The BEE smoking gun

Originally posted by mizzuWe had over 100 hives at one time. Each colony has it's own personality, some being gentle, others being mean as heck, some disease prone, some naturally disease resistant, some lazy, some unbelievably hard working.

I had noticed that too, we only had six at the most but as you say, some of the hives did not want you nearby, at one time a couple "liked" my Dad but not me, some of them you could sit near the door and watch for hours and never be bothered at all - they'd even send a few out to "fan" you or lick up sweat. I would take little bits of watermelon to the hive for them.

As long as you hadn't been drinking the night before. That sets them off something fierce.

Realtruth

Personally, I wouldn't touch the honey from a collapsed hive with a ten foot pole.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Realtruth

Personally, I wouldn't touch the honey from a collapsed hive with a ten foot pole.

I think this is the general consensus out there, we are in the process of steam cleaning all the empty hives, but we may even burn them.

Another thing I believe that could be a possibility is all this GM seeds. Now unless some of you know exactly what I am talking about please don't jumped on me for my theory.

Many GM seeds have what is called Roundup Ready seeds. Roundup is a weed killer so it kills all of the weeds except for the plant. Roundup Ready seed are modified to not be effected by this weed killer, but what some of the major problems that have popped up are something called super weeds,and completely sterile soil with no nitrifying bacterias.

Roundup was originally made as a systemic. What is a systemic? Systemic is when you spray weed killer on a plant it works it way through the limbs to shut down the entire plant by inhibiting a specific enzyme.
Good link to understand more about Roundup and GM seeds.

science.howstuffworks.com...


GM seeds, even thought they yield high crops, I believe are bad because of all of the long term effects due to the tampering.





[edit on 23-4-2007 by Realtruth]

All I know is, except being very worried about this, is that the local university here for some reason is focussing on the cause being amongst others mobile phone usage.

In general about the frequencies we use and such.. We take a lot of care to assign frequencies for certain uses (air traffic coms e.g.), certain companies (radio stations e.g.). And we take a lot of care to make sure a frequency range is unused before assigning it to something. But we never take care to check if maybe nature already has a use for certain frequencies?

Would be so ironic if we (nearly?) go extinct because of say mobile phones.. I don't know if i'd laugh or cry..

Anyway, another bee thread to keep my eyes on.

This bee thing regardless of the cause should be far bigger in the news, I still haven't seen anything much in papers here in holland.
Bee's are so integral to the planet's food supply/eco system (not just us human's) but I hardly see anything written about the problem.

And yup Einstein said we have 4 years if bees die out.
Simple fact is bees are at the very base of food production for a large part of what lives on this planet. They pollinate plants, allowing them to reproduce (better), producing food for herbivores and omnivores, who in turn provide food for carnivores. When they die out it's like pullling the cards out at the bottom of a house of cards.

Also read somewhere (offline) that the cause for the bee problem is a previously unknown mite.

Another one says it's the pesticides we use that aren't as benign on bees as we thought.

btw question, might be dumb dunno, how will gm crops "save" us? they still need to be polinated? another thing is, are we going to supply those gm crops to every part of the planet including 'wild' plantlife? we don't just need 'some' crops for us, to survive we need the planet's eco system to survive.. it's not just us being threatened here, it's the whole world. every higher animal is directly or indirectly dependent on plant life flourishing.

I'm sure the world won't go barren on bee's dissappearing but in the time the eco system needs to rebalance, what will have died out? and how much life will the new balance be able to support?

[edit on 23/4/2007 by David2012]

How many GM crops are grown nowadays in the US? Maybe gm crops are the cause not the cure.. some adverse effect GM crop nectar has on bees?
Just something that popped up in my head.

[edit on 23/4/2007 by David2012]

Tom what do u think about this

“Industrieverbund Mikrobielle Genomforschung” is the core organization there (GERMANY) that conducts local research and testing of new GM food varieties. BASF, Biopract, BRAIN, Degussa, Direvo, Henkel, Milupa, Schering, Südzucker and Wacker are all involved in the Industrieverbund. Bayer Crop Science is the main investor in the organization.

digg.com

bayer turns up in france with the gov't labeling gauncho w/ the ingredient Imidacloprid being the conclusion as the bee death culprit

and monsanto appears to be "an umbrella corportation" for that localized affiliate (Industrieverbund Mikrobielle Genomforschung”)

GUESS who is the MAIN INVESTOR in this german reserach and testing facility?

