Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

Originally posted by AD5673

No! Life has not always been there, the Earth has not always been there, Jupiter has not always been there, NOTHING has ALWAYS been there! It was created.

That is only true from the perspective of TIME, which is an illusion. So yes, from the perspective of this illusion, it is created. However, if one stops lying to oneself, then linear creation ceases to exist, and everything simply IS. One needs to only open his mind and think about this without prejudice to realise it. EVERYTHING has always existed, and always will exist, in one eternal now.

Ironically, even if you still prefer to play the "time" game, then everything STILL has always existed, if you think about it carefully. However, one then inevitably runs into a contradiction, and is forced to discount the possibility of the existance of time entirely. I can explain if you ask, but I'd much rather that you think about this yourself. Arguing for the sake of argument won't get us very far

Now you might ask where did God come from, or who, or what created him? The answer to this is that God doesnt want you to know.

A lazy mind's answer! Whether he would want me to know this or not, your version of God creates a contradiction, and contradictions do not exist. An all-powerful being cannot create a stone he cannot lift, this would be impossible as it would be a contradiction to the word all-powerful!

In this same way, TIME is a contradiction to reality. I won't even comment on the fact that YOU decided that you know what God wants me to know, and what God doesn't want me to know. Not only do you choose to ASSUME there is a separate CREATOR GOD, but you pretend to know what it is that he wants. Well, assume away!

Originally posted by Enlightened
Please!!!! Blah, Blah, Blah....... Wrong, everything has not always been. God has always been. Everything else had a beginning.

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by Enlightened]

[Edited on 23-4-2004 by Enlightened]

I already covered this in my time thread. I'd advise you review what has already been disputed through logical deduction, before posting. But you do as you choose.

LIlbam,


Look, it is senseless to argue because you are really the one with your mind closed not me. It truly takes more intelligence to believe in a Creator than not so whatever. I don't want to get into a Scientific or Creation based debate with you. I have better things to do than to make you feel stupid with my tested 180+ IQ tested. So, again, I will pray that The Creator gives you enough common sense to see what you can not. Because, that is what most of you so called Atheist types have is a serious lack of common sense. It really is so simple to see, isn't it??? Gosh, wake up and open your eyes......

Your friend,
Jason

Originally posted by Enlightened
lilblam,


Look, you are probably a good ole boy with too much time on your hands so I will give you a break here.

Good is subjective, and your judgement upon my being has nothing to do with:
1) Objective reality
2) This thread.

It really is simple. No, you can't prove the exsistance of God using your(our) primitive educational concepts.

I do not use our primitive educational concepts. I use my mind, which is limitless. Also, I do not prove anything, as proof doesn't exist - ask and you shall receive. Receive without asking, and you shall be deceived. You only know what you seek to know, and if you put up a wall of denial for any reason, then this knowledge will escape you, even if presented with overwhelming amount of evidence, be it logical or otherwise.

The truth: God created Science and everything else for that matter.

And what's God?

The problem is that our intelligence has not caught up with the Science He has created.

What's the difference between you, me, or God?

We only understand a tiny fraction of true knowledge.

True, but do you not wish to understand MORE? And to understand more, do you not need to use your MIND? If you refuse to open your most powerful tool, how do you expect to gain new knowledge?

Therefore, the huge gap that remains causes people like yourself to doubt when really what you are experiencing is a lack of wisdom which comes from knowledge which is derived from information. So, where am I going? Faith is the key.

I hope you're not referring to belief! Fantasies and wishful thinking never got people very far in objective reality, did they?

It is something that can not be explained.

Everything can be explained, unless of course you do not seek to explain it, which means you close your mind off to knowledge, and choose ignorance instead.

A person either has it or they don't. If you don't you surely can't understand it and those who have it can not understand it either.

Thanks for clarifying. Nobody understands it, but you still claim it is the key. So how can you know if it is the "key" if you do not understand this key in the first place, and no one else does either?

