The Third Stage

Ben Franklin also didnt have nukes and a global economy to worry about...
It seems you are all for killing masses of people Stever

Hey, an internal regime change nowadays can be painless. Think about it.

All it takes is a General with guts. Or impeachment proceedings in the house. Or (the naive option) a reversal of policy by the next administration.

The population needs to make itself heard. I am in support of all 9/11 truth marchers.

I suppose you are in support of putting all such innocent patriotic people on terrorist watch lists and no-fly lists, as is already going on?

Originally posted by SteveR
Maybe I missed something, but the video never recommended taking any sort of violent action.

Saying our government lied to us and showing the masses yelling and marching in the street doesnt show by example how to respond...

Enough said.

Originally posted by Watchful1
Saying our government lied to us

You deny this, even?

Well, it actually revolves around morality. It seems that you actually want me to draw out a plan for you? I can't, that is impossible for me because I do not have the same information the government has access to. Just by common sense and consideration for all who live in this corner of the universe, I would think that the best way in ensuring national security, would be to build relations with other nations and concentrate on actually advancing our civilization together as a whole, not sacrifice some for the sake of others...but, I know, it is just a dream and only a dream. If I were a shadowy group behind the governments, and I wanted global domination, I would most deffinetely create tension and social unrest to further my plans. This is what I say, If it looks like #, smells like #, tastes like #, then what else could it be? "Rebuilding America's Defenses" is a good idea, but you have to consider just who is behind it, and what events have been occuring around these people and their history. Here is one thing, instead of spending all that money and all that effort in preventing attacks, I would have used this to ensure as many kids as possible get an education and go to college and become someone that will add in furthering our entire civilization. This would be the best weapon for the future because we would have even more minds helping in the development of alternate resources and inventions that would take us away from our dependence of the things that cause this need for "rebuilding" our defenses.

Originally posted by SteveR

Ben Franklin also didnt have nukes and a global economy to worry about...
It seems you are all for killing masses of people Stever

Hey, an internal regime change nowadays can be painless. Think about it.

All it takes is a General with guts. Or impeachment proceedings in the house. Or (the naive option) a reversal of policy by the next administration.

The population needs to make itself heard. I am in support of all 9/11 truth marchers.

I suppose you are in support of putting all such innocent patriotic people on terrorist watch lists and no-fly lists, as is already going on?

Somehow we need to rid the world of violence. If gulags stop internal collapse... We must preserve this great country our forefathers built. If I am not right then please do enlighten me but if you are wrong I will fight for the sake of mankind.


Causing civil dispute will only complicate an already complex and delicate international system. Terrorist will take full advantage of kicking us while we are down.

Hey, an internal regime change nowadays can be painless. Think about it.

All it takes is a General with guts. Or impeachment proceedings in the house. Or (the naive option) a reversal of policy by the next administration.

This still does not ensure the American homeland against enemy technological suprise. More money on intelligence gathering and DARPA is the best use of funds. Changing or reversing that could see America to a barron wasteland if adversary actions will it in the strategic wake of our being unprepared.

I had to finally register instead of lurking like I have for the past 4 years. I cannot help but observe watchful's post, he is articulate and rather convincing when he links the increased defense spending on our ability to sleep at night.

but this logic is flawed. My understanding of what you are saying is that americans should stfu because the defense departments aggressive tactics on other nations is the only reason we are safe? If we had all of those soldiers protecting our borders, patrolling our shores, and defending our airspace we would be much 'safer' compared to what we are doing now. What bush has done has been disastrous for our national security. To be able to sit there and proclaim that the last 6 years is evidence of how well we are being protected is bull#. Excuse me, but who's watch was it on when the biggest tragedy in American history occurred? if you can take credit for the last 6 years then credit must be assumed for the year prior, no? The middle east is now in a nuclear arms race, why? because everyone is scared #less of the instability we have caused. For every 1 terrorist the USA kills, 10 will emerge. Violence begets violence, and this can never ever lead to peace, only disaster.

I'd also like to make a comment about the posters who make comments like
"omg another bush is evil thread". They sound like Kanye West on TV when he said "Uhhh George Bush hates black people" or something like that. Why not realize that there is a difference between criticizing our government, and criticizing America and her citizens. It's like being called an anti-semit for criticizing Israel, how did this happen? I guess the same logic applies to those who say the troops feelings get hurt when we question our occupation of iraq. Obviously the most harm is being caused by those who want accountability in government, ruthless liberal bastards. It must also be the liberals who formed the biggest government in our history, or is that those conservatives? but aren't conservative values linked to small government? It makes sense if you start looking at everything backwards.

And to those who say "why should I believe some random video some (insert wacky, conspiracy theorist, lunatic adjective here.) made?". Well, how about looking it up? Alot of the "conspiracy theorists" got that way by trying to prove all this 9/11 bull# was true. If you think the video is wrong, please explain to us how and why, not hurl insults.

