The BEE smoking gun

Thanks Tom for giving the most credible explanation to what is occuring with the bees.

All the other explanations don't seem to take into account the untouched/fouled honey that is left behind. If it is Chemtrails, why the sudden increase and the evidence should be in the honey correct? If there is no increase in other chemical compounds in the honey the mite/virus explanation stands up very well and probably can be tested for.

As for the Cell phone / HAARP explanation, bees navigate by the sun and Cell phone use hasn't dramatically shot up. In fact the countries the the most cell phone use per sq mile (probably Japan, just guessing) should have the biggest bee die off. That does not seem to be the case.

I'm gonna suggest members read the following topics before posting further:
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Please discuss the topic and not each other.
This discussion does take the bee disappearance from a different angle, but if the posts continue to include snide remarks and personal attacks, it will be closed.

Please if anyone finds relevant articles pertaining to this anomaly please post the info, links, because it will be much appreciated.

Tom the honey issue bothers me to no end. I am in the process of sending a full rack to Michigan State University for analysis. I need to know what the heck is going on. I am going to have them do a break down for chemical, heavy metal, bacteria, etc.

We need all the info we can get.

Michigan State...I am guessing you live in Michigan? Here in SE Michigan I see about the same number of bees every year, including last year. Ia this including only domesticated bees?


[edit on 22-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Michigan State...I am guessing you live in Michigan? Here in SE Michigan I see about the same number of bees every year, including last year. Ia this including only domesticated bees?

[edit on 22-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Any sources for the numbers?

Realtruth:

Your sending only the rack for analysis? What about some of the affected bees, if they are available? I wondered what the state of the honey was from any affected bees would be. Let us know the findings when they come in please.

[edit on 22-4-2007 by greatlakes]

Originally posted by Realtruth
Here is another extremely good thread in regards to Bee disappearance/die off.

It got 25 flags and has a lot of excellent input and information.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I have been in the apiculture for many many years, as a hobby and have a certification in beekeeping. Honeybees are some of the most interesting, intelligent and gentle creatures on this planet.

Honestly, we are all stumped as to what the heck is going on, but it's like they are just disappearing and leaving all there honey, in the hives. Honeybees leaving honey in hives is completely against how they operate, because when bees decide to leave a hive and swarm they will take most or all of the honey with them to the new location. If the bees were sick you would find many dead ones in and around the hives, but this is not the case.

Strange and very significant IMO.

Okay im just gonna spitball here but maybe the bees are being abducted by another lifeform? Humans get abducted so why not bees? I'm sure stranger things have happened in this wonderous universe that we live in.

Could the loss of bees have anything to do with China? With the "mistake" they made with pet foods, is it a wonder that maybe something that is used in crops is somehow tied? Real left field but thought I would throw it out there.

Originally posted by thedangler
I dont buy the cell phone tower claim. for one Europe is way more advanced with cell phones then america. They have way more towers and way more cell phones then we do.

by logic if it was because of cell phone radiation, it would have started in europe first, were the concentration is way higher.

just my thoughts

I live in europe (FRANCE) and the problem is not just in america, it is very noticable here in France. For the story, I live in the countryside like lost from everything, and bees and wasps scare the # out of me (we are all scared of something lol) And in the past two years I hardly have any bees come and bother me, I also like taking photos of bees, but I can never find any now, so I belive there is a real problem but I dont know what. As I said I live far out in the countyside, we are not touched by any of this monsantos hormonal s**t in my area yet, so i'am not certain that that is the reason, I don't live near a phone tower i've got a really bad gsm reception, there are quite a few chemtrails, there' is an army base not to far. But I think it's more probably a disease.

Good work Tom.

Pseudoscience is a great pain to many that would pursue controlled methods. Especially when you change the conditions so much that they are no longer relevant.

Flawed internet experiements deserve the big .

You have voted Tom Bedlam for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Great bunch of posts.

The number one argument against the issue of cell phones and bees, is the simple fact that, if this were the case, Europe should be affected far worse by CCD than the US. The US has far fewer cellphone users per square mile than Europe does. Towers themselves, in the US, are most habitually located close to major highways, also, which I would assume is not all that common a place to keep bees, though I'm not sure about that (I am sure about the location, I used to work for a company whose sole purpose was to construct cell towers, from finding locations to building and leasing space on the towers - www.crp.com... has a brief description, though it looks like the company itself has collapsed since I left there, but I post that to prove my credentials on this particular subject, since I was witness to various different stages of construction, from "There's a dead spot on this map, let's find someone we can negotiate land for a tower space" to "Ok, this is what the construction crew reported on the foundation design for this particular tower, and this is the autocad file of the construction document we want you to put in your report")

Towers tend to have a minimum of 4 carriers on each, but since a tower is essentially located based upon geographical distances from other towers, it follows that the density of towers in the US v Europe are likely to be roughly the same.