Let me enlighten you: It is wishful thinking, and no matter how much you WISH something was true, it won't be any more true objectively, except in your mind. Therefore, if you have an ENORMOUS amount of faith that I am holding 3 fingers behind my back, it will NOT make it any more correct. So how does BELIEVING how many fingers I am holding behind my back alter objective reality? So now apply this to everything else, how does believing anything make it any more true? How does your FAITH alter objective reality?
How does assumption make something true? How does anticipation create what is true? How does having faith that you picked the right lottery number make it so? Are we getting anywhere with this yet?

Sounds crazy I know.

What it sounds like is delusional wishful-thinking. If it is not, then please tell me what faith means to you. Oh wait you cannot, because you said no one can understand it. You are using a concept you claim that NO ONE understands and say it is the "key" to reality. You EXPLAIN things using logic that has no basis in reality whatsoever, and actually ADMIT that you don't understand it yourself.

Bottom line brother is I feel ya, we all have questions that can't be answered, God knows I do.

All questions can be answered, brother, if one seeks the answer with an open mind and determination. If one stops his search for answers, and instead says "I'll just have faith, that thing I don't understand, and hopefully my faith will make it TRUE" then of course the answers will forever escape him!

But, I relax and take life one day at a time and just enjoy it. God is really like a Cosmic watchmaker or crafter of a fine auto such as Ferrari. I mean that with complete respect to God also. You see common sense tells us that something that is created must have a creator.

Common sense? Most "common" understandings are based on lies and illusions. I wouldn't advise that you rely on anything "common" or "popular" to back your understanding. You forget that the created and the creator can be one and the same, if you just try to avoid linear thought for a moment.

So, just as a hand crafted Ferrari has a precision hand working on it so does a human being have a precision hand working to create Him/Her. To me faith is really common sense and as we can see today there seems to be a drastic shortage of it in our world today.

First you say nobody understand what faith is, then you say it's common sense. Well no wonder there's a shortage of common sense in the world as you say, cuz nobody understands it apparently!

Too many booked learned PHD types that have no common sense or real world relatability. It is very sad. Get the dang kids out of the house and make them play outside. Stupid video games.... Anyway, lilbam I greatly respect your opinion as a person even though I don't agree. Lastly look at this. You can only prove there is no GOD if you understand everything about everything.

You cannot prove anything. But you can KNOW it. Everyone else can know it, if only they choose to know it and seek the answer until they know it. We keep hitting a brick wall here though: What IS God? God exists, but not the religious version of God. If GOD is all there is, then God obviously exists, since something exists!

Then and only then can you justly formulate an opinion on the subject. You can't reverse that on me though because Faith bridges that gap my brother. Listen, I will pray that God gives you the faith you need to see what your mind can not see. Your friend.

Jason

So you are praying and asking some entity to interfere with my thought, to abrige my FREE WILL and make me think what YOU want me to think, by instilling YOUR version of what common sense is in my mind. Great, you pray that your God violates my free will, and eliminates my choice to not have my mind tempered with by ANY outside force.

Perhaps you're not praying to God after all...

Now, as comfortable as it may be to explain things away by calling them "common sense", it is very often very confusing as to what you MEAN by that term "common sense". It is like saying, "Well EVERYONE KNOWS that... ". Well no, they don't. This "sense" is not universal! But once again, I do not wish to argue senselessly (no pun intended). Let's use logic here please, and take one thing at a time!

Let's start at the VERY beginning by asking, What IS GOD?. You cannot say "no one knows" because you cannot argue for or against something that no one knows. If I say God is my socks, then he exists. So once again, what do YOU define as God? I'm not asking for you to give me a list of his POWERS etc, I'm only asking you to tell me what you see God to be, in order to be able to argue for or against the existance of this.

