U.S. House passes bill requireing troop pullout

So wait.. let me understand this:

Trying to bring our citizens back from a war that was started by lies, deciet, and false pretenses = not supporting our troops.

But extending theyre mandatory stay time to 14 months = Supporting them.

????

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
One of the things Im worried about is I believe it was VP Cheney who said the democrats were getting very close to treason with their behavior.

Cheney was talking about himself when he made comments on treason, he knows that what he and the Bush administration has done to this country and our soldiers in the middle east is the biggest corrupted scandal to ever face our nation and they are the ones that are committing treason in favor of their greedy corporate agendas at the expenses of Iraqis lives and American lives for oil.

What I wonder is what if the administration decides some of the Democrats in Congress have committed treason and tells the Justice Dept to go arrest them. What would happen?

This is my answer to that I guess impeachment will be very near.

Come to think of it, it wouldnt even require that many to be arrested to place the Congress back in Republican control.

That will be call dictatorship, perhaps you have not learned yet in school what that means.

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
One of the things Im worried about is I believe it was VP Cheney who said the democrats were getting very close to treason with their behavior.

Cheney was talking about himself when he made comments on treason, he knows that what he and the Bush administration has done to this country and our soldiers in the middle east is the biggest corrupted scandal to ever face our nation and they are the ones that are committing treason in favor of their greedy corporate agendas at the expenses of Iraqis lives and American lives for oil.

What I wonder is what if the administration decides some of the Democrats in Congress have committed treason and tells the Justice Dept to go arrest them. What would happen?

This is my answer to that

I guess impeachment will be very near.

Come to think of it, it wouldnt even require that many to be arrested to place the Congress back in Republican control.

That will be call dictatorship, perhaps you have not learned yet in school what that means.

Im pretty sure he was refering to the Democrats in Congress. I know you may be redirecting his comments as meaning him though. Hes the Vice President and if he says another party is acting almost in a treasonous way whether that is true or not doesnt matter. What matters is if the Justice Department agrees with him. The way things are looking for Secretary Gonzales I wouldnt be surprised if he agreed with VP Cheney.

Well without a majority in Congress it would be kind of hard to press for impeachment. You think the majority of Republicans are going to impeach a Republican President?

This is not unprecidented in history. You should read about the history of the Democratic party and the US Civil War. The nation divided along party lines in the war. The Democrats left the congress during the secession as they were from the southern states. This left the Republicans in complete control of Congress allowing them to pass legislation that would have never passed without the absence of the Democrats.

Dictatorship? Hardly. No one would have Absolute power or control. I could see it going to the Supreme Court. How they rule would determine if it was constitutional or not. As for learned in school? How old do you think I am? Ive been in the US Army for Seven years and Im about to seek a commission through ROTC.

You completely misunderstood my point as if I was advocating it. I said I was worried not cheering the prospect of it.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
A leader does not base his decisions on polls. A leader bases his decisions on right and wrong and what is best for the country. If you don't agree with it, show it with your vote in 2k8.

Actually, the leaders in America are oath-bound to the Constitution, which means that they do have to follow the demands of the American Public. Performing any other action is Breech of Constitutional Oath & subject to Impeachment & perhaps followed up with facing charges in the court room.
Don't you have any idea what the Constitution says about it? I suggest you take a very close look at it. The government is not supposed to be filled with "leaders" anyway...The Government is supposed to be under sovereinty of the People, but your opinion states the exact opposite of Constitutional text.

Originally posted by Stormrider
THere is no way that congress or even Bush would station our active duty troops along our national borders and certainly not to round up illegal aliens

.

Of course you're right...To do so would actually imply that, as the Chief Executive Officer of the Exectuvie Branch & charged with the duty to enforce the laws, that he actually would enforce the lawsl The Bush Administration has done a real bang-up job of this primary duty so far, don't you think?

Originally posted by Stormrider
Oh sure, and while we're at it, lets deploy our federal troops in all of our major ciites to round up all of the gang bangers and drug pushers too.

