Genetically engendered "super-humans" vs ordinary humans

Will it finally be that genetic engineering is about creating a master race - and not all about eliminating disease?
Eugenic of Third Reich!? "Purified" by selective breeding?

Today it is about changing in tissue cells - but what about possibility in future to altered genes in germ cells (ones who give raise to sperm /egg) - and that enabled transmission from one generation to other.

Will "we" abuse that power? "We" being upper eshalones of with and power.

Pandora box is now open - there is no way to undo .

And I am not thinking here in terms of " playing God.

Would it be blue eyes vs brown? Poor left behind - spices split in two: super humans and just humans.

What would happen if parents could choose the sex, race and even the features of their unborn babies? And, more immediately, how will we live in a world where our DNA tells so much about us? Do we really want schools, insurance companies, employers, salesmen and the government reading our personal blueprints?

Should we even be fooling around with the basic secrets of life?

Some have predicted a world of genetic prejudice, where rich and powerful people can artificially alter their genes and those of their kids to remove all defects.

That means the rest of us with ordinary imperfect genes, could be considered inferior. Some people even imagine a time when an elite group could genetically engineer themselves and their children into a new "super-species" that would actually be genetically distinct from humans as we now know them.

www.pbs.org...

[edit on 3-4-2007 by blue bird]

The danger is we dont really know as much as we think we do......
IE.... Occult science tells us that our genes are programmed by (i think) the "permenant karmic atoms" (or something) that carry across our traits and tendencies from past lives....ETC......

If this is true then by genetic manipulation we will be attracting souls who have an afinity to these traits.........And if the changes we make have other unforseen curcumsances then our offspring may well have less obvious "defects" but who knows what else (traits ETC)we are unwittingly "asking for"....

ON a bit of a tangent:
www.scienceagogo.com...
This is interesting......

Why do you insist on preventing humans from helping eliminate pain? That is what you are doing by saying that it is wrong for us to perfect ourselves.

I grew up with that sort of social conditioning.

There was a point in the first grade where the playground was full of kids who refused to play with you if you had brown eyes. No reason was given, other than the difference in color.

I always wondered where those kids got that idea in the first place. Pretty random thing that kids do - but, is it rooted in something more sinister?

Who knows?

I'll admit I've read just about everything under the sun about brainwashing techniques, government programs to engineer the "perfect society", so on and so forth....but it's not as juvinille as the Nazi regime.


Don't worry, the ruling class will never let anything happen to their labor source, their service class, and their white collar workers.

In the end - it's more about how productive you are to the system, genetics aside.

Arius your comment it simply sick. Perfect ourselves? Why dont you simply learn to eat right, exercise, clean the environment, educate yourself, and a host of other things besides just engineering your body? I for one do NOT want to see engineering of humans, if you "solve" one thing you invite another problem. Example: sickness, well less die then you have over population. Also, this engineering will have what effect on your ability to become immune to OTHER diseases and viruses 30 generations from now????
Learn to take care of your bodies, not mutate it into something else. That is just a sickos way of dodging the process of actually having to take care of themselves.

In the end - it's more about how productive you are to the system, genetics aside.

From a certain standpoint perhaps....
But I think it does not pay to think in terms that all the evils in the world are unified under the one banner... as conspiracy theorists tend to.....

Evey evil is not personified and controlled from a centralized source...
Some evils are inherent with-in us.

The idea of genetic improvement is a potent one.......
It is intoxicating..... so much so that it is way way beyond my capabilities to express just how enthraling this idea is......

It is the ultimate promise of a quick-fix to our problems as a race and a supposed shortcut to evolution and undreamed of possibilities......

And if genetics could be well understood from a multidimensional perspective.... taking into account its effects on the total human experience and cycle of birth and re-birth ETC..... then i would be all for it........

It is the unknowns which threaten us.......
And scientists who ignorantly assume they know infinitely more than they in fact do are to blame for this. For their crime is to confuse their theories for realities...... and to also ignorantly presume that what they percieve is a whole in itself..... I.E that the visible universe is the biggest portion of a basically closed self contained unit....

The danger with genetic manipulation is not inherent in it...
But that it is apparent that mankind is destined to dabble with powerful forces (probably) 3 or 4 hundred years before they will fully understand these......
And the problem here is that some problems may not manifest for a few generations and by then we may we have lost our original genetic legacy....
This would be a tragedy of un dreampt of proportions.....

But getting back to my main point....
The tendency of scientists to tinker with humanities genes is too much of a temptation... so much so that it is almost like a 6 year old put in front of the controls of his dads car....The keys are in the ignition and he thinks he knows all there is to know....

I can not see humanity exercising enough restraint to completely ignor genetic manipulation....
To make even small changes is so easy and the results instantanous and appear 100% successful in many cases....

