The Dead Shall Rise First?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, some Christians, such as the Jehovah's witnesses and others, don't believe in a spiritual afterlife. They claim that when we die, we just lay and wait for this "physical resurrection." I don't personally believe that, but some do. Perhaps this is part of the reason they believe such things.

I hope that isn't true, what do you just lay in your coffin for 3k years? Pretty boring, and what about the people who get creamated? Are they just screwed?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Our soul doesn't go anywhere. It dies with the body because it is nothing more than the emotional body trapped in physicality. The spirit, breath of God, is forever.

You might want to consider what Ecclesiastes 3:18 - 20 states regarding the Spirit of Man & of Beast.

19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.

This makes it clear to me that the spirit of man & beast face the same eventuality at death. There is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die.
Or Psalms 146:4

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”

The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ru′ach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ru′ach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.

Your reference to Jehovahs Witnesses as a cult reminds me of the Scripture at Acts 28:22 where the leading Jews disparingly referred to Christianity as a Sect.





[edit on 22-4-2007 by Sparky63]

How bout' the idea that none of this is true. The bible is wrong and no one rises. Dust to Dust.

Originally posted by tator3
How bout' the idea that none of this is true. The bible is wrong and no one rises. Dust to Dust.

But there's no fun in that. A real party killer, a reply like that.

I think it's far more interesting to find out what is the genuine belief of the Catholic church, and what implications it holds.

Originally posted by redseal


I hope that isn't true, what do you just lay in your coffin for 3k years? Pretty boring, and what about the people who get creamated? Are they just screwed?

Redseal, very good questions. It seems that many of the professed "Christians" that are posting on this board are not offering any more hope than an athiest would. They'd argue, "Well, when Jesus comes back we will have eternal life." Seems like a mighty long wait to me. It's all a moot point for me because I believe in a SPIRITUAL afterlife, not some point in the distant future.

There are many beliefs within each system whether the 7 years of tribulation are going to start after the "Dead in Christ rise" or is there a middle place ? Which alot of Catholics that I have met believe that there is a stairway between heaven and hell that if you are just Mediocre you will be places for eternity. I have been taught Revelation 3:14-16 ... So I do not really believe in those things myself.

But who are we to be doing any of this judging or deciding. I promise God is omnipotent and has had this plan for years and years and nothing that we can think about or even dream of is going to make heaven any more Less pretty. Can you imagine streets of Gold ?

Much less a gate made of a PEARL ???

And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl:

Originally posted by emjoi
Saints are given a free pass direct to Heaven, however. If they didn't, how could you play to them? And how could they perform miracles?

Saints are a blast. Did you know that Albinus (Aubin) is the patron saint of protection from pirate attacks?

Anyway, not a Catholic myself... Not an anything, really...

But I've been in and out of enough southern Protestant churches in my life to know that the verses in the topic at hand are often used in sermons regarding the supposed rapture (facetiously, a period when we're sort of chilling out and eating well somewhere in the sky, while everyone else gets seven years of just atrocious luck). I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned more explicitly yet -- it's a pretty common teaching down here. Believers can't seem to agree on whether or not the resurrection of the body occurs during the rapture (some people seem to think that physical forms will become spiritual instead) or when the rapture itself actually occurs. Wikipedia has a reasonable article on it, but for a non-WP source, try www.religioustolerance.org....

/tn.


[edit on 23-4-2007 by teleonaut]

The reason I haven't mentioned the "rapture" is because I don't believe in it. There have been many threads on this subject at ATS... Here is one that I posted a while back, got quite a response.

LaHaye's Theology

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The reason I haven't mentioned the "rapture" is because I don't believe in it. There have been many threads on this subject at ATS... Here is one that I posted a while back, got quite a response.

I am unsure why you feel the need to defend yourself for your silence. My surprise should in no way reflect on the knowledge of you or anyone else.

What I am saying is that there is a significant number of people who believe that the verses in the OP specifically address that event, and not the order of operations involved in dying, per se. It seems relevant to bring that up here, regardless of why you personally may have opted not to speak of it. Because of the relevance to this thread that I perceive, and because I do comment on things regardless of my belief in them or their existence elsewhere in the universe, I am mentioning it.

