No Alternative Theories are Required for 9/11 to have been a Conspiracy

It has come to my attention recently that an agenda is being pushed on this board with the expressed desire to pigeon hole non-believers and "lock them into" a particular "alternative theory'.

DO NOT FALL FOR THIS TRAP.

You DO NOT need to subscribe to any particular "alternative theory" to know that the government is not telling the truth about 9/11 and that there is most likely a conspiracy on their part.

Instead of being tricked/led to announce your positions on who did what and how or which possible alternative theories you may or may not believe in might I suggest that you simply announce that.

A. The NIST, FEMA and 9/11 Commission reports have errors, flaws, false testimony, suppressed algorithms and failed modeling. Same with NOVA and especially PM.

B. The government has systematically suppressed and/or destroyed most relevant physical, video, photographic and testimonial evidence.

C. All of the above named agencies and publishers MUST support and PROVE their stance as the burden of proof lies on THEM... not those who choose to question. They have FAILED TO DO THIS.

D. Alternative theories are simply that... theories... things that COULD have happened. We have non way of PROVING that they did until such a time as an impartial investigation is allowed and ALL evidence is released. Sadly, this has not happened and probably will not which is EXACTLY why certain posters here want you to cling to one so they can cut and paste their generic links and responses to each theory.

These posters have DESTROYED the conversation here. You cannot post a theory and discuss it. Your threads will be derailed, deflected and overrun. They will NOT answer your questions directly whilst demanding you answer theirs.

Finally and worst of all, they will try to tie you to ALL alternative theories in an attempt to make you look deranged (re: Space Lasers and Holograms, Pods, etc.)

Do not fall for the trap.

Demand ANSWERS from those that have "given us" "the TRUTH".

Thanks,

Pootie

I have noticed the same thing for a while here. On another note, I did some calculations on another thread and basically gave the other side some ammo. Funny thing is, not one of the people on the official side gave me a WATS award or anything. Not even a "good job" in the thread. This is very telling to me when they give each other WATS and high fives for posting a link to "screw loose change", but someone who took the time to actually calculate something, not even a word. I don't say this because I was wanting any WATS votes, but it's just something that struck me as odd.

Well said Pootie.

I have stayed away from similar threads too, for similar reasons, as there are so many way out theories which contribute nothing, but damage some threads - some you have already outlined in your post.

Perhaps these people work for the government. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was suggesting in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What do they have to lose by spreading disinformation on here?

Well spoken. In finding the who your focus should probably be in this order:

A - WHY
B - HOW
C - WHO

If you start with the WHY you will end up with the WHO.

Even though the WHY would be the easiest thing to discuss, this alas has been ignored in here.

I believe the 'Energy Beams/Space Weapons' and 'holograms' are nothing more then disinformation designed to make the 911 movement look like a bunch of nut jobs.

Originally posted by Pootie
Finally and worst of all, they will try to tie you to ALL alternative theories in an attempt to make you look deranged (re: Space Lasers and Holograms, Pods, etc.)

Do not fall for the trap.

I don't know anyone pushing pods or holograms. But if you're referring to TV-Fakery (CGI), it's already been definitively proven. Those who know how to apply the Laws of Physics know this. (Aluminum airplanes will not glide through steel/concrete buildings like they glide through the air Period. No ifs ands or buts.)

As far as space lasers... they already exist and are being used. And since directed-energy weapons (or similar type of exotic weapons) can explain all the data, then the exotic weapon theory is solid. Solid enough to be considered fact, since there's no other explanation. The towers there, then they vanished. Where'd they go? www.acebaker.com...

The 9/11 Coverup Perps have been brainwashing the Truth Movement into pushing the "many unanswered questions" nonsense, instead of going with actually happened. This was done by design. www.911researchers.com...

[edit on 13-4-2007 by CB_Brooklyn]

God knows I'm tangled up in prove-this-or-that BS , but I agree the endless how questions are tiring - reasonable minds would by now have compiled a list of most plausible scenarios and moved on to the other questions. Instead we get cartoons against cartoons. Certainty vs certainty. endless repetition. No logic. no progress. a whirlpool, or black hole. Into it go our time and energy, our most precious commodities.