Take this as an example of how easy it can be:

www.cosmosmagazine.com...


cut and paste.....
Thats all there is to it in some instances....
Imagine the US millitary in a future when they realize that their soildiers could have infared vision...?????
Or if they create a "service pack" for obesity......
A pill you can take before concieving that would splice and replace your "defective" (fat) genes with those of someone skinny and not bald.....

This is going to sell...
just like tobacco.......

Originally posted by Vekar
Arius your comment it simply sick. Perfect ourselves? Why dont you simply learn to eat right, exercise, clean the environment, educate yourself, and a host of other things besides just engineering your body? I for one do NOT want to see engineering of humans, if you "solve" one thing you invite another problem. Example: sickness, well less die then you have over population. Also, this engineering will have what effect on your ability to become immune to OTHER diseases and viruses 30 generations from now????
Learn to take care of your bodies, not mutate it into something else. That is just a sickos way of dodging the process of actually having to take care of themselves.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. I will not condemn you for it.

Whats wrong with overpopulation? Mankind will simply be forced as he has in the past to seek new frontiers to aleviate this overpopulation. Take the colonization of the new world by Great Britain. It has been one of the most vitalizing activities in the past 2000 years.

I for one don't think mankind should stagnant in his social evolution from hunter/gatherer to spacefaring/colonizing species. We shouldn't remain backward in our thinking as Vekar proposes. To not act in the best interests of our species to help prevent genetic diseases and improve the overall condition mankind finds himself is sick.

We should war against disease, starvation, and oppresive social conditions and not against our fellow man as Vekar proposes.

Overpopulation destroys the planet. It rapes it. You must be a Christian? I do not believe we have Dominion over the Earth, and should not over-rape it.
Animals have a natural equilibrium with nature, we have one-but have become removed from it, though it lies dormant.
Looking for new frontier should not be due to us trashing our apartment and ditching it to couch surf. Think of the cost your spending on toiletries/electricity for your hosts on Mars. I don't think we have to become the disease or plague we truly resemble as a whole.
Not to be off topic or anything.

My suspicion is that all that science breakthrough will benefit the once that are rich and could afford it ( at least at early stages - nuff for creating gap) - while the lower class will be left, stuck in what the nature gave them.

And what that would mean as a whole? What kind of tension would society like that bring up?

And further - can you imagine human desires powered by biotech? Imagine desire for long long   long life in a contest with well overpopulated planet.

What about creating disproportionately in sexes by selecting sex of our kids: what if majority want just boys?

Pursuit for 'perfection =happiness'....But to what end?



*my thanks to all of you for engaging in discussion

Arius: You are 100% wrong about all I have said. And nice try and trying to spit out blatant propaganda. Also, my opinion is not wrong, and never will be.

Overpopulation=starvation
Mankind=ALREADY CURIOUS SO WE ALREADY ARE EXPANDING THE FRONTIER!!!!
Britains colonization=Genocide of Native Americans, glad to know you want to keep that process going, it just proved you are a sicko.
Stagnant= Are we? Look around you, if we were stagnant we would still be using sticks and stones. Get a grip! WE USE AIRPLANES NOW! We have SPACE SHUTTLES! SPACE STATIONS! WE ARE NOT STAGNANT!!!!
Backward Thinking= Show a quote where I said we should remain backwards! SHOW ME! Oh thats right!!! YOU CANT! I NEVER SAID THAT!!! YOU did!! The only backwards thinking HERE is your own which is sloppy to say the least and full of propaganda. Every year we come out with new technology to better ourselves and we DO NOT need to engineer our bodies to further this. Humans are still evolving in their own way.
Ever hear of MEDICINE!?!?!? We have MEDICINE for a reason! IT PREVENTS THESE DISEASES!!!! How did small pox get cured? A man found a similar disease that he could put into other humans and it would make them immune!!! NO GENETIC ENGINEERING OF HUMANS NEEDED! OUR BODIES DO IT FOR US!
Genetic Diseases: Radiation, pollution and air pollution cause most of this! SO FIX THESE AND YOU FIX PART OF THE PROBLEM! THEN STOP SLEEPING WITH YOUR SISTER LIKE SOME PEOPLE DO IN MY STATE! Your statement against me does not hold water, you want to avoid solving the problems we have created and just hide from it with genetic engineering. YOU are a problem in society.
SHOW ME THE QUOTE WHERE I SAID WE SHOULD NOT STOP: Starvation, disease and oppression!! SHOW ME!! OH THATS RIGHT! YOU CANT! You made that up!!!
We DO NOT need to engineer our bodies to solve these problems, SIMPLY FIX THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE AROUND US FIRST! THAT SOLVES MOST OF IT! Engineering a body will NOT stop oppression, it will only allow those with the super human bodies to beat up on the ones without should they augment their muscles and learn how to use it!