I only mentioned enforcing the Immigration Laws; don't put words into my mouth. Illegal Immigrants have been getting access to already-strained social service systems that have been denied to American Citizens who need them. As illegals continue to stream into the country in ever-greater numbers, they cause billions of dollars worth of damage to our enitre economic & infrastructure systems. If it takes the additional manpower of the National Military to reverse the problem, then so be it...At least the Exectutive Branch would then be acting upon their sworn duty to enforce the laws.
At least this would be a much more effective solution than the proposed "border wall" to stop the increasing tide of illegals. And it would also be much better than any North American Union...This would destroy the inheirent sovereinty of all three nations involved.

Originally posted by Stormrider
What the Constitution was talking about was the keeping of a national militia to protect our internal security against forces seeking to overthrow our government as was occuring in France at the time of the Continental Congresses.

I suggest you read the Second Amendment a bit more carefully. Yes, it does establish State Militias, but immediately after that it establishes the Right for the citizens to bear arms as well; The Founding Fathers intent was that the People have at least a last-ditch means to defend themselves from the government itself, if needed. This is the main reason that the government have been sneaking "gun control laws" into the legal structure over the past few decades; They know that the first step to total facism is to disarm the public & it's the same thing that the US Founding Fathers knew too.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Just a pitty everything your fathers, and their fathers fought for has been totally DISGRACED by one administartion and their corporate leaders.

Actually, the Bush Administration is merely the latest in a long line of "leaders" that have been ursurping Powers beyond what the Constitution grants them...I humbly appreciate your opinon anyway.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Strange how when it comes to the ME many americans want to bring freedom and democracy to people that are content with how things are , yet right under our noses and with our monetary and military support we help to continue conditions that have more dictatorial traits then any of the countries we are trying to vilify and that goes unnoticed. Its amazing.

Spot On! The problem is that there are many Americans who don't realize that, not only should we restrain from spreading Democracy, we shouldn't even be a Democracy either! The Constitution demands a Republic form of Government which the so-called "leaders have totally ignored, even acting against the very same Oaths that bind them to obey that very same Constitution!
The Constitution not only delegated which Powers are reserved for whom, but also places very strict limits on all such Powers as well...It's the fact that the US Government ignores these limitations that's heinous!

MikeboydUS

Perhaps I did misunderstood you.

The problem with “democratic Governments” I will bring the issue that we are not a democracy but a Republic, perhaps a dying one but still a Republic.

Since the early days of the present administration, we have seen a veil of secrecy taking over what is supposed to be a free and democratic government.

These two things do not match.

Open government is the key to free society. The Bush administration has made sure that nobody get into its business like the so call business are his privately, but that’s not so when it come to the well being of the nation and the people that his administration is serving.

From executives’ privilege, to restrictive views of the Freedom of Information Act, increasing use of national security classification, keeping congress away from inquiries, all this was even implemented before 9/11.

Cheney and his secret meetings with his pet and very profitable project the “Energy task force”.

This brings memories of what a totalitarian and perhaps the synonym of dictatorship do when in power.

That is why I refer too and base my opinions.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by Stormrider

Please state, specifically, how zionist jews, neocons and fundamentalist Christians have benefited from this war. I don't think you have anything to back your claims with but empty rhetoric and hot air.

Obviously this won't be apparent till later how they have benefitted , but BBC has already uncovered Israelis in Iraq that made big bucks on "training" the Kurds to protect an airport, and amazingly The Kurds have recently been contracted to build a wall surrounding a minority of people. Small world. I wonder just where they might have learned how to build big huge walls intended for the containment of a minority just like the Israelis have from. LOL

What, the whole Kurdish people have been contracted to build walls? Contracted by whom? And surrounding what minority of people? What group of people in Iraq is more in the minority than the Kurds? They have been massacred and slaughtered by Iraqi military forces under Saddam for decades. So, who are the going to build the walls around?
Themselves? That might be a very smart thing for them to do, thinking about it.