So, if the bee disorder were based upon cellphones themselves, and cellphones in use, the density of cellphone users in the US is lower than that of Europe, so Europe would see a higher proportion of bee disappearance/death.

If it were based upon the towers themselves, density of towers would be roughly the same, and thus bee disappearance/death would be proportional between US/Europe

Instead, we're seeing that generally, the US is losing a higher percentage of it's overall bees. This suggests that, unless cellphone usage is actually helping European bees survive, it's not having any effect at all.

There is only one caveat, which since I no longer work in the industry I'm just going to offer this up. Historically, once the early adoption of cellphones in the US had passed, Europe was actually leading the technology - about 10 years ago or so, cellphones and text messages were much cheaper in Europe because the infrastructure was more advanced and sophisticated. The US has been lumbered with the original more antiquated technological infrastructure. However, the only caveat I could see to the basic density/loss equations I posted above, would be if there were some specific new technology with regards to new bandwidth/frequencies being used that were more proliferate in the US than in Europe. That's pretty much the only way I could see the US bees dying off faster due to some cellphone related issue.

I think it's unlikely, but I posted for the sake of completeness.

Originally posted by Inannamute

Instead, we're seeing that generally, the US is losing a higher percentage of it's overall bees. This suggests that, unless cellphone usage is actually helping European bees survive, it's not having any effect at all.

Have you got a source that proves that ? As I said above (which is just a personal observation) I see at the most 10 bees during summer, a couple of years back they buzzed around everywhere ! And I live in the asshole of the world in the countyside of France, around my place there are garden full of flowers everywhere !


[edit on 23-4-2007 by WeSbO]

To all those who think that cellphones, telephone masts and other techno gadgets have no effect on health, then I suggest you read the following links and do some serious research on the subject of EMF radiation.

IF EMF radiation can cause cancer in humans, who knows what effect its having on other animals including bees.

dailymail.co.uk

omega.twoday.net...

dailymail.co.uk

One thing I do know is that invisible EMF radiation causes stress and fatigue. Ever tried sitting in front of a Huge 21" CRT for more than a couple of hours. It's like being cooked alive . Personally I cant even stand being in front of a CRT for more than 10 mintues. They just completely zap your energy and hurt your eyes. Hence the reason I changed over to a TFT which has considerably lower EMF radiation emissions.

Whats happening to the bees is serious and I hope the issue is addressed and a solution found and not simply buried because of human ignorance.

news.yahoo.com...
www.csmonitor.com...
www.netlink.de...



[edit on 23-4-2007 by kindred]



mod edit, format links

[edit on 23-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

at the beginning of this thread i stated i didn't have all the answers but that something needed to be done

besides the things i posted about (HAARP) which may not have a significant effect on bees ( while remaining entirely essential for silent wars technology) the fact remains bee's are dying off fast and it is not something ordinary

I apologize to TOM, for coming off the way i did

so TOM what do you think about

GUACHO pesticide made by BAYER it seems the french gov't officially blame's this pesticide that was being sprayed on first sunflowers to be consistent with the bee-die off and that the pesticide remained in the soil up to 3 years after the spraying stopped, on top of that (in my understanding) it continued to be sprayed on maize-seeds ( GAUCHO), the french literature points to Imidacloprid as the ingredient/chemical in GAUCHO

www.dailykos.com...


so now (as i search) does/did bayer spray pesticide's with the ingredient Imidacloprid in the united states a couple years ago

i understand merit 75 also has the same chemical Imidacloprid

so bee people what pesticide has imidacloprid in it that has just recently been in use in the united states over the last few years

[edit on 23-4-2007 by cpdaman]

I beelieve that the chemtrails that are beeing sprayed above the Earth are responsible for the decline of the bee population. If you look back the bees just did not start disappearing they have been declining for about 10 years this is about the time the chemtrails started appearing.

My oppinion is when the bees go we go just look at the Manatees dieing off from pollution in our waters. Yes the bees are effected by pesticides, insecticides and herbicides. But Beelieve it or not you will find the chemtrails as one of the biggest contributors of the decline of the bees. Rik Riley

Originally posted by greatlakes

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
They're not returning to the hive, apparently, because as I understand it, they don't find an unusual number of dead bees in/around the deserted hives. You always find SOME, it's a normal bee thing.

We aren't talking about a few bees here and there like you allude to, this is a large scale bee dieoff

I'm not alluding to anything in that statement. Try taking a deep breath, stepping back and reading it.

The bees are not returning to their hives. They don't find an unusual number of dead bees around those hives.

These are both true.

The bees are not returning to their hives, because if they did, they'd be there, dead or alive.

Ok. Now you can proceed to your next point.

edit: snide comment

[edit on 23-4-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by cpdaman
what would be the clues to you that it might not be mundane?

oh and mundane is great adjective it means

1. ordinary: commonplace, not unusual, and often boring

wow seems to describe the rapid decline of the bee population at levels never before matched (you are really clinging to find a answer that fits with your current beleifs)

Yes, I know what it means.