/tn.

Anyone mind if we vear of course alittle and dip if you will into what is coming for all of us one day ???



If so read on ; if not why are you reading this ?


No Man Knows the Day & Hour!

by Lyn Mize

(Mark 13:32 KJV) But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

This one Scripture verse is the only verse that numerous Christians can quote regarding Bible prophecy and the return of Jesus Christ for his bride. This verse is often quoted and then the Christian states “Therefore, we do not need to concern ourselves with the time of Jesus’ return.” The next verse in this passage is not quoted and is completely ignored by the majority of Christians. It is as follows:

(Mark 13:33 KJV) Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Therefore, the majority of Christians use verse 32 above as an excuse for ignoring Bible prophecy, and especially the Scriptures that pinpoint the time of Jesus’ return for those Christians who are diligently watching and praying for the return of Jesus Christ for his bride.

The majority of Christians alive today are among the Five Foolish Virgins who are asleep in regard to the return of Jesus Christ. They are neither interested in nor concerned about the time of Jesus’ return. Therefore, they will be among the Five Foolish Virgins who will be awakened at the Midnight Cry, and will be caught unawares when Jesus comes as a thief to them. Jesus will come as a thief to the Sardis church. The Sardis church represents the Protestant churches that came out of the Reformation. This includes Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches. Please note what Jesus had to say to the Sardis church:

(Rev 3:1-3 KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. [2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. [3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This should be clear. Sardis Christians are not watching for the return of Jesus, and Jesus will come upon them as a thief. They will not know the day and hour of Jesus’ return because THEY DID NOT WATCH.

The great majority of Christians are virtually ignorant on the Scriptures that deal with Bible prophecy and the return of Jesus Christ for his bride. They are primarily ignorant about the three aspects of Jesus’ return as Bridegroom, Lord and King. He will first return at midnight for his bride. This is when He returns as a thief to the majority of the Church. He will then return as Lord to remove the Main Body of the Church who was asleep at the first aspect of his return. Jesus will then return as King to the Jews and Gentiles who are saved during the tribulation period. The three aspects of Jesus’ return will be sequential and will take place respectively at the beginning, middle and end of the seven-year tribulation period.

The bride of Christ is among the Five Wise Virgins who are watching and beckoning for the return of Jesus. The Main Body of Christians is among the Five Foolish Virgins, totally disinterested in the prophetic Scriptures. The “evil servant” who delays the return of the Bridegroom in his own mind represents the Main Body of Christians. The following passages of Scripture distinguish the faithful and WISE servant from the evil servant:

(Mat 24:40-42 KJV) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It is absolutely critical for Christians to understand that the two in the field and the two women at the mill are ALL CHRISTIANS. The only difference between them is that one is WATCHING and the other is NOT WATCHING. The passage continues as follows:

(Mat 24:43-44 KJV) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The “house” in verse 43 above is the household of faith (i.e., the Church). “The goodman of the house” represents the pastors and leaders in the Church. If the Church pastors and leaders had known in which watch the thief would come, they would have been ready and not allowed the Church to be split up. This prophecy will be fulfilled. The Thief will come and remove that which is most valuable to him. That will be the bride of Christ. The remainder of the Church will be “cut asunder” or separated in accordance with the remainder of this passage of Scripture:

(Mat 24:45-50 KJV) Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, (i.e., separate him) and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The evil servant represents Christians caught up in the cares of this world, and they are not watching and beckoning for the return of the Bridegroom. They actually delay the return of the Bridegroom in their own minds, since they are NOT longing for his return. They will be separated at the Firstfruits Rapture. The following are actual quotes from Sardis Christians in regard to the return of Jesus Christ:

“I hope it doesn’t happen too soon. I want to get married and have children first.”

“There is a part of me that hopes it does happen soon.”

“We should not be praying for Jesus to return. We have too many people we have to save first.”

“I hope it doesn’t happen too soon. I want to sell some more asphalt plants first.”

“No man knows the day or hour, so we should not concern ourselves with the time of Jesus’ return.”