After you do that my friend, this conversation will take on a whole different meaning! Now, we also seem to disagree on our understanding of what "faith" is. You say it means common sense, but you also say no one knows what it is. What I offer notice is that "faith" is used synonymously with the word "belief", and as you probably know, believing something does NOT make it so! Does your "common sense" tell you this much? Well, I hope we can continue this conversation in a respectful manner, and arrive at some mutual understanding here

-Mike

Originally posted by Enlightened
LIlbam,

It truly take more intelligence to believe in a Creator than not so..I have better things to do than to make you feel stupid with my tested 180+ IQ tested. So, again, I will pray that The Creator gives you enough common sense to see what you can not. Because, that is what most of you so called Atheist types have is a serious lack of common sense. It really is so simple to see, isn't it??? Gosh, wake up and open your eyes......

Are you seriously saying that Faith requires intelligence and that only stupid people rely on empirical evidence? If you are, then I have to ask what heck have you been smoking?



[Edited on 24-4-2004 by Bleys]

Originally posted by Enlightened
LIlbam,


Look, it is senseless to argue because you are really the one with your mind closed not me. It truly takes more intelligence to believe in a Creator than not so whatever. I don't want to get into a Scientific or Creation based debate with you. I have better things to do than to make you feel stupid with my tested 180+ IQ tested.

Don't worry, you won't. IQ doesn't measure open mindedness, or psychopathic tendencies. For example: Bush's IQ may be low, but it doesn't prevent him from deceiving the entire nation, and doing a grand job!

However, boosting your own ego by giving out your IQ every time one is "threatened" with a logical argument, and then exclaiming that he will NOT argue, doesn't make one CORRECT in one's assessment of reality. However, such is your choice!

So, again, I will pray that The Creator gives you enough common sense to see what you can not. Because, that is what most of you so called Atheist types have is a serious lack of common sense.

I'm not an atheist type, that's an assumption.

It really is so simple to see, isn't it??? Gosh, wake up and open your eyes......

Your friend,
Jason

Easy to say when you choose to escape a logical debate, isn't it?

EDIT: Yes, it is true, to argue with someone who does not wish to seek truth in the first place is as pointless as talking to a wall, but SEEING is the choice of the individual. If something is presented to you and you close your eyes and deny it's very existance, then you simply do not WISH to know the truth, and have made that choice.

Pretending to see what is not there, but having FAITH that it is also doesn't alter objective reality, and also is an indication of a mind that does not wish to see reality as it truly IS, but only wishes to see what it WANTS or is PROGRAMMED to see.


[Edited on 24-4-2004 by lilblam]

I'm only asking you to tell me what you see God to be

The creator of EVERYTHING

Again i ask; Liblam, if you dont belive in God where did everything come from? It cant just be there because nothing is just there.

Originally posted by AD5673
Again i ask; Liblam, if you dont belive in God where did everything come from? It cant just be there because nothing is just there.

Yes, everything was created, but the created IS the creator and vice versa. This cannot make sense only if you think of creation in terms of linear time, but try not to

All possible things that could ever exist, DO exist, and will forever exist. Only by focusing your energies on one specific REALITY do you create not only your perception, but also a possible illusion of time and space, if you so choose!

Once again, as I've mentioned before, think if a video tape. Only by viewing the frames one at a time in a fast sequential order, do you create the illusion of time on the tape. By laying out the tape in front of yourself and looking at all the frames at once, you do not need to experience this continual "time", which only exists if you view the frames on the tape one at a time in a sequence.

Also, you may say that we do not have the awareness to see all 125 thousand frames at the same time! Well there is your answer! Your awareness is limited, and therefore you experience what appears to be TIME, as you cannot yet expand your perception to see more of reality simultaneously, and therefore be outside of TIME! You are forced to view one frame at a time, otherwise you won't know what the hell is going on and what the movie is about! Once you expand your awareness, you can see the entire tape in one glance, and see the whole movie in NO TIME!

How do you expand your awareness? KNOWLEDGE! By acquiring knowledge, your awareness grows, and with your expanded awareness, you are able to perceive reality closer to what it TRULY IS, and not just as you are forced to experience it through limited awareness.