The cause of it is most likely mundane, because like it or not, most die-offs are some sort of insecticide, virus or mite. It's not usually that the Zetans have decided that bee-goo is just right on space toast, or that wormholes are sucking them in. I know things like this are a lot more exciting, but sadly, most bad things that happen to bees tend to be mold, bug spray, or parasites.

Now, mundane causes can have catastrophic effects. Badly hardened parts in a steering linkage can cause a school bus full of 6 year olds to die. That's not mundane, but bad hardware is. Because you'd be saying that the bus was wrecked by scalar weapons or something. That's where we differ.

i was seriously asking you if you think the fact that 700 ss nazi soldiers beng smuggled into the us being placed in positions of influence NASA CIA DOD whose work i'm sure was being studied closely and being taught from (jointly worked on with) , picked up where they left off had a big effect on certain nefarious undertakings (these are the people who were involved with the HOLOCAUST given position of influence inside the united states HELLO

Wow, could you put in all the words, some punctuation and maybe break the flow up into logical blocks next time instead of this Joycian stream-of-conciousness mess? Thanks.

You really need to work some government projects for NASA or DOD. I can tell you where the Nazis' only influence is that remains - the guys in charge of paperwork, and the ones that are in charge of your SCIF security. They even say "Show us your papiss" just like a bad WW2 movie.

pretty weak they infested an organization and those who picked up there work and/or worked beside them are influencing well (what do NASA the CIA and DOD) influence oh ya not much nothing to see here either

So, you think what, that they were holding occult seances with the brass and running Hitler-Jugend camps with the NCO's kids? Come on, be serious.

edit: toned down


[edit on 23-4-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by Realtruth
I have been in the apiculture for many many years, as a hobby and have a certification in beekeeping. Honeybees are some of the most interesting, intelligent and gentle creatures on this planet.

Honestly, we are all stumped as to what the heck is going on, but it's like they are just disappearing and leaving all there honey, in the hives. Honeybees leaving honey in hives is completely against how they operate, because when bees decide to leave a hive and swarm they will take most or all of the honey with them to the new location. If the bees were sick you would find many dead ones in and around the hives, but this is not the case.

Strange and very significant IMO.

Again, this is where the investigation should begin. Or at least it's a reasonable place to start.

As I understand it, it's not even a proper swarm where you see them forming up for a day or two prior to departure. They're just leaving.

Now, as I was saying upthread about Toxaphene, we saw something that looked just like this. No swarm, they just were GONE, leaving the queen. That's because the Toxaphene killed a lot of them off right away but also disoriented them. They couldn't get back.

The phenomenon of leaving the honey is a good key point. If the other insects aren't taking it, what's in it? That's where the "cell phone waves" issue hits the rocks as far as I'm concerned. That abandoned honey tells you something.

Another thing - and this one would be way out for me - is that some new chemical may not be poisonous per se, but may be imitating a bee pheromone. Maybe they think their queen is right over the next hill. A bee acts very differently depending on what the queen is putting out in terms of pheromones. During a swarm, the queen makes them almost docile. I've seen Dad reach in there and pick the swarm up to put it in a new hive without getting much in the way of stings. I never had the cojones.

That doesn't explain the abandoned honey, nor the failure of the other bees to retrieve it.

I think that's the crux. What's in the honey that other bees or scavengers won't touch it? Any hypothesis has to answer that question, because it seems to be a constant.

cpdaman: I will tone down the snarkage. I just think the obvious should be ruled out first. I'm not sure how HAARP makes honey go bad. But Gaucho could, or some other nicotinoid. Or maybe it's the combo of a couple of things, those are really hard to figure out. Like Monsanto RoundupReady AND some new insecticide. Or one of the BT plants and an insecticide. Or a new virus just come in from South America - China is reporting some bee lineages are immune to the colony collapse.

[edit on 23-4-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

In the past two years I have lost more than 50% of my hives. I don't have that many but they are used in my orchard. I have around 10 acres of fruit trees and I have about 15 hives.

Domesticated bees have been taking a butt whipping for the passed 25 years due to mite, foul brood, fungus, but especially the mites. Now this new issue? Everyone is stumped around the world, this is not just happening here in the USA.

And yes I live in Michigan.

DontTreadOnMe are you speaking of your own hives? Which part of Michigan are you from? I think it would be interesting to know which parts are affected.

My orchard is in the thumb of Michigan, near Port Huron.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Michigan State...I am guessing you live in Michigan? Here in SE Michigan I see about the same number of bees every year, including last year. Ia this including only domesticated bees?


[edit on 22-4-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

[edit on 23-4-2007 by Realtruth]

You can bet your bottom dollar that this is eventually going to be blamed on man made pollution.

The Bee's are dying so we have to put the congestion charge up , bring in motor way tolls and energy consumption will have to be managed.

But were still gonna charter thousands of planes to spray the sky's every day.