The above statements represent the primary attitude of Sardis Christians, and they are all in complete opposition to what the Christian’s attitude should be in regard to the return of Jesus.

(2 Tim 4:8 KJV) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Exactly

May the Lord bless u

------------------------------
Fear not those who kill u and after can do no more; Fear him who after death is able to cast both body and soul to into hell.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by GJIML]

reply to post by FlyersFan


we are assuming that paradise here is Heaven as in the popular understanding. However Paradise is

Paradeisos= a garden, pleasure ground
grove, park

has it origin in the word Pardec

Pardec = park, preserve, enclosed garden, forest.


there is also abundant scripture that shows us that the died are awaiting resurrection here on earth.


1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept

Acts 26:23 KJV

That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Revelation 1:5 KJV

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Colossians 1:18 KJV

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

The story of Lazarus has multiple implications, one of which Jesus will physically resurrect us from our grave here on earth. Jesus even states that he will go and wake him.

John 11:11-14 & 23,24 KJV

11 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28 KJV

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Matthew 27:52 KJV

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church,

Sermon on the Parable of Lazarus: "It is, indeed, very generally supposed that the souls of good men, as soon as they are discharged from the body, go directly to heaven; but this opinion has not the least foundation in the oracles of God. On the contrary our Lord says to Mary, after the resurrection, ‘Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father.’"


david

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rren
According to Scripture, the dead are 'asleep' not in heaven/hell/wherever . . . yet.

That's one interpretation.

Of course - Christ Himself promised the repentant thief who was crucified next to him that he would be in paradise THAT DAY with him.

And of course - in Revelation we find the saints already in heaven talking to God - and that's BEFORE the Second Coming.

So the notion that the dead are asleep .... there is direct contradiction of that in the bible.

No, it is not a contradiction of the Bible. When the Greek was written, there was no punctuation. Christ didn't say to the thief that he would be with him THAT DAY in paradise. When it was translated into English, the punctuation was added later and the order of the words was changed. In the greek it says : "Verily to you am I saying today with Me shall you be in paradise". Notice the difference? He isn't saying he would be with him in paradise THAT DAY, he is saying "to you I am saying today, with me you shall be in paradise." He was giving him a promise, that day. As someone else has already pointed out, Christ himself didn't even go to paradise that day, he went to the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.

Also, when we read of saints symbolically talking in heaven, what is God's reply to them?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yes, the dead do sleep until the return of Christ, some even longer...

REVELATION 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by redseal


I hope that isn't true, what do you just lay in your coffin for 3k years? Pretty boring, and what about the people who get creamated? Are they just screwed?

Redseal, very good questions. It seems that many of the professed "Christians" that are posting on this board are not offering any more hope than an athiest would. They'd argue, "Well, when Jesus comes back we will have eternal life." Seems like a mighty long wait to me. It's all a moot point for me because I believe in a SPIRITUAL afterlife, not some point in the distant future.

Is going to sleep at night a long wait? You barely notice it, and that's when you're alive. After all, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It will be as if you closed you eyes, and simply opened them one second later.

Sounds like a good George Romero's movie to me. Great stuff. More than likely he knows more than the Bible does about the sleeping dead getting preference. Always a hoot reading the local rumors here!

1 thess 4 (antonym and anagram antonym translation and sound like translation)

15Against *that* we hear away from you inside (or: through) the word of the Lord, *this* we whose zero are dead (or: 'a record') minus depart away from the departing (or: taking) of the Lord I will command still let them whose zero are awake.

16Against the Lord her body I will command ascend to hell with a whisper, with the voice of the arch-angle (or: arch-glean), minus with the trump of God: minus the alive (or: living) out (or: by) Anti-Christ I will command fall (or: lower) last:

17Now we whose zero are dead (or: 'a record') minus depart 'I will command' act tossed down apart (or: 'away from get him') with them out (or: by) the clouds, away from ajourn the Lord out (or: by) the air: minus so I will command we 'still ever' act with the Lord.

^^The Lord ascends to hell each time the Lord hears the bothersome whispers of the devil. The Lord doesnt go to Hell (the place). Whenever anyone or anything of anyone acts hellish to you you ascended to hell who is a person.