That pipeline from Mosul has been in the works for a long time..they want oil/gas just like the arabs. Its lots of money. The Iranians being sanctioned places them as being the only supplier on the mediterranean. Also another convenience they would just so happen to be the only supplier easily accessible by european countries.

And where does that pipeline go? Right, straight to OPEC and no one in Iraq will ever see a penny for it.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by Stormrider
What the Constitution was talking about was the keeping of a national militia to protect our internal security against forces seeking to overthrow our government as was occuring in France at the time of the Continental Congresses.

I suggest you read the Second Amendment a bit more carefully. Yes, it does establish State Militias, but immediately after that it establishes the Right for the citizens to bear arms as well; The Founding Fathers intent was that the People have at least a last-ditch means to defend themselves from the government itself, if needed. This is the main reason that the government have been sneaking "gun control laws" into the legal structure over the past few decades; They know that the first step to total facism is to disarm the public & it's the same thing that the US Founding Fathers knew too.

I was not disounting that part of the 2nd Amendment, only pointing out that the active-duty armed forces of this country are not appropriate for service as policemen or border patrol officers, they have a totally different mandate as set forth in this country's military history and pointed out that the 2nd amendment decreed a national militia, ie the National Guard, which might be appropriate for border patrol duty but would normally only be used in times of national catastrophe or civil unrest.

I would never try to take the teeth out of the 2nd amendment by denying any american the right to bear arms, for the very reason you stated: we might just need a last ditch defense against our own government.

Originally posted by Stormrider
What, the whole Kurdish people have been contracted to build walls? Contracted by whom? And surrounding what minority of people? What group of people in Iraq is more in the minority than the Kurds? They have been massacred and slaughtered by Iraqi military forces under Saddam for decades. So, who are the going to build the walls around?
Themselves? That might be a very smart thing for them to do, thinking about it.

Well the wall was to be for the Sunni's in Baghdad but I believe they may be scrapping the idea as its come under a lot of criticism. Havent read about this in the news? Or saw threads here about it?


The same way the Kurds are being used to instigate the Iranians now, its quite possible they were used to instigate the Iraqis (Saddam Hussein) the Iranians were also used by Israel during the Iraq/Iran war as well. Confiscated weapons taken during the Lebanon war in 1980's were being distributed to Iranians in the battle against Iraq. It could very well be the Kurds were killed for attempting to go against the government at Israels behest. They want to help make the Kurds independent yet they occupy another mans land and oppress another race of people themselves. How ironic.

Someone in this thread had said that people in this thread are under the impression that if we left Iraq, that there would be peace in the middle east and all would be hunky dory and that they would love Americans. He was being sarcastic of course. Many people that understand the ME conflicts know this is not the case. Its only when we (USA) become the fair and just Police of the world that there will be peace and the people of the ME will love us. We can't be like the wicked stepmother loving our own, showing preference to them openly even when they do wrong and then treating our stepchildren like crap when they do the same exact thing. It doesn't work like that and it never will....anywhere in the world.

Originally posted by marg6043
The Iraqi invasion and liberation was nothing but a lie fed to the American public to hide the true agenda in the middle east. oil.

Where exactly is the resultant oil control? If I recall, it seems to be just the opposite.

Originally posted by Togetic
Where exactly is the resultant oil control?

To make corporate America and the oil barons to have control over the nations that do no have any.

This is not about us, it never has been, we have nothing to benefit from anything, it has never been for the good of the people, but for the holders of wealth and powers.

Check page two of this thread I posted some links to what is going on with the Iraqi oil right now.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by Stormrider
What, the whole Kurdish people have been contracted to build walls? Contracted by whom? And surrounding what minority of people? What group of people in Iraq is more in the minority than the Kurds? They have been massacred and slaughtered by Iraqi military forces under Saddam for decades. So, who are the going to build the walls around?
Themselves? That might be a very smart thing for them to do, thinking about it.

Well the wall was to be for the Sunni's in Baghdad but I believe they may be scrapping the idea as its come under a lot of criticism. Havent read about this in the news? Or saw threads here about it?