Example: You see more of reailty than a SNAIL does, because you have far more awareness. The snail cannot see beyond its own leaf, and it may think that the entire existance is this one tree. You can see far more, of course. Do not STOP HERE however, keep going, and see how much farther you can go! There is no limit to how much you can learn, and how far you can expand your awareness and understanding - only a self-imposed limit by denying that you can KNOW something.

Try to think with an open mind and without prejudice! Don't get stuck in linear thought, try to think beyond this. Once you expand your awareness enough, you will achieve the NEXT level of existance, which makes HUMANS seem like SNAILS in comparison. Once again, the choice is YOURS, and only by seeking KNOWLEDGE and understanding of OBJECTIVE REALITY, do you achieve this and more. There is no LIMIT to knowledge!

If you choose to stagnate in belief, if you choose to give up your will to some entity you call God, if you choose to deny your own infinite potential, you literally give up your search for truth, and put it off till you've learned enough lessons and choose to once again RESUME it. If you would like me to tell you this in a religious connotation, then think of this:

Don't you think GOD would want you to KNOW him? Do you not think he wishes to reveal himself to you if you only SEEK to understand? Or do you think he prefers you NOT try to know Him, but choose ignorance instead and just BELIEVE? Why do you think you have a MIND, do you not think God would want you to USE IT?

Once again, don't assume that I'm speaking of God in terms of some entity "up in heaven". From the perspective of reality of ALL THAT IS, the more you know, the more you understand God, which is all that is, and the more you are able to achieve/accomplish, and the CLOSER you are to GOD (all that is).

Knowledge is ALL THAT IS, and by seeking objective KNOWLEDGE, you in actually seek to know GOD. Try not to stagnate in religious dogma, which only imposes locks and limits on your mind, to prevent you from knowing the truth, and therefore controlling you. Dogma seeks to tell YOU what to believe and to think, and to prevent you from objectively seeking the TRUTH, by instilling fear of "angering your God". Fear is a very powerful tool to control. Truth DOES set you free.

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by lilblam]

Again, Blah, Blah, Blah. I am not threatened by any one of you guys.. Please.... Seems the more I see you all talk the more I see that "Common sense is not so common....." My point just plays itself out, Funny.....

Originally posted by Enlightened
Again, Blah, Blah, Blah. I am not threatened by any one of you guys.. Please.... Seems the more I see you all talk the more I see that "Common sense is not so common....." My point just plays itself out, Funny.....

Common sense is like morals: subjective and defined by each individual in their own way. Your point is not based in objectivity.

I am not trying to make a point can you see that? As much as you would like to think that it is, Truth is Absolute not subjective. I hate you situational ethics types.....

What brings people to become stuck in their mind, is the need to understand everything.
Some call it a lazy mind, to realize you simply can not understand everything, such as what started God and how God created us.
Reality is that it is not lazy at all, to choose not to spend time trying to figure something out that you can not figure out. We are not on the same level as God, and untill we are we will have to admit that some of Gods systems, rules and laws are just beyond our grasp.

Atheists should really not fire those questions at christians anyways.

Being a christian is something else then being God. As logical as that may sound, a lot of people base their image of God on what they like/not like about christian people, and expect answers from christian people one should only expect from God.

The fact that I can not answer your question, does not mean God can not answer your question.

"Can God make a brick he can not lift?" what a hilariously childish way of questioning the might of the One who created you and everything around you.
I wonder what God would answer if you would ask Him this, allthough my narrow mind tells me He would probably have much better things to do than having such conversations with you.

lol lol.
There either always was something, or there was always nothing (if nothing cant create something). And since we are here to ask this question I resort to the former.

We have god and religion because it is easier to make certain judgements in our lives.

Does it make us any more weaker because we believe in someone higher than us? I'm sure that when many of you's were little children you had a role model, maybe a big brother or somthing that you asked questions and learned from and wondered at. God is our big bro.

