The Lasting Effects of Slavery

At this point, what does it matter? After all, to you the past is the past. It's not your heritage or your ancestors ridiculed and disrespected.

So with that out of the way, why should you even ask?

Forget about it. I'm looking forward to the next issues that will be discussed.



[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Truth,

Thanks for all the info; your comments and the comments of Others have taught me much in this thread.

Now I know what Denying Ignorance is all about!

What really bugs me is what those ANIMALS got away with!

I am just lucky to know who they are...I can identify them a mile away, and yes, I have my fist thrust up at all times...especially in the sixties, where at an undisclosed location, I was taught how to survive in this lion's den. Nothing has really changed...it's just a little different.

I am the founder and director of an organization which has made a big difference in my community; we enable young people to do things they have only dreamed of. Accomplishment, in spite of it all...that's the wonder!

Today I am elated because I am offering an Apprenticeship to a young man who (I have heard) has run out of options; he's disgusted, and tired of looking for a job. He can go in, work hard, and end up in the Union, with a career. I went out and begged for this job for "one of my young people", lol! I expect him to do well, and I have a brand new working wardrobe to offer him. This is just about what I do every day(7 days a week)...try to undo the mess...and maybe that's why I'm so "jaded".

I'm disappointed I cannot get an answer to any of my questions. I'm not going to insist, because maybe some things are better left unsaid; maybe some things aren't meant to be said in certain company, but it leaves me saddened just the same. I'll just have to be content with being in the dark on some matters for now.

Not all students effectively learn the same from all teaching philosophies. I need to ask questions to make sense of things in my own mind.

I'll will wait for another teacher.

JM,

Hate? Do you hate the expression?

For those who don't want their children called "Master's Children"...they should not own slaves and act as a Master...don't you think?

It's a title, just like Slave or, like myself, I am the DESCENDANT OF SLAVES. And between you and me, I don't like the designation much, either.

What makes you think it's hateful? It's a matter of HISTORY that you and nobody else can change. But do acknowledge that his children act just like him.

Simply put, they are BARBARIANS!

BH,

Some slaves were happy? Ain't that an oxymoron?

I can't even begin to understand exactly what you mean...

How happy?

CSIfan, I apologize for my posts this afternoon. I did not mean to throw your thread off track. And I believe that it took away from the message of what you were trying to say.

It is fair to note, though, that what I was talking about has nothing to do with misery or being stuck in the past.

However, I am very frustrated because I am also a descendant of slaves. And, I find that the words of indifference and ridicule is uncalled for. And it makes me sad.

But even in all this, we must continue to persevere.

And I still thank you for doing this thread because it is highly needed to be discussed.

That's great CSIFan, what bothers me, though, is how people want free stuff because of it. "My ancestors were slaves! Give me handouts!"

Yeah, Ceci...

but it's difficult to express your feelings when people speak abusively.

One minute people say their family had nothing to do with slavery, and the next minute they are angry that I spoke of THE MASTER'S CHILDREN...hmmm, I smell something?

Maybe I should just keep my pain all inside, never speak of it...just "hush up", so everyone would be comfortable and HAPPY, you know, like those happy slaves.

Enough bull, you spoke of reparations. What reparations do you want, how should they be enforced, who should pay?

JM,

Oh, Yes, my favorite subject, Reparations...

Okay, not a dime from you...Uncle Sam should pay.

Let's see, how much is it worth, screwing up the future for my entire clan?

Letting it be legal for my ancestors to be enslaved on American soil?

Allowing murders, rapes, the buying and selling of human beings, my family?

...and the worst of all, TAXING OF THE SLAVERY TRADE BY THE USA!

A conservative estimate, one million dollars and/or 40 acres and a mule (with interest), as promised.

JM, make it happen for me, I got faith in you!

Originally posted by CSIfan
JM,

Oh, Yes, my favorite subject, Reparations...

Okay, not a dime from you...Uncle Sam should pay.

Let's see, how much is it worth, screwing up the future for my entire clan?

Letting it be legal for my ancestors to be enslaved on American soil?

Allowing murders, rapes, the buying and selling of human beings, my family?

...and the worst of all, TAXING OF THE SLAVERY TRADE BY THE USA!

A conservative estimate, one million dollars and/or 40 acres and a mule (with interest), as promised.

JM, make it happen for me, I got faith in you!

"Uncle Sam" is my tax money. I don't owe you a dime.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
CSI, great opening post. I have never seen those points layed out so eloquently, and concise. Only the truly retarded could fail to understand and empathize with them.

Well, thank you very much!

I am hoping that you have the propensity to help me help you. I've asked what I can do to help mitigate the situation, and I've been given a slew of things to do. Then I'm told that no matter how much of those I do, it won't be enough; that there is nothing I can really do to help.