BAYER the same people that make gauncho w/ the imidacloprid

wow monsanto in bed with bayer surprise surprise


tom what is your opinion


[

[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]

[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]


mod edit, format link

[edit on 23-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Chonx

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
You do know that EM and sound are not the same, not at all?

uh... isn't sound a type of EM radiation at a certain frequency range of the EM spectrum???

Accoustic waves are mechanical waves, not electromagnetic. Transduction is required to convert between the 2. They line up on the same frequency spectrum chart, but it's different forms of energy.

Originally posted by cpdaman
the bee's are dying off rather rapidly and it seems to be a problem focused in the united states that is spreading over to europe and becoming worse

There are still plenty of bees around. And most species go through periods of big die-offs, then bounce back with a tougher genetic mix after the weaker specimens weeded out. It's all about natural selection.

Hopefully it will happen with human beings again soon, although realistically we're all pretty much too old to benefit from it.

GAUCHO appears to be used all over the us in respect to different crops like wheat, barley, , potatoes, soybean and sugarbeets, fruit, vegetables, and


bee's pollinate

(squash and cucum bers), fruits (apples, watermelon, plums, sweet cherries, citrus), nuts (almonds), plants grown for seed (sunflower), and animal feed crops such as clover.

seems like GAUCHO blame by the french is most closely tied to the PRODUCTION of sunflower and maize (CORN) seeds which the french gov't blame's is used by farmers all over the united states for various crops. Guess what BEES collect the pollen from the GM engineered CORN(MAIZE) crops! and sunflowers as well! the use of this seeding eerily coincides with the higher rates of bee depopulation

BINGO

www.beekeeping.com...

many countries like hungary and polant have band MOSANTO maize seeds

the nectar these bee's carry with them from the sunflower and maize plants grown with GAUCHO seeds is then brought back to the hive which then becomes contaminated because it is effected by the the GAUCHO seeds which have the dangerous chemical Imidacloprid ( very dangerous to the bee's ) in levels/concentrations (which recent study's have found when concentrations are as low as 3-16 bbp and possibly as low as .5)

maybe that's why they are abandoning the hive, where the imidacloprid is in the nectar and bee's and the queens want nothing to do with this infected nectar and the hive it is found in



apparently there are many many lawsuits by crop farmers and bee farmers against this corporation for many problems with seeds and death

MONSANTO in bed with BAYER what a couple of greedy lying P.O.S organizations










[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by greatlakes

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Here in SE Michigan I see about the same number of bees every year, including last year. Is this including only domesticated bees?

Any sources for the numbers?

Just my eyes.
I garden, mostly flowers so I am very conscious of the different kinds of bees.
I have no idea of their names.
So far this year, I've seen three of four varieties, including those big, fat, fuzzy ones.
So, are onlt "farmed" bees at risk? Do wild bees have better immune systems and can thus withstand calamites better?



EDIT
wiki on bees and pesticides
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 23-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Realtruth
And yes I live in Michigan.

DontTreadOnMe are you speaking of your own hives? Which part of Michigan are you from? I think it would be interesting to know which parts are affected.

My orchard is in the thumb of Michigan, near Port Huron.

Okay, I'm further south of you at the lower end of Lake St Clair.
I have no lives, just what I see in my garden.
I've noticed differend bees are attracted to different flowers
Just about now, the big, fat, fuzzy bees can be seen looking for early spring flowers. I've seen them this year.
There's another bee I call a hover bee that is short and quite squat. Haven't seen quite as many lat year, but it is unknown if I didn't plant that particular flower, or if the bees aren't around.

Which is why I question if wild bees are more likely to survive.

Originally posted by cpdaman
Tom what do u think about this

bayer turns up in france with the gov't labeling gauncho w/ the ingredient Imidacloprid being the conclusion as the bee death culprit

and monsanto appears to be "an umbrella corportation" for that localized affiliate (Industrieverbund Mikrobielle Genomforschung”)

GUESS who is the MAIN INVESTOR in this german reserach and testing facility?