Since when did following evidence and application of logical reasoning make someone nuts? All the evidence points in one direction, if you follow it it takes you to the real terrorists, and knowing who the real terrorists is just to unbelievable for some people.

To the posters who disagree with the video please inform us on which part was incorrect so we can have a dialogue about and see who is right.

It's an amazing thing in America, a president can be killed by a "magic bullet" that seemed to defy the laws of physics, 2 towers can be taken down defying the laws of science and reason, and a whole other building can just come down on itself like magic and everyone attacks those who investigate those with the most motives just because its against what their government says? Now adays if you have a valid argument you will be called a conspiracy theorist and get yelled at by bill oreilly. Their is no justification for what has happened, not even the fact that I can drive on the highway with no toll bandits.

Remember, America didn't make Americans, Americans made America. We don't need them, they need us.

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by Watchful1
Saying our government lied to us

You deny this, even?

I hope you get a kick out of this all...



No they did lie to us. This lie allowed increased defense funding which thus keeps America ahead of enemy threat.



Im not saying 9/11 did not happen or was not horrible but you miss that 3,000 lives lost compared to millions of dead on our homelands....

Originally posted by Watchful1

Im not saying 9/11 did not happen or was not horrible but you miss that 3,000 lives lost compared to millions of dead on our homelands....

So you would have agreed to your death? If the governement would have asked you to die in order to prevent a future threat, would you have said yes?

You have voted 7Ayreon for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I am almost speachless...

How can you let these creeps get away with something like this? I am not even American and I am fuming...

Americans need to take back their country, no more lies.

Please stop with the "this war is for the protection of our homeland" rhetoric.

If our borders weren't spread more open then a whores legs then maybe I would say: "hey, maybe this is really in the interest of keeping me safe! awesome!" but instead anyone can walk right in and do whatever they wanted.

Please explain to me how it is safer to occupy a nation deemed a threat (This is hypothetical because iraq was not an immediate threat) and not protect your actual homeland?

Somehow how our borders are protected by some invisible shield that allows WIDE OPEN ENTRY INTO THE COUNTRY YOU CLAIM THESE TERRORISTS ARE TRYING TO DESTROY.

If the terrorist threat was extreme don't you think tighting our homeland security would come before invading another country in the name of defense?

I know I would feel safer knowing our soldiers were home, protecting us here, not building military bases alongside oil pipelines in the name of protecting the homeland.

Originally posted by bullieblack

My understanding of what you are saying is that americans should stfu because the defense departments aggressive tactics on other nations is the only reason we are safe? If we had all of those soldiers protecting our borders, patrolling our shores, and defending our airspace we would be much 'safer' compared to what we are doing now. What bush has done has been disastrous for our national security. To be able to sit there and proclaim that the last 6 years is evidence of how well we are being protected is bull#. Excuse me, but who's watch was it on when the biggest tragedy in American history occurred? if you can take credit for the last 6 years then credit must be assumed for the year prior, no? The middle east is now in a nuclear arms race, why? because everyone is scared #less of the instability we have caused. For every 1 terrorist the USA kills, 10 will emerge. Violence begets violence, and this can never ever lead to peace, only disaster.

Their is no justification for what has happened, not even the fact that I can drive on the highway with no toll bandits.

Remember, America didn't make Americans, Americans made America. We don't need them, they need us.

Americans should not stfu but instead look at 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' and work to break down and understand what these men see.


Somehow I feel more at ease knowing it was 9/11 instead of multiple nukes in major citys that happened. Dwindleing defense budgets at the end of the twentieth century could have easily led to the latter if networked communications systems were never being developed. Crazy EPT (Earth Penetrating Topography) sensors and various surveillance components can now find and track rogue nukes and monitor enemy strongholds as to not be suprised.


American soil as produce American ideologies. Defending our homeland is the key to a stable America, which is an inadvertent global peacekeeper. All these great ATS members who can help the world are as good as dead and useless if we can not defend this abode of ours...

Originally posted by souls
"Rebuilding America's Defenses" is a good idea, but you have to consider just who is behind it, and what events have been occuring around these people and their history. Here is one thing, instead of spending all that money and all that effort in preventing attacks, I would have used this to ensure as many kids as possible get an education and go to college and become someone that will add in furthering our entire civilization. This would be the best weapon for the future because we would have even more minds helping in the development of alternate resources and inventions that would take us away from our dependence of the things that cause this need for "rebuilding" our defenses.

If attacks destroy the place we live then I do not see children lining up for the bus this morning...

Originally posted by souls

Originally posted by Watchful1

Im not saying 9/11 did not happen or was not horrible but you miss that 3,000 lives lost compared to millions of dead on our homelands....

So you would have agreed to your death? If the governement would have asked you to die in order to prevent a future threat, would you have said yes?

Lets put it this way, if I offered to die and it ensured you and your family a safe life for up to 20 years from now is your whole family willing to die if I refuse?