Just your asking is enough for me, really. What you can do for others in the same boat is to help them in some way....understand the pain; be a big brother; help a kid get a job; talk to somebody about the joys of college, help them fill out their application or resume, be part of the solution.

1. So where does that leave us?

If the current government, and I mean the people in the government, because thats all a government is, the people who participate, decide that monetary reperations are what's needed, then so be it. I really don't have a problem with it - but my concern is after. I know that those reperations will not mitigate the feelings that you laid out so well in the OP.

The payment from the Government will allow many people who, based on their longevity and hard work in this great land of opportunity, should have their own home or business (things that were denied them by a complicit government), and a sort of financial freedom.

2. So again, where does that leave us?

The economy will boom! African Americans buying homes, cars, sending their kids to college, not jail. Young people feeling the redemption that comes with a tangible apology. The anger can and will subside...

3. Would you tell me some examples of succesfull black persons, you feel are uncle toms, and why?and give me examples of succesfull black persons who are not uncle toms and why?

One each, I don't like what Bill Cosby said...it was like just grinding his boot in the face of Black America. You can't treat people like that, even if you're Black too...that was a nasty thing to do to a people who are already down; and I refuse to discuss the merit of his statement. It's like announcing that your husband is impotent at a press conference. A man like him has resources, resources to reach out and try to help in a "hands-on" way. But, noooo, he would rather publicly insult people who struggle daily. Really, if I ever met him, I would give him a piece of my mind! Contrast "Uncle Bill" with me...not wealthy by any means; barely getting by on a pension, but big on dreams! My old behind can carry a computer from house to house...and I have delivered 48 computers to community homes in the last 3 years. I have arthritis in the knees to show for it, but when I leave, those parents and their children have just been ushered into the "age of technology" for free! No insults, just love, and best wishes for them in their quest for excellence. I have 18 violins sitting in my living room, and twice a week I have free classes for the community kids, two teachers volunteer, one Black and one White, and I love them both...they share my dream! Where do you think I get the computers from? All types of people! People I don't even know call, they have heard about me...I pick up the computers, hug them tight, thank them and go...I give computers to all types of people, Black, Hispanic and White. I am not prejudiced. I just want to help. I am not funded by anyone, and don't want to be. But if I get my reparations, which I know I am entitled to, I could do even bigger stuff. Do you know that inner-city kids hardly leave "the block" in the summer...oh, to be able to take them to amusement parks, bus trips, apple picking! Fresh air, dreams, hopes!

Old "Uncle Bill" just ought to STOP! and think for a minute...and roll up his sleeves like I did!


[edit on 1-4-2007 by CSIfan]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
4. Would you, or could you also explain to me what 'black culture' in America is?
If you can answer these questions for me, you will be my hero.

Okay, Black Culture in America, sounds like a magazine article, but let me just give you what I got, you figure it out...

Darkness and Suffering, misery that you can't describe, that mutual knowing that Death Will be Sweet...Freedom, Lord When? But alas, the only freedom was Death. Ten or more generations of that...opting to not be too connected to a mate or child lest they be sold "away", no pay, nothing but slavery, beatings, rapes, day in, day out...Lord even the days were dark! (weeping loudly now)..."OMG, Grandma, Granddaddy, if I could just reach out and wipe your brow, take my hand...I could pull you here, to my breast...to 2007! I'm so sorry for your suffering...but you held out and prayed for MY freedom...I'm sorry that you suffered and prayed for something that will never be! I am here in 2007, and it is as if I am there with you! Massa won't ever let us be free..." Yes, they have changed some laws, but the hate is still there, and Massa has the nerve to say that WE are prejudiced!

After the so-called FREEDOM: People migrated from the South...up North, out West...all over, trying to find some peace, and get away from "the scene of the crime"...some stayed. Those who left took housekeeping jobs, cooking, cleaning, constructions, railroad jobs, Blacks were everywhere...trying to make it in America, with no formal educations. Having to take a beating sometimes at the Polls, or just simply staying away, and warning their children to be careful...

The Civil Rights Movement effectively canceled out itself. While getting us into the Whites Only places, it has almost wiped out the "colored people's stores", the black universities, and instead of service industries to serve other Blacks, we now abandon those industries for the "shinier" ones, formerly the "Whites only" places. We have mostly become consumers. Proportionately, very few African American owned businesses survive the Civil Rights movement.

From the thrust of young people let into colleges nationwide, we have some innovators, many "first" this and "first" that's. We have politicians, teachers, athletes, actors, everything...all that struggle, but strangely enough, we are still the most despised group on Earth. Massa brutalized us, AND ruined our reputations worldwide...remember those horrible Hollywood Productions? The ones where, even if college educated, you had to shuffle and act like some kind of old minstrel, or you wouldn't get the job! Public relations? No, we didn't dominate the PR business or we would have fixed that...