The only crucial question we should be addressing is how American people are going to sidetrack their politicians (who are not brave enough to raise the issue of 9/11, especially two years before an election) and FORCE a re-investigation. When the government contains murderous people in its highest ranks and holds all the cards, it is very difficult to see how an independent investigation by honest people can be started when so many who might carry out this task are already compromised or tainted by helping a cover-up. America is in uncharted waters here. No country has ever faced such a massive conspiracy involving some of the most powerful people in its institutions. The academic issue of thermate vs directed energy weapons pales into insignificance compared with the problem of what legal course can be charted to bring the crooks and murderers to justice. Do we wait thirty or more years until the perpetrators confess their crimes on their deathbeds? Of course not. But which way ahead? Indeed, does one exist? The 9/11 truth movement can keep growing and growing. But politicians won't need to listen to them as long as they can believe there will be enough people to vote for them who don't think there are problems with the official version of 9/11. Legal challenges of the kind being undertaken by Dr Judy Wood will probably get bogged down. They will no doubt be shut down by some judge as soon as it shows any chance of damaging the government's position. That's if the media ever let Americans hear about it!

It is hard to be optimistic that the truth will ever come out in an OFFICIAL way, however many people continue to wake up to it. The legal problem seems too huge for ANY American institution to handle, assuming one even exists now that is sufficiently free of government interference.

Faced with the mountainous obstacles facing PUBLIC disclosure and prosecution of those behind 9/11, all arguments about the details of how it happened seem utterly, utterly irrelevant. Most of the time, they amount only to saving face or point scoring - merely keyboard punch-ups in cyberspace.

Perhaps the 9/11 truth movement should spend all the energy it currently fritters away on arguing minor points on the crucial issue of how to initiate public investigation that will lead to prosecution of the guilty. Few have even started to address it.

I think that this thread deserves more attention. Where are all of the debunkers when I tell them there is nothing to debunk EXCEPT for the official story?

Pootie, it is because you are right.

Failing to defend any alternative theory is not evidence that any of them, or any alternate possibilities that nobody has even thought of yet, are not true. That's the point you're making right?

I agree with that.

But then you go on to say how, at least as far as you're concerned, there is a lack of evidence for theories that do not support the idea that 9/11 was a conspiracy. This is presented in such a way that it seems you are trying to establish that it was, in fact, a conspiracy.

That directly goes against the aphorism that you appear to be defending:
Lack of Evidence is Not Evidence.

Seems pretty ironic to me, and shows your bias.

I don't know if the official theories are correct, but I do know that they represent the vast majority of experts who, for the most part, agree... at least on the idea that it was not a conspiracy. In saying that it was a conspiracy, you are presenting an alternate theory, and you do still need a Why, How, and Who.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by Stiney]

Those who know how to apply the Laws of Physics know this. (Aluminum airplanes will not glide through steel/concrete buildings like they glide through the air Period. No ifs ands or buts.)

According to my personal experience, those who know how to apply the Laws of Physics don't agree. I've had people argue this to me, but none of them were really qualified to apply the Laws of Physics. Someone told me to take an aluminum can and try to jam it through steel bars. I agreed that it would be impossible but reminded him of the speed. From my basic understanding of the physics involved in this, I figure force is directly proportional to the speed and a great force will break the steel; in other words, if you're going fast enough, you can "glide through" anything.
Then I told him about the electromagnetic railgun:

The system demonstrated in Scotland is a one eighth scale predecessor of a U.S. Navy system that will be developed to fire guided projectiles at speeds greater than 2,500 km/second (Mach 7) for distances beyond 200 nautical miles.

...

The absence of energetic materials also eliminates the need for explosive safely standards for manufacturing, transportation, handling and storage.

Link
There are no explosives involved - the speed alone (Mach 7) can obliterate the target.
Then he asked me: if chalk hit a diamond at Mach 7, would it break the diamond?

So I decided to ask someone who knows how to apply the Laws of Physics. I asked what happens when a weak material impacts a strong material at extremely high speed - like chalk and diamond at Mach 7.

This is an excerpt from the response I got.