BAYER the same people that make gauncho w/ the imidacloprid

wow monsanto in bed with bayer surprise surprise

Something along this line is one of my top three worries. Like I said, I've seen new "wonder pesticides" be used on our neighbor's fields when I was a kid and it wiped our bees out totally in a two week span. We just broke the hives down and steamed them out.

I don't think they are testing as well as they could in terms of the side-effects pesticides have on the other insects you don't want to kill.

What would suck big would be if there was a GM that produced a byproduct that was lethal to bees. Something on the order of BT getting in the pollen, only in this case it was something bee-toxic. If you had a gene that was strongly selected for that produced bee-toxic nectar or pollen, and it got into the ecosystem in wild variants like RR genes are doing, we could be in real trouble. Say some company made some sort of weed resistant clover, and it produced a nectar toxic to bees. Then it crosspollinated with the wild clover. That would be a catastrophe.

Or maybe it's not directly toxic, but becomes so when you run it through a bee and it's stored as honey. So maybe your lab testing wouldn't spot it - it doesn't kill bees directly in the lab. Maybe they don't test for toxic metabolites in honey. And maybe that's why other insects don't scavenge.

a few years back a forum of the french were very concerned that the monsanto corp and bayer FUDGED the study regarding the amount (bbp) of toxicity that was "safe"

this was taken from the forum

www.ibiblio.org...



mods but i cant seem to attach the appropriate external quotes if u could assist me

"Moreover, apparently, the
research proving it safe and allowing for registration has turned out -- in
retrospect -- to be tainted, since the control areas had also been treated
several years back and the researchers had neglected to mention that -- even
though the product can be very persistent. I have also seen some some leaked
recent research that shows imidacloprid(e) affects bees at unimaginably low
levels -- levels that have been previously undetectable."

this comes from the OP in the email thread according to some complaints he's heard about from french growers and the frech gov'ts who i beleive were the first to ban this paticular pestiside poison and surprsing this dates over 5 years ago on a forum as an email exchange among those who are bee keepers and talk about how it is virtually unheard of in North america at the time because it's use was very limited, and the (first hand) french research has not been thoroughly transferred to other languages (not to mention american farmers hadn't had to deal with crop loss from this insectiside's yet) but supposed to increase rapidly with in a couple years with it much increased usage. guess what? it has and bees are dead 2+2= 4


regent (fipronil) is also implicated as a chemical that has high toxicity to bee's and is responsible for similiar effects with the soil of (corn) crops but on a smaller scale




[edit on 23-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Are the chemicals with Imidacloprid that farmers use the same strength as the ones consumers use?
I'm guessing that consumers have weaker concentrations of the pesticide?
I KNOW there are consumer products by Bayer that have Imidacloprid...I have been using one unaware of the possible bee issue.

www.bayeradvanced.com...

For those people talking about Electromagnetic radiation and sound - this diagram should be helpful - Electromagnetic Spectrum

As far as radiation causing cancer, have you ever heard the adage that if Nuclear war breaks out, the only survivors will be the cockroaches?. It's reasonably debatable whether or not that would be the case, however the reason behind it is not, Adult insects show very little cell division, which is the point in a cell's life where it's most susceptible to radiation causing it to mutate. It's thought that then these mutations spread into a tumor, and eventually turn iinto cancer in humans. However, in the case of insects, since they have such a small amount of dividing cells compared to mammals, they're far less susceptible to the cancer causing properties of radiation of any kind.

Which is not to say it can't have some other effect, but comparing humans and insects in this case is not really helpful.

I can't find a source for the US bee population declining faster than other countries, other than wikipedia, which I don't really consider a definitive source - en.wikipedia.org...


I'll keep working on that one.

However, I did find this paper (pdf) with some good statistical and other scientific investigations into CCD, definitely worth a read.


Incidentally, whilst looking for statistics on bees, this link came up - www.badscience.net..., an article on bad science and pattern recognition which references the bee/cellphone theory. Probably good reading for quite a few ATS-ers.