1 man to save a million isnt to shabby

Watchful, why don't you address the lack of homeland protection? Is your omission of any comments supposed to make them less valid?

your argument is invalid because: your making statements inferring that 9/11 was indeed done by terrorists so the need for an increase is justified. You are also connecting iraq with 911, both of which had no connection. By your reasoning we should be in saudi arabia where most of the supposed terrorists came from.

Originally posted by bullieblack
Please stop with the "this war is for the protection of our homeland" rhetoric.

1.) If our borders weren't spread more open then a whores legs then maybe I would say: "hey, maybe this is really in the interest of keeping me safe! awesome!" but instead anyone can walk right in and do whatever they wanted.

2.) Please explain to me how it is safer to occupy a nation deemed a threat (This is hypothetical because iraq was not an immediate threat) and not protect your actual homeland?

3.) Somehow how our borders are protected by some invisible shield that allows WIDE OPEN ENTRY INTO THE COUNTRY YOU CLAIM THESE TERRORISTS ARE TRYING TO DESTROY.

4.) If the terrorist threat was extreme don't you think tighting our homeland security would come before invading another country in the name of defense?

5.) I know I would feel safer knowing our soldiers were home, protecting us here, not building military bases alongside oil pipelines in the name of protecting the homeland.

I have assigned your questions numbers and will answer them accordingly.


1.) They ARE, even if it is not much, tighter than before 9/11. Maybe a lot more focus is being spend on following suspected terrorist and if they end up near a border we detain them...This is why I stressed [Foreign] Intelligence gathering. An increased budget allowed better harware and software to complete this task...

2.) IRAQ was a threat, PERIOD. Sadam invaded Kuwait for oil and could have attempted to seize all near by oil by use of chemical and biological attacks. First he'd drop nasty chemical bombs then move in on the target area. If America stayed at home Sadam would have amassed much more land and could have possibly cut supplies to America. Also if middle eastern countries were forced to respond to such a situation it would have lead to nukes being dropped in panic. This would only lead to more dropped and holy land being decimated. Actively disengaging this threat saves this all but too real scenario from happening.


3.) Like I stated eariler, exploiting the latest technology can track HVT's [high value targets] and engage them if they pose a national security threat.


4.) Going off of point 2...Allowing weapons caches to amass instead of eliminating them can only do the homeland injury. Sitting in America does not destroy the weapons factories running full speed ahead.

5.) If more people enlisted we would have a greater homland force wouldnt we?

Originally posted by bullieblack
1.) Watchful, why don't you address the lack of homeland protection? Is your omission of any comments supposed to make them less valid?

2.) your argument is invalid because: your making statements inferring that 9/11 was indeed done by terrorists so the need for an increase is justified. You are also connecting iraq with 911, both of which had no connection. By your reasoning we should be in saudi arabia where most of the supposed terrorists came from.

1.) Hmmm. DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, was formed since 9/11 and I'm almost sure they increased homeland protection, even if it is all in databases monitoring your every keystroke...

2.) Where did I say that 9/11 was done by terrorist. I think I actually specifically mention it was an inside job and if not was at least allowed to happen to usher in this NWO change. And 9/11 has pleanty to do with Iraq. It gave us a reason to go to the middle east then reshift our focus to disarming a highly dangerous threat, Sadam. I'd like to see if we could have declared war with no 9/11 even if we had solid proof that Sadams future intentions were deadly for America.

Watchful,

Education spending does not have to conflict defense spending. What if they are making all this shiny weapons, technology, plans for our defense. The people would not be able to use any of it if they are not educated. As for my family's life over yours, I dont know, I would have to ask them. You still didn't answer my question though...

Originally posted by souls
Watchful,

Education spending does not have to conflict defense spending. What if they are making all this shiny weapons, technology, plans for our defense. The people would not be able to use any of it if they are not educated. As for my family's life over yours, I dont know, I would have to ask them. You still didn't answer my question though...

My answer is that if a grenade is thrown in a room [America] I have enjoyed the beauty of this earth enough to allow thoes in the room with me to survive.

Ah, my bad about you believing the official story. I will address your answers tomorrow since I'm extremely tired.

But again, weapons caches left for terrorists to pick up? you realize the USA disbanded the iraqi forces in charge of keeping tabs of these weapons. The Usa can account for about 5 percent of the total weapons caches in Iraq.

Who do you think kept a better tabs on the weapons caches in iraq? us or the disbanded generals who emptied out the caches and handed them out to "terrorists".

As soon as sadam fell his weapons became the insurgents weapons. Don't be fooled by some idealistic fantasy that this has allowed us to keep tabs on weapons.

Goodnight, We can continue tommorow.


[edit on 18-4-2007 by bullieblack]

So then, it would be your choice to die. When were the people who died asked whether or not they wanted to, to let everyone else enjoy the same beutiful earth? You say 3000 but I look at the Millions who have died throughout history ensuring our security? Are you active military?