Time passes, and then comes Rap! It angers people, they recoil because of it's "downright base-ness", but most of us know, the children are angry...angry because of the legacy we allowed them to inherit. They wouldn't sing about killing cops if we elders had stopped cops from killing them. But, something strange happens...Rap becomes the medium that young people all over the world use to express their total disgust with the downsides of capitalism...don't look now, but somebody has spoiled it for all the young people of the world! And the worst part about it, is that, they are not as naive as we were at that age...they know it, and they don't like it.

As in Slavery, all that is left is hope...now African Americans have a hope that, one-by-one, kids can grow up safely, get a good education, not get treated too badly by Master's Children, and live and be happy. Find a little peace in spite of it all...

I must admit that living in the Ghetto is fun; a hip-shaking, mind-boggling, all the way live, experience. I would certainly have to build my house here (you know, when I get my reparations, which I am fully entitled to), which will improve the property tax base and enhance services.

Am I your Hero now?

[edit on 1-4-2007 by CSIfan]

Originally posted by CSIfan
For those who don't want their children called "Master's Children"...they should not own slaves and act as a Master...

Slavery in America ended 150 years ago. No one owns slaves. None of our parents or grandparents owned slaves in America. Your term is denegrating and historically inaccurate.

It's a matter of HISTORY

Nope. Your 'history' is screwed up. Very few people in this country owned slaves. Most did not. Many of us had ancestors who fought against slavery ... some giving their very lives to free slaves. And yet, you are seemingly lumping all white people together slamming them and calling them 'master's children' when in fact most would be either the DESCENDANT of liberators or the descendant of non-slave owners or descendant of immigrants who weren't even here yet.

Originally posted by CSIfan
when I get my reparations, which I am fully entitled to

1 - you are not 'entitled' to any handout.
2 - it's a handout, not reparations.
3 - you want money? Get a job.
4 - the line 'the money would come from the government' - really means it would come from us - the taxpayer. And I owe you NOTHING.
5 - :shk:

You make one grave mistake, CSIFan.

The government's money is tax money.

Tax money is from all the people of the United States.

I DO NOT OWE YOU ANYTHING, AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE MY GOVERNMENT HANDING THINGS OUT ON A BASIS OF RACE OR ANCESTRY.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Some slaves were happy? ...

I can't even begin to understand exactly what you mean...

I addressed this issue on page 2 of this thread:
www.abovepolitics.com...

Slavery is wrong, even if some slaves were happy. And I'm sure some were treated very well, and others very badly, but regardless, it is an evil concept.

I totally agree, Johnmike. I've never tried to make an excuse for slavery. Jesus, if that's what people are thinking, then I can understand the vitriol about my statement. Sorry, that's not at all what I meant.

This all came up because I made an observation that it seems to me that many black people today are so filled with anger about slavery (and their anger is directed at many white people) that it seems that many today are more angry than some of the actual slaves were!

In the time of slavery, most slave owners didn't know how evil it was. It's just what was done. They honestly thought of blacks as "lower". Kind of like we do dogs today. If we discovered that dogs were actually equal to us, we'd start treating them a lot differntly, but 200 years ago, most of the people actually didn't know any better because that's what they were taught.

In my opinion, to view the average slave owner as an evil person is a bit ignorant. They didn't know they were doing anything wrong. Slaves weren't considered to be human. Yes, that's wrong! Of course we know that's wrong, now! But many of them didn't. They were raised with slaves in the house and by slaves. It was the natural thing. Yes, we can look back on it now and see how insane it was, but that has no bearing on the "evilness" of your average slaveowner.

Mankind has always done immoral things and not realized it at the time. We do it today. We put people to death, telling ourselves that we have a good reason. It's LEGAL to kill people. We slaughter people by the thousands in a war that has no business being fought and we make excuses about how it's the right thing to do. Someday (hopefully) we'll look back on the immoral behavior of today and realize how evil it was.

But for now, most of us don't see how wrong what we're doing is. It's was the same with slavery. And many of the slaves (house slaves) were content to care for their white people and raise the children. I'm not saying slavery was right, I'm saying it was the thing to do and was accepted by many slaves and owners alike.

Slavery Sanctioned by the Bible

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

My father used the bible to justify his beating of his children. Many days I had welts across my backside, legs and back from the belt he gave to me with all his strength. In gym class, I dressed in the stalls because I was embarrassed for the other girls to see by battered and bruised body.

My father considered himself an honorable, God-fearing man. He honestly thought that "spare the rod, spoil the child" was a decree from God. I hated my father for that...

Until I grew up and realized that he was doing what he thought was right.