Hi, first of all, let me say...interesting stuff. I too, live in France in the heart of the Cognac grape vines and have seen lots of bees so far this (very hot) spring. Bees of all sorts which is reassuring. As a complete novice to apiculture, I am going to throw in some stuff from an outsiders point of view that may seem simple but I believe that all things must be considered.
Is it still traditional for hives to be made from timber? (my late grandfather was the chaiman of the East Devon beekeeping society in UK and I used to watch him constructing his own hives).
How have the materials changed and could there be some cause from more modern materials. Off the shelf products utilising toxic substances and treatments could have adverse effects instead of suspect pesticides or chemtrails from an outide source!
Has anyone considered making a completely inert (as possible) an non absorbant hive? If simple things like this can be ruled out this way, the solution gets easier.
I know if I left my house with the intention of doing something important and had to concentrate really hard on what that was and where I was going to do it I would probably get lost because I focused too hard on what it was I was trying to achieve and where, rather than where I had come from because I was "high" from paint fumes. So rather than going A to B to do C and back to A.....it would be A to B to do C and back to???
Bit like meeting your mates for a beer at bar X and forgeting where you live because your sixth sense was messed up that usually gets you home. So you lie in the gutter and sleep!
I know this may sound silly, but like I said we must consider EVERYTHING.
I confess, I am no scientist so I leave all the complex theories to the experts, but I will keep watching this thread and contribute what I can.
And by the way....stop bitching. If you can't say anything nice, don't say nutin' at all! (google video is for that)
I LOVE BEES AND ALWAY SAY HELLO TO THEM and I want more than Einstiens four years.

Interesting. I saw them talking about this on CNN today in fact.

the bee's could be a blessing in disguise if this continues to be a story (which it will)

public awareness will grow and hopefully people will take note of the companies like monsanto who are staffed by money hungry liars who spout lies as easy as they breathe. but when u push technology that kills off bee's it is a wake up call for people, because as they Additionally try to force 3'rd world nations and small farmers to use there terminator seeds, the dying bee's could gain enough public awareness to say Monsanto ain't about to do this, ain't happening. i am all for feeding the poor but this is a lie or excuse me (a marketing motto that is more than misleading)

take note to see if the merger between monsanto and delta and pine land company which is being reviewed by the department of justice goes through as the announcement is anticipated soon. the consequences of this merger may be nothing short of the beginning of a disaster. (especially for small farmers) the takeover by a multi national corportation that is trying to monopolize and then control ever exanding sectors of the food supply needs to be stopped.

brazil has won there battle so far, but the company has plans for other nations including the US of A

don't buy the company line "it will feed the people" research the results this has already had. despicable



[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]

[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by cpdaman
regent (fipronil) is also implicated as a chemical that has high toxicity to bee's and is responsible for similiar effects with the soil of (corn) crops but on a smaller scale

Fipronil is also used on a lot of yards. Fipronil has the nasty side effect of not just killing the exposed insect, but any insect that touches the exposed insect. Tiny residuals that can be passed by casual contact will disorient and kill insects days later.

It's one of the things that they tout with fipronil roach bait - mere contact with a surface by a dosed insect can leave that surface deadly for days.

So if a number of them brought it back, that fipronil "chain reaction" feature could possibly wipe out the hive.

You have voted Tom Bedlam for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Good posts Tom the first thread on this issue in ATS was here:[
ATS by Loam
But it has taken a while, to hit the mainstream news. I had a quick look at the time, have been pretty convinced it was weather/temp/seasons until now. As stated the fact that the honey is not being raided is the real key to this. I think that the Pesticide from Bayuer seems pretty conclusive due to the french experiences and research.

DontTreadOnMe you said the chemical that may be responsible is now available in consumer products for gardening.... do you know is this a new addition? have you been using that product for more than three years?

Thought you and all her would like this:What Flowers In My Garden To Attract The Bees?
Brilliant guide to the best flowers to attract bees to your garden CMON guys get planting.... help these amazing little guys out....

This IMHO is more important than we all realise.... if it continues and they dont recover. Besides certain algae or plankton a total collapse of the worlds bee population would be around the worst extinctions possible. It would not stop there... and though not to the same effect as the aforementioned an event like this would seriously threaten the entire mammalian (land based unlike the lovely ATS Dolphins]ATS Dolphins[/url]) , and Floral life.