When impact velocities are high enough, the relative properties of the target and the object hitting the target don't matter much. Since the second world war, copper liners have been used in shaped charges to blow holes in steel armor. Because the copper is traveling at thousands of meters per second and can exert tremendous forces on the steel, it doesn't matter that the steel is much harder than the copper (which is likely in a liquid form anyway). See www.llnl.gov... for an interesting discussion about shaped charge research in which a shaped charge penetrated 3.4 meters of armor steel. In this article, because armor steel is not brittle, a hole from a shaped charge can be punched through it.

You can read the whole message here.



If you still think weak material can't break through strong material, watch water cut steel:

www.youtube.com...

If you come to me and say........"France is really not located in Europe like you've been told, it is located in Africa". The burden of proof is on you to offer a reasonable amount of evidence showing that France is really in Africa. It is not enough just to offer conjecture indicating that France may not be located in Europe. It is your responsibility to show that France is indeed in Africa. Merely trying to prove it's not in Europe falls short of proving anything.

So attention all you kooky 911 conspircy theorists! Let's see if you can focus your attention of trying to prove rather than merely trying to disprove. It is not enough for you to raise the idea that a missle (not a plane), must’ve hit the pentagon, because you think the mainstream media explanation is far-fetched. Same thing with your idea that a demolition team brought down the WTC. You must have some kind of proof that these missles, demolition explosives, government officials who were “in on it” actually exist. Or at the very least offer some reasonable evidence that they might’ve existed.

1)Where is the security video tape showing the demolition team planting the bombs in the WTC? Where are the credible eyewitnesses who claim to have seen them? Where are the friends, family and/or colleagues of the demo team, who must’ve knew something?

2)Where are the missle fragments and wreckage from the Pentagon? Where is the clear, definite, undoctorer video of the missle that 95% percent of the public would agree actually looks like a missle?

3) Where did the airline passenger’s disappear to on these flights?

4) Who are the government agents behind this plot? Where is the evidence showing that they knew something?

To merely dismiss these points by saying the government covered it all up is a gigantic cop out and doesn’t prove anything!

I urge you all to put behind your love and desire for conspiracy theories and read the truth at www.popularmechanics.com... All of the conjecture associated with the 911 conspicacy theories are easily debunked by this reputable non-biased publication.

Originally posted by iandavis
If you come to me and say........"France is really not located in Europe like you've been told, it is located in Africa". The burden of proof is on you to offer a reasonable amount of evidence showing that France is really in Africa. It is not enough just to offer conjecture indicating that France may not be located in Europe. It is your responsibility to show that France is indeed in Africa. Merely trying to prove it's not in Europe falls short of proving anything.

Bad comparison.

We can all go look at the EVIDENCE that France lies where it does. We have not "been told"... we see the border crossing signs and "welcome to France"... the neighbors agree and the surveyor drawings are PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. We call this EVIDENCE and PROOF.

the gov't has withheld the physical, photographic, video and testimonial evidence from 9/11.

Without this evidence being made public their "Official STORY" is NOTHING MORE... a story. No evidence or proof available.
Your four questions ARE WAY OFF TOPIC and it is my hope that they are addressed for you in the appropriate threads... if you use search, you will find that there are MANY, MANY threads addressing all of those questions.

[edit on 30-4-2007 by Pootie]

Originally posted by Stiney
I don't know if the official theories are correct, but I do know that they represent the vast majority of experts who, for the most part, agree... at least on the idea that it was not a conspiracy.

That sentence is funny... reads like an NIST document.

Now, Stiney... If they released the THOUSANDS of photos and videos, some physical steel samples, black boxes and ALL of the secret testimonies...

Would we even need to talk about this?

The gov't THEORIES have been no more proven than most of the theories here... well, other than "the foot of God, etc".

It's all very well to say "Well, if you believe there's something wrong with the official explanation, prove your point of view instead".

Quite simply all that we can say in response to something like that is "This particular fact in the official version doesn't really make sense, and this historical precedent seems to suggest that.."

Without evidence, without information, all we have is conjecture. I think the vast majority of people who disbelieve the official story simply want the official story to be backed up with proof, also. Let us see the evidence, let us see how you came to the conclusions you have. What reasoning is there for not allowing us to do so?