You mean this story?:

(CBS/AP) U.S. soldiers are building a three-mile wall to protect a Sunni Arab enclave surrounded by Shiite neighborhoods in a Baghdad area "trapped in a spiral of sectarian violence and retaliation," the military said.

When the wall is finished, the minority Sunni community of Azamiyah, on the eastern side of the Tigris River, will be gated, and traffic control points manned by Iraqi soldiers will be the only entries, the military said.

"Shiites are coming in and hitting Sunnis, and Sunnis are retaliating across the street," said Capt. Scott McLearn, of the U.S. 407th Brigade Support Battalion, which began the project April 10 and is working "almost nightly until the wall is complete," the statement said. Source

I'm sorry, you had the facts so garbled and confused, I wasn't sure what you were referring to? However, from the news story linked above, you can see that the walls are being built by US Soldiers, not Kurds, to protect a small enclave of Sunni homes on the east side of Baghdad and they're building it and gating it to protect those Sunnis from Shia death squads that have been attacking them and have their community virtually surrounded. From what I can find in the news they are not scrapping the plan and the only complaints are coming from the Shia that wan't nothng more than to kill a few more Sunnis.

The same way the Kurds are being used to instigate the Iranians now, its quite possible they were used to instigate the Iraqis (Saddam Hussein) the Iranians were also used by Israel during the Iraq/Iran war as well. Confiscated weapons taken during the Lebanon war in 1980's were being distributed to Iranians in the battle against Iraq. It could very well be the Kurds were killed for attempting to go against the government at Israels behest. They want to help make the Kurds independent yet they occupy another mans land and oppress another race of people themselves. How ironic.

Man, you are really mixed up! The Kurds are the only group in Iraq right now that is sincerely interested in getting things back to normal in Iraq, all the sunni and shia are iinterested in is killing each other whenever possible.
Please, explain to me how the Kurds are being used to instigate the Iranians?
As far as I have been able to determine, the Iranians don't need much in the way of instigation to jump into Iraqs own internal buisness or anyone elses for that matter.

Someone in this thread had said that people in this thread are under the impression that if we left Iraq, that there would be peace in the middle east and all would be hunky dory and that they would love Americans. He was being sarcastic of course. Many people that understand the ME conflicts know this is not the case.

That was my initial point in my very first post in this thread: If we leave Iraq the country will be overrun by Syrian and Iranian forces within a month. Everything that the Iraqis have worked do hard to accomplish in the last several years will be overturned and a new totalitarian government installed.
It reminds me of an old song by the Who, "Don't get fooled again"; remember the last line of the song?"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss"?

Its only when we (USA) become the fair and just Police of the world that there will be peace and the people of the ME will love us. We can't be like the wicked stepmother loving our own, showing preference to them openly even when they do wrong and then treating our stepchildren like crap when they do the same exact thing. It doesn't work like that and it never will....anywhere in the world.

What, so now you're advocating the the US should be the beat cop for the whole world? You might want to reconsider that idea; we're disliked enough by most of the world that trying to break up every fight between bickering neighbors would put our troops in harms way in alot more places than Iraq and Afghanistan. Are you up for that? I didn't think so.

As a new member and proud canadian I would just like to say that a show on the CBC two months ago on the Fifth Estate was entitled the Lies that led to War
well last night on PBS I saw the same show, only american.
anyone who has seen these shows, dispite even losing a loved one in Iraq would realize that there is no good time to pull out.
they went in with nothing but lies, and they knew it, and the entire media backed them up with out a second to check any of the so called "facts"

there is no link between Sudam Hussain and alquida.
there is no WMD
and the gas he used on his people ten years ago was given to him by the USA as was the helicopters he used to spray the Kurds.
then the USA gave him more money the following year...
then ten years later george poorgie brings up this event without relating the USA connnection and then ties it to WMD
what a false circle of false facts
they even took a KURDS word that he had been in Sudams personal WMD areas.
a Kurd?
his sworn enemies?
come on, and not a singe person said "WHAT THE F..."?
THE LIES THAT LED TO WAR DEMAND A QUICK WITHDRAWEL.
more lies and failure to admit the lies and the continued loss of life is dispickable.
now they are trying to link alquadi which is Sunni to the government in Iran which is #e....with the smoking cloud fakeout again

lets not forget Sudam never had any ties with Alquadia...he was a control freak and not about to work with a faction of Sunni terrorist.
not in a million years.


