. Buck, a Brother of the Craft, described God as "humanity in toto", an appelation in which I agree.



[edit on 28-4-2007 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
In all fairness, Morgan was never harmed during an initiation.

I was giving an example of bad Masonic PR. The Morgan incident certainly qualifies as such. (I've never claimed it was during an initiation, Rockpunk misread.)

Since Satanists also consider themselves atheists, they would not qualify for initiation under this prerequisite.

I was under that impression as well. Yet, another misunderstood group. However in this case they chose the name for that very purpose, imo. (shock)

Someday you will kneel before the Great Bugs Bunny, and thy words shall be a scourge in thy throat.

I am more or less a Pantheist.

I first encountered that word last week. Funny you mention it.



[edit on 28/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Apologies to all, RWPBR in particular. I got caught up in the debate. Truth be told, I don't believe anything I posted, those that have been around a while know that. I was just in the mood for debating. If I offended, sorry.

Edit to add: Maybe Friday night was the wrong choice of nights.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by intrepid]

Originally posted by intrepid
Apologies to all, RWPBR in particular. I got caught up in the debate. Truth be told, I don't believe anything I posted, those that have been around a while know that. I was just in the mood for debating. If I offended, sorry.

Edit to add: Maybe Friday night was the wrong choice of nights.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by intrepid]

I considered it good natured trash talking and wasnt offended by it

Originally posted by intrepid
Apologies to all, RWPBR in particular. I got caught up in the debate. Truth be told, I don't believe anything I posted, those that have been around a while know that. I was just in the mood for debating. If I offended, sorry.

Edit to add: Maybe Friday night was the wrong choice of nights.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by intrepid]

I thought you handled yourself very well and handled yourself in a professional manner.

Originally posted by intrepid
Edit to add: Maybe Friday night was the wrong choice of nights.

I've just read through the whole thread and it was clear to me that Intrepid was playing devil's advocate - in fact I even think he said as much at the start.

It's the beer talking

I've had to use that excuse a few times myself. Arguments down the pub after a few "shandies" always seem to be so crucial. One night, I even managed to convince a bloke that freemasons drug dogs and blow up toilets...

... but that's another story...

I even managed to convince a bloke that freemasons drug dogs and blow up toilets..

...Is that a "bad thing"... because..


.....My lodge really does do that?