Humans are naturally curious, expanding, growing, evolving, and for some: caring. Others like Arius: they like to dodge the problems created and just engineer someone rather than find a more viable and simple solution. Most of the diseases that COULD have wiped us off the planet were stopped simply because a human decided NOT to look for a way of ENGINEERING another human but to find a simple solution that would allow us to get around the problem. Small pox was the example.

Arius, grow up, get a grip, put down your propaganda-101 book and think hard about humanity. We DO NOT OWN this planet, we are a PART OF IT! We must COEXIST with other beings. There are plants and animals that have been around longer than humans on this planet and they still live, why? They evolved! Humans evolve in a different way: the mind. Maybe YOU want to look like Arnold Swartzenegar but I for one do NOT. I would rather further my mind and be able to cure people with simple remedies and not have to engineer their bodies. I would rather be able to OUTSMART my enemy not have to engineer someone to fight them.
Arius, your blatant with propaganda, if you want to keep challanging me I suggest you drop this use of propaganda because it makes it INCREDIBLY easy to shoot your comments down.

Imagine for a moment that you go to the doctor and he lets you know that you have colon cancer.

That's right, the big C

You've got it. That would be quite a shock to the system. Then you see the doctor preparing a syringe and you ask what he's doing.

He tells you that the genetic engineers have perfected a cure for your type of cancer and that he will be giving you the injection. It will also improve your muscle tone, your complection and and assortment of other conditions.

Will science get to this point?

Imagine for a moment that you go to the doctor and he lets you know that you have colon cancer.

Cancer is not human genetic disease - at the best it is a 'tendency' to develop cancer...or arthritis...or to go bold.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by blue bird]

Originally posted by Vekar
Arius, your blatant with propaganda, if you want to keep challanging me I suggest you drop this use of propaganda because it makes it INCREDIBLY easy to shoot your comments down.

Vekar I apologize for approaching you the wrong way. First I would like to validate you as a human being and let you know that I appreciate the fact that you can facilitate an opinion on such things. That being said I must still inform you that your views on this are short sighted, self motivated and based largely on personal feelings. Feelings must be separated from this issue. We must as moral beings take measures however hard they may be now that our children might live in a better world.

Would it be blue eyes vs brown? Poor left behind - spices split in two: super humans and just humans.

I highly doubt things would turn out to be that simple. There are those who may wish to boil it down to that and those people are the real danger, no matter if they are Human, Cyborg, or some other type of creature.

I frankly believe that knowledge in Genetics, Information Technology, Neurology, Nanotechnology, Cybernetics, etc. will cause our Species to begin to diverge in to several different lines. I do believe that the Human line will stay around for a long time to come as the thing that makes Humanity special is it's ability to adapt to rapidly shifting climates. It's the reason why you can find us in just about every ecological zone on this planet. However, no matter how specialized in adaptation we are, we can never breath Underwater or Survive a hard vacuum. I can see two different species of Humanity emerging through a combination of Overpopulation pressures and Technological Innovation. That is what will drive that kind of speciation.

As for this illusion of perfection, I fear those people who believe it is possible because I don't know how far they will eventually take it. For every artificial adaptation, there will be trade offs, mark my words.

As long as we retain our empathy, we will still remain regular people at the most basic level. When we lose empathy, we stop being people and become machines ready to be programmed by the MAN(whomever that MAN may be).

Originally posted by arius
Why do you insist on preventing humans from helping eliminate pain? That is what you are doing by saying that it is wrong for us to perfect ourselves.

First off, despite it's, well 'painful' effects, pain is one of the best things that can happen to us. Scientifically speaking without pain we wouldn't know if:
* Bones were broken.
* Cuts/scrapes had been inflicted on us.
I could go on forever

Also I'm all for the perfection of the human condition. However I disagree with this as:
1:Changing eye/hair colour on a genetic level will not lead the human race closer to 'perfection' and
2. Who do you think will be able to afford this treatment? Certainly not Joe Average.

Originally posted by sardion2000
I frankly believe that knowledge in Genetics, Information Technology, Neurology, Nanotechnology, Cybernetics, etc. will cause our Species to begin to diverge in to several different lines. I do believe that the Human line will stay around for a long time to come as the thing that makes Humanity special is it's ability to adapt to rapidly shifting climates. It's the reason why you can find us in just about every ecological zone on this planet. However, no matter how specialized in adaptation we are, we can never breath Underwater or Survive a hard vacuum. I can see two different species of Humanity emerging through a combination of Overpopulation pressures and Technological Innovation. That is what will drive that kind of speciation.