As a canadian I am so proud that our prime minister stood down tony blair and george poorgie....
considering that georgie poorgie said you are either with us or with the terroist and then snubbed canada for several years...when all along he was huge lier and we knew it and stood him down and he had the gall to make closed ended statements like that....reak of his incredible evil nature


[edit on 26-4-2007 by junglelord]

Hey, new here, thought I would finally register and throw in my 2 cents. What a piss poor idea this is... I personally view this as a truce call with all the insurgants and terrorist alike. I could go on and on but I would only be repeating what others here have already said.. One thing that worries me is us cut and running per the democrat idea, and al queada establishing a strong hold in iraq, and having a safe haven, meaning later on down the road we could be back over there fighting again, in the future. We made that mistake in GW1, lets not make the same mistake again.

Originally posted by junglelord

As a canadian I am so proud that our prime minister stood down tony blair and george poorgie....
considering that georgie poorgie said you are either with us or with the terroist and then snubbed canada for several years...when all along he was huge lier and we knew it and stood him down and he had the gall to make closed ended statements like that....reak of his incredible evil nature

Well now, aren't you special!

It seems that now Iraqi President Jalal Talabani has joined his opposition with the Prime Minister Al –Maliki in opposing to the US wall.

Both the US military and the Iraqi authorities appear to have been caught off guard by the hostility the project has sparked among residents in Adhamiya.
Anti-American Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr earlier slammed the plan as "sectarian" and "racist".www.iraqdaily.com...

I guess when it comes to occupations and the countries that are the occupiers the voices of the people and their supposedly democratically elected government are nothing and nobody.

I will give the wall a couple of months until it becomes the target of the Iraqi people unified against the occupation.

Even the people in both sides of the sectarian groups knows by now that their own government is not the one in charge in that nation.

Then still the blinded in America dare to ask why the Iraqi people are so hostile.

Wake up people this is our government spreading democracy and good will.

[edit on 26-4-2007 by marg6043]

marg,

What a bunch of hate filled rhetoric. Our government while not perfect isnt the sole cause of cancer. You, like the enemy, even go as far as to say that our troops are the occupiers. Thats pretty sick and twisted. I cant help but assume that you also are in favor of suicide attacks on the innocent iraqi civilians...Something that US forces are NOT responsible for. Some people need to wake up indeed.

the country is in termoil...alquida can go anywhere...
staying in to stop alquadia is a huge brainwash
the war on terror is a false flag
9/11 is a setup and a hoax
the war in iraq is all based on lies.
two wrongs do not make a right
alquadia cannot attack the USA.
Give me a break
a bunch of cave hiders?
even if they did 9/11, they could not do it again
the war on terror will never end
man is evil.


[edit on 26-4-2007 by junglelord]

Just saw a flash on FNC that the Senate passed the bill as well,


How soon will it go to the WH and be vetoed by Bush?

Originally posted by blueballs
marg,

What a bunch of hate filled rhetoric. Our government while not perfect isnt the sole cause of cancer.

Sure whatever you say . . . is nothing worst than a blind person that its blindness comes from choosing and not from illness.

You will never find me insulting you or anybody just because we disagree on a topic.

Time will show you that while we may not share the same views on this topic . . . is many others that we may just agree with, when the time will come.

Just remember that.

Originally posted by JacKatMtn

How soon will it go to the WH and be vetoed by Bush?

Probably tomorrow. That would be my guess. Although, Bush isn't in the habit of vetos, so we'll just have to see.