Did you Know?
Bees Pollinate 30% or More of the American Human Food Supply!
save them save yourselves!

The Einstein Quote oft mis quoted is here

Albert Einstein quote: “If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe then man would only have four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man.”

Source
Hey who am I to argue with Einstein Think I will take his word for it


Anyhow I digress I think that pesticide or pollution must be to blame to explain the american experience at the moment. It is doubtful that it is the mite problem as In the November 1998 issue of The American Bee Journal Erickson Et Al published

Varroa-Tolerant Honey Bees Are a Reality

Gov Source
....to save the read it shows that there are natural variations in parasite infestatios in identical and closely placed hives. The low incidence hives seem to have a genetic reason as he cross bred them and reduced infection in other populations.

This though as it is genetic maybe points to the original conspiracy part of the posts on this subject.... that is affected by EM and various emissions... and as recent swedish pubished research has shown a link between the predominant side of the head used for mobile phones... left or right ear... and then a "statistically significant" mmm well its there, liklihood of a tumour then occuring on that side of the head. If you do contract a brain tumour.

Mind you we have thick skulls to help unlike the soft bees! So maybe not the tumours but certainly genetic damage. Maybe.

Some very articulate posters here should not also overlook this area and whats really happening in this field at the moment. I doubt if it would be the phones though as other posters mentioned the differances in frequencies between Europe and the US...
In the UK recently though there hs been a massive change in the EM "spectrum" that is bathing the UK due to Tetra a new British Government £2.5 billionish programme to transmit the new emergency services communications.
No one in the UK could have missed (though most wouldnt ask WTF) the new towers that have popped up in nearly every estate or a block in the US. They are planning a new 30,000 of these microwave transmitters and it looks like most are up and working. Notice microwave... it can travel through homes exteriors and shielding effectively. They state that it only transmits on 380-400 Mhz pulsed at 17.6 Hz.
However the design allows the technology to also act in a passive way as scanners (phones, wireless etc maybe posible chip or implant Techhnology in future) and up to 3000Mhz... well im sure anyone out there who knows anything about the EM field thinks Yikes...

Microwave cookers work at 2450 ish I think? around there below 3000 anyhow.

CDPman and Tom Bedlam look up Project Pandora in the US published peer reiewed research on this out there. Its where the whole behaviour modification and weaponisation of the EM spectrum started.Published and peer reviewed double blind trailed work by Dr Adey The Brain Research Institute at the University...I Think calif...in the 80's. He has found and proven a carrier wave (147MHz field if elf amplitude modulated to the microwave carrier wave at 6-20Hz) This will integrate itself with the consciousness or vibrational/frequency of a normal adult brain activity. Then like hypnosis a seperate wave can be added to make the desired frequency change in the EEG acivity of the targets brain. You can make people Happy, Sad, Suicidal, Angry, Apathetic, Depressed whatever.

This is proven and old research from 25 years ago. I feel it may be a little naive to totally discredit what things such as HARP and other unkown projects might be capable of.

Certainly if the environment has been shown to have been polluted with these invisible pollutants for over 30 years covertly, im sure an side effect of similair proportions to loosing the bee population is certaily not beyond the realms of posibility. Especially as

The anthers of tomatoes will only release their pollen when they are vibrated at around 400 Hz. The bumblebees do this by grabbing hold of the anthers and vibrating their flight muscles without moving their wings.

BumbleBees.Org well

maybe its not the bees being affected, but they are starving to death…from a similair vibtrational pollutional affecting other pollen sources. Has anyone noticed a lack of honey?

I mention this here as I mention some stuff below about Pandora… we don’t really know as much as we think we do so sometimes the strangest answer is right, Tom?




[edit on 23-4-2007 by MischeviousElf]

Continued....

Maybe many here do need to re examine their "paradigms" in review of proven but worrying material, however also some may need to know their "subject" before telling others to transcend their own paradigms, when there own one is maybe slightly right but not of any depth. guidance, start at Woodpecker then Pandora then Grill Flame Then Tetra. Interesting and important for all really.