My point is that people do what everyone else is doing. They look around and guage their behavior by what others do. It seems strange that a father could chase a child around in circles with a belt and think that it's the right thing to do, but MANY fathers have done it. Many "non-evil" people have beaten their children.

Again, I'm not making excuses for slavery OR for beating a child. I'm trying to look at this thing rationally instead of emotionally.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by CSIfan

Originally posted by nextguyinline
CSI, great opening post. I have never seen those points layed out so eloquently, and concise. Only the truly retarded could fail to understand and empathize with them.

Well, thank you very much!

You already addressed this, but no problem. Your welcome, truth is truth.

I am hoping that you have the propensity to help me help you. I've asked what I can do to help mitigate the situation, and I've been given a slew of things to do. Then I'm told that no matter how much of those I do, it won't be enough; that there is nothing I can really do to help.

Just your asking is enough for me, really. What you can do for others in the same boat is to help them in some way....understand the pain; be a big brother; help a kid get a job; talk to somebody about the joys of college, help them fill out their application or resume, be part of the solution.

I'm happy to hear that. I do some of those things, and I'm glad that allows me some breathing room with you. It doesn't for others.

If the current government, and I mean the people in the government, because thats all a government is, the people who participate, decide that monetary reperations are what's needed, then so be it. I really don't have a problem with it - but my concern is after. I know that those reperations will not mitigate the feelings that you laid out so well in the OP.

The payment from the Government will allow many people who, based on their longevity and hard work in this great land of opportunity, should have their own home or business (things that were denied them by a complicit government), and a sort of financial freedom.

But you must agree, that even if that occured, the pain and resentment will not stop. That's what I meant by where does that leave us, you and me. Not where does that leave the black community.

I am absolutely positive that if the atrocities never occurred, not all black folk would own a home or a business today - just as not all white people owns homes or businesses today, even with racial priviledge. Some people don't aspire to those things, some people are incapable, some people just have terrible luck.

2. So again, where does that leave us?

The economy will boom! African Americans buying homes, cars, sending their kids to college, not jail. Young people feeling the redemption that comes with a tangible apology. The anger can and will subside...

I disagree. The anger will end, when the black community stops perpetuating the anger within itself, refuses to teach it's children the centuries old hate, by undrstanding that I am not a 'master's child' nor most of us. That we struggle as well to make it in this fouled up world, and that the real boogey man is the almighty dollar, and those who throw humanity and compassion to the curb, for that extra bit of it - white/black/red and yellow.

3. Would you tell me some examples of succesfull black persons, you feel are uncle toms, and why?and give me examples of succesfull black persons who are not uncle toms and why?

One each, I don't like what Bill Cosby said...it was like just grinding his boot in the face of Black America. You can't treat people like that, even if you're Black too...that was a nasty thing to do to a people who are already down; and I refuse to discuss the merit of his statement. It's like announcing that your husband is impotent at a press conference. A man like him has resources, resources to reach out and try to help in a "hands-on" way. But, noooo, he would rather publicly insult people who struggle daily. Really, if I ever met him, I would give him a piece of my mind! Contrast "Uncle Bill" with me...not wealthy by any means; barely getting by on a pension, but big on dreams! My old behind can carry a computer from house to house...and I have delivered 48 computers to community homes in the last 3 years. I have arthritis in the knees to show for it, but when I leave, those parents and their children have just been ushered into the "age of technology" for free! No insults, just love, and best wishes for them in their quest for excellence. I have 18 violins sitting in my living room, and twice a week I have free classes for the community kids, two teachers volunteer, one Black and one White, and I love them both...they share my dream! Where do you think I get the computers from? All types of people! People I don't even know call, they have heard about me...I pick up the computers, hug them tight, thank them and go...I give computers to all types of people, Black, Hispanic and White. I am not prejudiced. I just want to help. I am not funded by anyone, and don't want to be. But if I get my reparations, which I know I am entitled to, I could do even bigger stuff. Do you know that inner-city kids hardly leave "the block" in the summer...oh, to be able to take them to amusement parks, bus trips, apple picking! Fresh air, dreams, hopes!

Old "Uncle Bill" just ought to STOP! and think for a minute...and roll up his sleeves like I did!

I can't argue your feelings toward this one man. It looks like it's boiling down to successful black folk having to give something 'tangible' to the black community to escape the 'tom' title. As much as I think that's an injustice to these people and to your community as a whole, it's not my place to tell you that you are wrong. I'm more of the belief that the children need to see that they ARE capable of achieving success, and that they don't succomb to the 400 year 'inferiority' rhetoric. I think she sums up my feelings well.

Your explaination of black culture just reinforced my belief that there is no black culture, we all share the same culture - but it did reinforce the mindset of the black community.

Thank you for the taking the time to answer, you are the first, and hopefully not the last. I wish you great success in your endeavors.