As long as we retain our empathy, we will still remain regular people at the most basic level. When we lose empathy, we stop being people and become machines ready to be programmed by the MAN(whomever that MAN may be).

You must be very naive or very young!

PROF. LEE SILVER (Geneticist, Princeton University): Designer babies actually cause a future that is much more horrible than anything that Huxley could have imagined in his book Brave New World because it’s going to increase the gap between the haves and the have-nots.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by blue bird]

Umm, ok... Second year Engineering student here. But whatever... I never advocated Designer baby's except to cure disease. Way to put words in my mouth.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by sardion2000]

I have no personal feelings in what I have said, just observation of the world around me. Such engineering would cause severe problems. Others have already mentioned more problems caused. When you no longer rely on your body (natural) to accomplish something and just take a shot you are weakening your system. When you trust it, work with it, know its strengths and weaknesses, YOU LIVE LONGER AND BETTER!
My views are for long term problems and effects, not short term. Also I include all people into the picture not myself.
If you want my PERSONAL oppinion based on feelings: You want one heck of a war then start engineering humans because I would feel more threatened than you could ever imagine. Because of that I would go to great length to kill those who are engineered for the fear of them abusing their new abilities. That is human nature, to abuse the power given. So there, THAT is my personal feelings on this not based on many facts but for one.
Anyway back to the serious me and the fact based me: Engineering will wipe out our dependency on intelligence and common sense. Why do you not go and jump from a 7 story building every day? IT WOULD KILL YOU! Common sense! Engineer yourself, then jump off and live. You just gained ARROGANCE. You might think it marvelous that you could live the fall, however it comes at a price. The more arrogant you become, the more likely you are to be killed by the most SIMPLE thing. Napoleon learned this the hard way along with ALL empires and would be empires. Hitler learned it the hard way. You let that arrogance thrive or even gain the slightest control over you it WILL be your downfall.
Let humans evolve by natural methods, not forced methods. It is also SAFER to let nature take care of itself. We naturally immunize ourselves, no need to engineer our bodies. Also engineering WOULD allow the rich to truely become demi-gods and lord over us like carrion birds.

lol, vekar, i wouldn't waste too much breathe on arius. she/he is predictable, and any comments directed towards you from him/her most likely are towards him/her-self.
...just from observation, i am not one to start wars here.

[edit on 5-4-2007 by jetflock]

Originally posted by Vekar
If you want my PERSONAL oppinion based on feelings: You want one heck of a war then start engineering humans because I would feel more threatened than you could ever imagine. Because of that I would go to great length to kill those who are engineered for the fear of them abusing their new abilities. That is human nature, to abuse the power given. So there, THAT is my personal feelings on this not based on many facts but for one.

Thank you for sharing your PERSONAL opinion based on feelings. It confirms my original statement that your stand is based on personal feelings. Those feelings are FEAR. You are against genetic science because you are afraid that you would be inadequate compared to the next generation of human beings. You are right you would be inadequate. I would also be inadequate. The point is that we should not let our fear of inadequacy prevent us from helping the next generation of humans have better lives. We should embrace this new technology on a world wide level and not simply for certain countries and/or certain races.

What I am proposing is not a master race but is the perfecting of the human body in whatever race you may be. Certain races are predisposed to heart disease while others are predisposed to sickle-cell anemia. Genetic science will enable us to determine this at or before birth and through good public health start these people on a lifestyle regimen to help them prevent its development. Or it may simply be as easy as a dna modifying enzyme injected into the developing fetus to modify this specific disease causing gene.

Anyway back to the serious me and the fact based me: Engineering will wipe out our dependency on intelligence and common sense. Why do you not go and jump from a 7 story building every day? IT WOULD KILL YOU! Common sense! Engineer yourself, then jump off and live. You just gained ARROGANCE. You might think it marvelous that you could live the fall, however it comes at a price. The more arrogant you become, the more likely you are to be killed by the most SIMPLE thing. Napoleon learned this the hard way along with ALL empires and would be empires. Hitler learned it the hard way. You let that arrogance thrive or even gain the slightest control over you it WILL be your downfall.

You have made a cogent point here. Medical science or genetic science can't cure stupid.

Let humans evolve by natural methods, not forced methods. It is also SAFER to let nature take care of itself. We naturally immunize ourselves, no need to engineer our bodies. Also engineering WOULD allow the rich to truely become demi-gods and lord over us like carrion birds.

This is why I feel that this undertaking should be done at a governmental level and not on a private free enterprise level. The technology is too dangerous to be left in the hands of evil men. However, we cannot let this fear prevent us from evolving a socially acceptable wide scale implementation of this technology.

By the way, nice post.