Also though I don’t at all agree that it is the NWO doing this... I wouldn’t put it past Monsanto... the ultimate control is to control the worlds food supply, total monopoly and more money than gates and Forbes and Rothschild all put together in a couple of years!

Though looking really closely at the ties with the company and the most powerful people on earth… well they are the best placed company in the world…. Did you know that for example

Linda Fisher, Deputy Director, EPA is actually the ex V.P. Of Monsanto & chief lobbyist !! WTF a director of the EPA!!
And the list goes on Rums field, and as bad as the first Ann Veneman, Sec. of Agriculture is on the Boardd. of Dir. Calgene Pharmaceuticals, owned by Monsanto!!!

So who knows? I know someone who did a Thesis on Bees and Behaviour I have emailed him and when he gets some inside feel will post it here however In the meantime

almost every European tomato is the result of a vibratory embrace of a bumblebee!

My cheese and tomato sandwich will never be the same again!

Bumblebees are also used to pollinate aubergines and peppers, cabbage and carrot for seeds, kiwi fruits, strawberries, courgettes, aubergines, sweet peppers, cranberries, blueberries and tomatoes for fruit

www.bumblebee.org...

Honey bees can fly up to 14 kilometres from their nest in search of food. Usually, however, they fly one or two miles away from their hive to forage on flowers.

and even more amazingly

Honey bees must consume about 17-20 pounds of honey to be able to biochemically produce each pound of beeswax.

Source

Walter Haefeker, the German beekeeping official, speculates that “besides a number of other factors,” the fact that genetically modified, insect-resistant plants are now used in 40 percent of cornfields in the United States could be playing a role. The figure is much lower in Germany — only 0.06 percent

source “speigel newspaper”

Maybe just maybe looking at all this information now we can surmise the following.

I like Honey Very Much!

Bees are very very important for the types of life we interact and see, smell, eat and use every day

Bees are cool, friendly and downright Amazing things!

It does not seem to be a Parasite/disease

World governments have been playing with our minds for over 30 years they are probably doing it more and with more advanced techniques! They do this by using Microwave, ELF and Radio transmissions why wouldn’t it affect the bees?

EM waves and mobile transmissions have been shown in humans and rats to at the very least influence cancer growth/genetic makeup…get out the handsfree now guys!!

Einstein was a Clever I mean really really really so very really clever guy and we should listen to him!

Monsanto are bent on world domination of the food market and have paid or previous relationships with most of the US government.

Pesticides are bad we should all go with pesticidefreeyards.org...

Monsanto might even be evil? Evil Monsanto?

I want the bees back!


Kind Regards

Elf
MischeviouslyDefendingBeesAndBiodiversity

Your answer. Yes wild bees are stronger most of the time and a bit more aggressive than domesticated European breeds, but they still succumb to mites, and everything else domestic bees do. The wild bees you see are mainly strays and crossbreeds from domesticated varieties. Kind of like wild dogs and cats, muts and everyone knows how long they live.

I don't think everyone should panic just yet, but when it starts to effect over 50% of farm production people better take notice, because not only is it effecting the plants, but food sources and availability and prices.

Actually the strongest, toughest, highest producer of honey in the bee family is the African Killer Bees some call them, but I think that is unfair, which were genetically modified by South American scientist in the late 50's.

Here is a good summary on them and yes I have seen them and experienced them first hand. Wow! I saw a wild hive that had at least 300 pounds of honey.

African (Killer) Bees


Michigan State Info on Honey Bees

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by Realtruth
And yes I live in Michigan.

DontTreadOnMe are you speaking of your own hives? Which part of Michigan are you from? I think it would be interesting to know which parts are affected.

My orchard is in the thumb of Michigan, near Port Huron.

Okay, I'm further south of you at the lower end of Lake St Clair.
I have no lives, just what I see in my garden.
I've noticed differend bees are attracted to different flowers

Just about now, the big, fat, fuzzy bees can be seen looking for early spring flowers. I've seen them this year.
There's another bee I call a hover bee that is short and quite squat. Haven't seen quite as many lat year, but it is unknown if I didn't plant that particular flower, or if the bees aren't around.

Which is why I question if wild bees are more likely to survive.