God will ALWAYS exist, this is because some choose to believe in him. If he DIDNT, no one could believe in him, but if he DID exist, some could choose to belive in him and others wouldn't and he wouldn't exist to those people.

You can't deduce the truth using logic about something like this. There is no right or wrong answer, our own truth is answered by our souls.

Well lilblam,
I brought this post forward since it seems to have been ignored. But it's a legitimate question.

Originally posted by CommonSense
Why is it that most atheists are so incredibly preoccupied with the need to prove that something doesn't exist that they don't beleive in in the first place? It would seem to indicate to me that they, deep down inside, do in fact believe. Since I'm not an atheist I can't claim to know what their beliefs are but it may be logicaal to assume that they may be fiercly angry with God for some reason or their own ego and "knowledge" gets in the way of believing.

The fact is -GOD DOES EXIST! He created the universe as we know it. Matter cannot create matter, thus the universe was created by something outside the universe, God. Everything that occurs in the universe is caused by some event. Creation however goes back to the uncaused cause.

If you choose to stagnate in belief, if you choose to give up your will to some entity you call God, if you choose to deny your own infinite potential, you literally give up your search for truth, and put it off till you've learned enough lessons and choose to once again RESUME it. If you would like me to tell you this in a religious connotation, then think of this:

First of all i didnt stagnae in belief. I would like to know as many things as possible in my life. But i still blelive in God.

Don't you think GOD would want you to KNOW him? Do you not think he wishes to reveal himself to you if you only SEEK to understand? Or do you think he prefers you NOT try to know Him, but choose ignorance instead and just BELIEVE? Why do you think you have a MIND, do you not think God would want you to USE IT?

You only get to know God in hevaen; if you get there. You can ask him anything. I'm sure he would anwser.

Once again, don't assume that I'm speaking of God in terms of some entity "up in heaven". From the perspective of reality of ALL THAT IS, the more you know, the more you understand God, which is all that is, and the more you are able to achieve/accomplish, and the CLOSER you are to GOD (all that is).

So you are saying the term God means ALL that there is? No. God is the CREATOR of ALL that there is. And yes he is up in heaven with his son and angels. Watching over us.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by AD5673]

If there was no God how would people belive in him? I mena if God did not exist how would people still think there's a God? People arent smart enought to create such stories as in the Bible. We would've never came up with this. And the only rewason we do belive in God because he is real. Because the Bible tells us. The Bible was wirtten like 5000 years ago. And the New Testiment about 2000 years ago. How would the stupid ancient people have came up with a God, and all those incredible stories? And the predictons in the Revalations, in the Bible are coming true right now! And there lots more evidence to what is written in the Bible is true. And if what is written in the Bible is true. Then God must exist! And he does!

Originally posted by Enlightened
I am not trying to make a point can you see that? As much as you would like to think that it is, Truth is Absolute not subjective. I hate you situational ethics types.....

Didn't say anything about truth

Don't confuse your "common sense" with truth.

Originally posted by Jakko
What brings people to become stuck in their mind, is the need to understand everything.
Some call it a lazy mind, to realize you simply can not understand everything, such as what started God and how God created us.

You cannot understand that which you already assume. Beliefs only lead to self-delusion!

Once again, if you START with the assumption that some God created us, then of course you'll be stuck at figuring out "how". Also, I did not say understand everything, but what you just said is not everything by any means, and can be easily know and understood, if one seeks the truth. If one seeks to believe and assume instead, then of course that's his choice.

Reality is that it is not lazy at all, to choose not to spend time trying to figure something out that you can not figure out.

You won't know if you can figure it out until you try. I tried and figured it out. You don't try and claim it's impossible. So who's lazy? You cannot figure anything out if you assume beforehand. Wishful thinking will get ya every time.

We are not on the same level as God, and untill we are we will have to admit that some of Gods systems, rules and laws are just beyond our grasp.