The person set to vanish doesnt end up in Hell or with hell. The person goes to the wedding of paradise.



[edit on 20-7-2008 by Mabus]

I believe at the time of death we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. No purgatory ect. However, our bodies which decay and are not fit for "eternity" therefore at the time mentioned by Paul, I think the bodies of believers who have gone before are united with their soul. Believers still alive are somehow transformed or changed into a body that can enter heaven and persist there.
This event described is more commonly called the rapture.

Jesus said,"no one comes to the Father but through me." And He said "I am the way, the truth and the life." The man was killed in a horrific way by his own people, he was beaten by savage guards, humiliated, scourged, had a crown of thorns driven into his hear with the butt of a spear, forced to carry a heavy cross out of Jerusalem and up a hill, where his body was spiked to that same cross. A spear was thrust into his side to insure He was dead. Those spikes were removed from His body, inflicting even more damage to it and carried off by women and old men. The body "supposedly" lay in the tomb of Joseph of Arimethea from near sunset friday to near dawn on sunday, a period of roughly 36 hours. Adam and Eve spent nearly a thousand years each, repenting their sin and it wasn't enough. A day with God is a thousand years with man. Jesus said. " If you destroy this temple, on the third day, I will cause it to be raised up. The body of Christ is important because it contained the "way" to the Father. Golgotha was also the final resting place of the head of Adam, the blood of Christ flowed down from the cross, through the rocky soil and onto Adam's brow, thereby sanctifying Him and relieving Him of his burden of sin. The body of the Christ needed to be hidden from the wrath of fallen angels and djinn and power seeking humans. The only place to hide the sanctity of the Christ was within the Sanctity of Adam Golgotha is a graveyard and the spirits of the dead gravitated to the Christ so that when He was resurrected, those who dwelt within Him were resurrected as well, thus fulfilling the prophecy.."and the dead in Christ shall be raised first."

reply to post by debris765nju


If all the righteous were raised from the dead and went to heaven with Christ, then why did Peter say that King David (a man who God himself called "a man after mine own heart"), even after Jesus was risen from the dead, was still in the grave, and not ascended to heaven?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

"For David is not ascended into the heavens:" (verse 34)

Also Jesus was not in the grave 36 hours, he was in their three days and three nights. Can't get 3 days and three nights between Friday afternoon and sunday morning? Well, that's because those days are false, changed later to fit in with Pagan holidays by the Catholic church. They changed the observance of passover into easter, which was a pagan fertility festival (bunnies, eggs, etc)

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Sabbath after the day Christ was buried was not a weekly sabbath (Saturday), it was annual High day Sabbath, being the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the day after Passover, the day Christ was really crucified....

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Christ was crucified on a Wednesday, buried just before sundown, and rose just before sundown on Saturday. When the women turned up early on Sunday morning, they were told that Christ was already risen, they were not told he rose that morning.

Can I just say that the concept of the dead rising from their graves in the end times scenario has a definite correlation in the world now.

I base this solely on my own spiritual journeys of awareness over the past 30 years, and the experiences of the last 8 years in particular. Due to my unorthodox approach and the wonderful experiences it has provided me in this world and other realms, I have been able to work with the dead in order to help them into the Light.

So, part of my work as a psychic counsel, medium, healer and teacher of simple methods for awakening involves clearing houses of the dead hanger's-on, and helping the living come to terms with an unusual reality around them, as well as playing the role of go-between on order to help others to some degree of closure. Yes, I am not a christian, but know your god through direct contact.

Here is what I think is happening.... the dead seem to be rising from their graves, and the numbers have increased dramatically within the last decade. This is due to the veils between the worlds/realms slowly fading as we get closer to the end of days scenario.

More people are having the experiences of the dead around them... they have always been there it's just that we have not been able to see or know this for a fact, until more recently.

So yes, the dead are plentiful now, more people are having direct experience with them, more people are coming along to help both sides, and all of it indicates that the end of how we humans have been living on this world is almost upon us.

Thank You for the opportunity to share.