The Dead Shall Rise First?

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

Why is it that the dead are allowed into heaven first? Should'nt the dead already BE in heaven???



[edit on 21-4-2007 by misterfantastic]

Well, some Christians, such as the Jehovah's witnesses and others, don't believe in a spiritual afterlife. They claim that when we die, we just lay and wait for this "physical resurrection." I don't personally believe that, but some do. Perhaps this is part of the reason they believe such things.

Originally posted by misterfantastic
...
... Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

clouds and or air is not a metaphor for heaven.

but if there's any orderliness in the Lords' program;
the aready dead and buried (or cremated or lost at sea...)
including Saints, Clergy, and everyday believers- in no perferred order or status...
will be raised into incorruptable bodies before the few/remnant that remained alive (at the 2nd coming)....

that scenario seems like a good, social equality, thing to do.

Originally posted by misterfantastic
Why is it that the dead are allowed into heaven first? Should'nt the dead already BE in heaven???

According to Scripture, the dead are 'asleep' not in heaven/hell/wherever . . . yet.

www.gnmagazine.org...

The dead are unconscious. The common belief is that at death the body goes to the grave and the soul remains conscious and goes either to heaven or hell. Yet, as we have seen, this belief is not biblical

[... snip ...]

Eventually all will arise—some to eternal life in the first resurrection and others to physical life in another resurrection 1,000 years later. As Jesus said, the hour is coming "in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth" (John 5:28-29). This is the comforting and encouraging truth revealed in the Scriptures.

Bible Study.org has a good read on this too (IMO):

www.biblestudy.org...

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

"As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance" (Daniel 12:13).

Regards.

I always remember being taught after you die you go to heaven.

who changed the rules?

"He will come again to judge the Living and the Dead"

It's standard Catholic dogma, but for some reason it's not clearly explained to the followers. The church seems comfortable for people believe in Instant Judgment.

Saints are given a free pass direct to Heaven, however. If they didn't, how could you play to them? And how could they perform miracles?

Originally posted by emjoi
"He will come again to judge the Living and the Dead"

It's standard Catholic dogma, but for some reason it's not clearly explained to the followers. The church seems comfortable for people believe in Instant Judgment.

Saints are given a free pass direct to Heaven, however. If they didn't, how could you play to them? And how could they perform miracles?

Hi emjoi/

The prayer of humble people living on earth or deceased are heard by God.....as written in the old Testament.

The nearness of the saints to God’s throne and the power of their prayers for the faithful existing on the earth, is obvious from the book of Revelations, in which the Apostle John writes: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.
" Later he describes the vision of the righteous in Heaven, praying for the people suffering on earth: "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand" (Rev. 5:11; 8:3-4).

Our Intercessors in Heaven

And for the relics of Sainly people working miracles......
'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' .....Psalm 119:6

Relics have been known to pour out Myrrh ..this is an indication that the person was holy and pleasing to God.
"a sweet-savour of Christ unto God" .....II Corinthians 2:15

At Judgement day all will be judged.....the Living and the dead.

IX
helen

This is a great mystery.

I was also taught when you die you go on to Heaven and never thought much more about it until Jehovah Witnesses came to my door. They came every week for the longest time and were very nice people and I didn't have the heart to turn them away.

I asked them this very question and they told me their belief was that you sleep. I asked them about the criminal that was on the cross when Jesus was crucified - Jesus told him 'today you'll be with me in paradise.'

This man was no Saint yet he was promised something very big.

I think this is symbolic of the phoenix rising from the ashes?

moving on... if we look at the Essene beliefs we are in a state of perpetual reincarnation. We are actually whilst in this state put into a coma (our memories are limited). One life though it unknown, many hosts. This is so karma can be fulfilled and lessons learnt. An eye for an eye means exactly that, not in terms of revenge but if you do something, then you will experience it yourself so you can learn from it. So, the victim becomes the perpetuator and vice versa.

I believe Earth is a place for the dead to learn how to live. This is the Christ Consciousness. I also believe that this passage represents those people who are reincarnated and dead (flesh) but spiritually living in a service to others capacity for the transition.

peace

There's a song called "The Midnight Cry" and it says: "When Jesus steps out, on a cloud to call his children, the dead in Christ shall rise to meet him in the air, and then those that remain, shall be quickly changed, at the Midnight Cry when Jesus comes again"

Originally posted by Rren
According to Scripture, the dead are 'asleep' not in heaven/hell/wherever . . . yet.

That's one interpretation.

Of course - Christ Himself promised the repentant thief who was crucified next to him that he would be in paradise THAT DAY with him.

And of course - in Revelation we find the saints already in heaven talking to God - and that's BEFORE the Second Coming.

So the notion that the dead are asleep .... there is direct contradiction of that in the bible.

The soul has already been judged and gone to where it is going to. The quote the OP is asking about has to do with the resurrection of the body.. when the body and soul are reunited.