You start with the assumption that there IS a God, which will as usual lead you into deception. Assumptions do not equal truth. When you start with an assumption, this only means you do not wish to know the truth, you prefer your own assumption/beliefs over reality. Then you put up a defense by saying "It is beyond our simple minds to understand" and use this every time someone says, "Why not seek truth?". Once again, this is an excuse, and is faulty because it's based on assumption.

Atheists should really not fire those questions at christians anyways.

And you're the one who knows what people should and should not do? Who should be asked what in which situation?

Being a christian is something else then being God. As logical as that may sound, a lot of people base their image of God on what they like/not like about christian people, and expect answers from christian people one should only expect from God.

You cannot expect anything from an imaginary entity, unless of course you happen to be a Christian

The fact that I can not answer your question, does not mean God can not answer your question.

All questions have answers. There are those that seek answers to all questions, and those that sit there saying "nah, I'd rather dwell in my illusion and pretend that certain questions just cannot be answered". Only the former reach new levels of awareness and understanding, only the former begin to see reality as it truly is, and only the former finally understands the answers to any and all questions they seek answers for. The latter will forever sit there in denial saying "This can NEVER be answered" or "Only GOD can answer this" and not even TRY!

"Can God make a brick he can not lift?" what a hilariously childish way of questioning the might of the One who created you and everything around you.

What a hilariously silly assumption based on religious propaganda, mind-control techniques, and dogma that's designed to confuse and control your very mind. What a programmed response based on a non-thinking, fearful, weak state of mind induced in you by religion and by society, what an entropic existance you chose! How does the saying go... if you assume, you make an...

I wonder what God would answer if you would ask Him this, allthough my narrow mind tells me He would probably have much better things to do than having such conversations with you.

Yes, non-existing is his favorite thing to do.

Originally posted by CommonSense
Why is it that most atheists are so incredibly preoccupied with the need to prove that something doesn't exist that they don't beleive in in the first place?

Belief has nothing to do with objective reality. Therefore, it is irrelavant to only prove things you believe in, or otherwise. Belief is useless except as a way to create an illusion for yourself that you really like and stick to it.

It would seem to indicate to me that they, deep down inside, do in fact believe.

Cannot generalize, but yes, some people choose KNOWLEDGE over belief. They do not co-exist. Either you choose to believe things, or you seek the truth and KNOW those things.

Since I'm not an atheist I can't claim to know what their beliefs are but it may be logicaal to assume that they may be fiercly angry with God for some reason or their own ego and "knowledge" gets in the way of believing.

Isn't that funny how that is? Once you have the KNOWLEDGE of the fact that your religious God is a figment of your religiously-inspired imagination, it stands in the way of our BELIEF! When a physicist has the knowledge of gravity, it stands in the way of his belief that gravity doesn't exist, because he KNOWS it does. It's always interesting how knowledge of something stands in the way of your belief in the CONTRARY! Funny how the mind works sometimes!

The fact is -GOD DOES EXIST!

No it's not a fact, it's your assumption, it's your statement based on nothing but wishful thinking and programming instilled in you since childhood. Just because you say something, doesn't make it fact! You must now tell me WHY this is a fact, to back up your statement. Otherwise, it will remain an assumption.

He created the universe as we know it. Matter cannot create matter, thus the universe was created by something outside the universe, God.

Well first, no one can create or destroy energy, only utilize it and alter it to suit their needs - whether he be physical or not. Also, who said the universe is mostly matter? As far as I know, it's mostly empty space

What you just presented is not logical, because you base your assumption on something completely unrelated: Since matter cannot create matter, God must exist. Well, I can create a brand new plant by planting a seed. Is this not matter making matter? There ya go.

Everything that occurs in the universe is caused by some event. Creation however goes back to the uncaused cause.

There is no time, nothing goes "back"! And even if there was time, there still is no beginning! If there is no beginning, there is no creator. However, this latter concept creates a contradiction where we appear to have breached infinity, and therefore, time does not exist. If time/creation/beginning doesn't exist, where does this put God, who is now out of work?