I'm not sure how many of you have a background in science, so maybe you're not really aware of the scientific process, how it works and is supposed to work.

Say you're, oh, I dunno, say you're Einstein. Einstein's theories when he released them didn't really seem to make sense. They contradicted much of what was known about physics at that time. Admittedly, there were other physicists working on things around the subject simultaneously, but we're just using einstein as an example, since his work is moderately well known.

The scientific process by which we would determine if Einstein was a genius, or a crackpot, would be this.

He would publish his work in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Details, theories, experimental procedures, formulae, the lot.

And then, all around the globe, armed with that information, scientists would attempt to duplicate his results independently. They'd report back to the scientific community at large, and depending on the results, this might go around a couple more times, while einstein refined his theories and more people tried them, but in the end, backed up by independent conclusions and scientific dialogue, the community would accept that he was actually a genius, not a certifiable lunatic.

When it comes to 9/11, this scientific peer review process is absent. A small number of people are allowed access to specific pieces and bits of the information necessary to come to conclusions, and one group are the only ones with the full access - the ones that wrote the official report. Instead of letting the rest of the world, the scientific community, and the public come to the *same* conclusions independently, we are told that "this is the theory, it is not open to discussion", essentially.

I don't know if I believe there is a conspiracy or not. What I do believe, however, is that I should have the right to make my own conclusions, based on fully available data.

If there is no conspiracy, who does it hurt to reveal information about a past event? National security? The vast majority of the infrastructure of national security has changed since 9/11 BECAUSE of 9/11, so I doubt this argument holds much weight.

If there is no conspiracy, there is no harm to revealing information, except for the possibility that there were perhaps security oversights and failures, in which case, should those people responsible not be held accountable for what amounts to manslaughter? Depraved indifference? Withholding information keeps those people safe, but do they deserve to be kept safe?

If there is a conspiracy, then there is harm in revealing the full story, the full information, because it would obviously show exactly who was responsible, and why, and in what degree were they culpable in the massacre of thousands of people.

I can't think of any argument for with-holding the information which does not require protection of wrong-doers.

Can you?

Originally posted by Stiney
From my basic understanding of the physics involved in this, I figure force is directly proportional to the speed and a great force will break the steel;

I don't think so...

Switch it around and imagine the plane was stationary, and someone took one of the towers and whacked the plane with it at 400 MPH. Would the building crush the plane, or would it glide through the plane?

Or take your aluminum can and whack it with a steel bar...

No matter how you do it the steel will win every time, regardless of speed and what hits what first.

The plane didn't even flinch when it entered the tower.

Pootie Quote>"we see the border crossing signs and "welcome to France"...

Right……and the whole planet saw the planes fly into the buildings and the first pancake of each tower occur at the same level the planes had impacted. Anyone who’s seen a real demolition can tell that the twin towers were not brought down by explosives. A demo’d building does not pancake from top to bottom like the twin towers did.

The whole also world saw Bin Laden on television taking credit for the plot.

The whole world saw and read the interviews of the family members and friends who told of their cell phone conversations with their loved ones who were on these planes. The same loved ones who stated that middle eastern looking terrorists had hijacked their planes.

Obviously, I could go on and on about the truth, but according to your logic, it’s all an elaborate cover-up with people lying. I’m sure you think the Bin Laden tape is a fake. The family members are lying about their conversations or have been mislead. The passengers on all of the planes are being held hostage or have been executed and the planes in a secret government hanger, etc, etc. Well using your logic, the border crossing signs are part of a conspiracy cover-up that the French government along with it’s citizens are in on in an effort to fool the world about the African nation of France.

The bottomline here is proof. None exists for Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, your 911 conspiracy or Elvis hiding out at Burger King eating a peanut butter and banana whopper!

Originally posted by iandavis
The bottomline here is proof. None exists for Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, your 911 conspiracy or Elvis hiding out at Burger King eating a peanut butter and banana whopper!

You're right. Can you go read my previous post and the point I made that for us to believe the "official theory" it'd be nice to have some validated proof too? Rather than attempting to discredit those of us who question by associating us with ridiculous images, please, respond to the points I made about the scientific method, or the questions I had about the reasons to withhold information.

Thanks!