Resurrection of the Body

The Dead Can Hear Us

Originally posted by helen670
And for the relics of Sainly people working miracles......
'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' .....Psalm 119:6

Relics

Right you are helen!! There are places in scripture were relics are discussed. When the handkerchief of Peter was touched to the sick, they were healed. The bones of Elisha is another. ETC ETC.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


Of course - Christ Himself promised the repentant thief who was crucified next to him that he would be in paradise THAT DAY with him.

we also know that Jesus didn't go to Paradise ='Heaven' that day...
as we are promised that Jesus aka:Christ would be dead and rise on the third day...
that means either Jesus fibbed to the repentant thief
or that 'paradise' does not mean 'Heaven'

are you aware that when a person is at death's door, the stress of the body actually causes the brain to activate natural, internal drug compounds that the body creates chemically?? endorphins etc.
did Jesus actually tell the crucified man beside him that...
no, Jesus told him in so many words, he'd get a tremendous Rush
when he dies...an ecstacy period like a moment in paradise...

That seems to me the real meaning of that Jesus statement & promise, and that explaination satisifies all the nuiances of scripture

Just my two cents, but as far as understand it everyone is supposed to await in Sheol till Judgement Day according to the Bible, at least the Old Testament which is my Bible.

Like when Saul had the spirit of the prophet Samuel called up by the witch of Endor. He was in Sheol. The best way to describe it would be suspended animation I think.

My personal opinion is that Sheol is the same as the Collective Unconscious/ Spiritworld. Entities that exist there being Unconscious till invoked or evoked.

[edit on 22/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

Somewhere in the bible God says that he will make a new heaven and a new earth. Perhaps the dead are already in heaven and on judgment day will move from the old heaven to the new.

justin

Originally posted by misterfantastic
I always remember being taught after you die you go to heaven.

who changed the rules?

What your taught and what is actually written is often contradictory. Heck even whats written is contradictory. Judas' fate probably being the best example of massive inconsistencies and discrepencies.

why is the bible so contradictory anyway?

you would think is someone was writing a book about a great leader, that they would use CORRECT SPELLING and be straight forward but for some reason thats not the case.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rren
According to Scripture, the dead are 'asleep' not in heaven/hell/wherever . . . yet.

That's one interpretation.

Of course - Christ Himself promised the repentant thief who was crucified next to him that he would be in paradise THAT DAY with him.

[... snip... ]


The soul has already been judged and gone to where it is going to.

Good Point.

Luke 23 (NIV)

42 Then he["repentant thief"] said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom


43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


Consider, however:

(Ecclesiastes 12):
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


(IMO) The spirit is that which is created in His image. Regardless of my fate it will return to Him. It is not ours, or what meakes me me; my soul (all that makes me me, warts and all) but instead His spirit that returns upon death.



Now go back to Luke (23):

46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.



Was He immediately transported to Heaven? If not, where was He in the interim? Was He aware?



Again, From Luke (14):

12 Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid.

13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."



When will he/we be repaid?


From Revelation (11):


11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.



Where were they before He told them to "Come up here"? Could I have prayed to them (and had them hear me) in the interim?



They were (IMO) dead or asleep until He breathed the breath of life into them, again. They weren't transported to heaven upon death automatically (as a rule.)



From Matthew (22):


29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,

32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."


You are dead until He chooses to resurrect you ie, He gives you the breath of life. What is Judgement day about if the dead have already been judged, and are already in - or not in - Heaven?


From Wikipedia:

Sheol

Great White Throne

Last Judgment

The quote the OP is asking about has to do with the resurrection of the body.. when the body and soul are reunited.

Agreed. So where are we and what are we until that happens?

Resurrection of the Body

From your link (emphasis mine):

"[I]f the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:13–18).

[... snip...]

[...] at the second coming Jesus "will judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad [Rom. 2:6–11]... "

I believe that that link supports what I've already stated. The dead (even the "dead in Christ") are asleep until Judgment. What made my grandfather George George is not up in Heaven right now. I can't pray to him and have him hear me and/or do anything about it, no?

The Dead Can Hear Us

Is there a difference between "the Saints" and 'regular 'ol Christians/everybody else' here? That link seems to contradict the other one. They're both from the same (Catholic) source so I may be missing something here. Help?


Regards.

Originally posted by misterfantastic

who changed the rules?

Sorry my friend you must get used to it. The only truth is the kind you find yourself.

AAC

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Soul and spirit are not interchangeable. They are not one and the same thing. Here is a link to my thread discussing this in detail.

Soul Vs. Spirit

Our soul doesn't go anywhere. It dies with the body because it is nothing more than the emotional body trapped in physicality. The spirit, breath of God, is forever. As far as what Jehovah's Witnesses claim, I personally think they are little more than an organized cult, so, I don't put much stock into what they say about the spirit of man dying.