The Lasting Effects of Slavery

Part 1

I'm new to ATS, and Social Issues, but I see that a lot of members wonder why we African Americans continue to refer to slavery as a kind of historical touchstone. It happened ages ago-- why should anyone care now?

Why do descendants of American slaves ask for reparations?

I just need to say a few things...maybe that will help others, of all races, understand the feelings, not of all, but just one African American (descended from slaves) and born and raised here in America.

The pain and shame is something that you can never understand. Although my ancestors suffered the pain/shame long time ago, I am heartsick about it.

No, I am not crazy, just haunted by images...of what was allowed to happen to someone because they look like me. Here in America.

At 5 yrs old, in NYC, I was getting ready to visit Southern relatives...my Mother warned me not to say anything that would make a White Person angry, what could happen to me down south! You see, when you mentally & physically abuse an entire Nation of people, that abuse is handed down through each generation...gestures, speech, forced humility, inferiority ("don't look them in the eye, look down to the ground)". Yes, it becomes the fabric of that Nation.

Did you know that when you apply to adopt a child, you are disqualified if you have been an abused child? Well, try to parallel that concept with an entire Nation of abused people? Try to imagine the parenting skills of people who were reluctant to love their own children because they could be sold "away" at any moment? Try to wonder why some women murdered their own children after birth, just so they would never know slavery or, if a daughter, rape? Try to see how a woman could love a man who was set up by a master to be her mate? So, was that, or wasn't that something like destroying the fiber of the African family? This was INSANITY, and on American Soil!

How about the rapes? Beatings? Auction block? The total humiliation of a human being? And now someone wants to know why the children and grandchildren of these people want compensation?

The children and grandchildren of America's slaves live with the pain, I lived with the pain. Sometimes I feel that I am better, and some days it comes back, the horror of it all. I see it all around me. Families so totally insane, acting out the horror of Slavery, today in 2007.

I like to use this example to describe the after effects of the mass torture of African Slaves: Take 1000 people, have them line up, and hit each one on their head with a baseball bat as hard as you possibly can...okay, now, this is what you might get:

10 per cent may die immediately

40 per cent may not ever be “quite right” again

40 per cent may have pain for a while, and be okay later

10 percent may not show that they are even hurt, and may go on to appear fine and live good lives

What I see today is that most descendants of American Slaves continue to suffer from slavery one way or another. Lynchings, mental and physical, continue...

But here's where it gets hairy: during my 'healing process", I began to realize that I need to keep up my guard. And to be vigilant...

The "other children", the children of the Master...this is scary...The generations who were descended from "The Master", they were raised by him, and all his hatred, torture, rapes...the sickness of the Master...a man who could buy and sell human beings...kill at will…








[edit on 29-3-2007 by CSIfan]

Part 2

His children's children are sick too! His "generations"...they are out there, they are people who have been raised to think like "The Master. And, I meet them everyday!

They run large corporations and make government policy, they are wealthy, appear normal and happy (but cold and conniving), and they have decided to never allow this country to pay reparations, how dare we ask? They would rather spend billions to build bombs to kill people in far off countries than concede to repay people who worked faithfully from sunup to sundown, virtually from birth to death, for free, no holidays, no vacations, no retirement, no pension…death was retirement, death was FREEDOM!

Many of their “inherited” fortunes were amassed through American Slavery!

And now, we speak of the after effects of that wonderful time for Master and his descendants; but why does Master’s children and grandchildren want to hush us up?

So, this is why I think we are owed reparations, which will certainly be mostly spent on much needed therapy (at least in my case).

I wonder, does anyone understand my feelings?

Can a Country like America allow policies that drive people insane? Can a Country like America tax the labor of Slavery and fill it's coffers with an ill gained wealth?

I want to hear how you feel about this.




[edit on 29-3-2007 by CSIfan]

Very very well said and for it you have my way above vote.

Although I have never myself been subjected to this type of behaviour I have to take some responsibility for the actions of "my" people.
It shouldn't be this way, it never should have been but it did happen and the generations of people after are having to bear those scars.

It's the quiet kind of hurt that you carry that gets lost on most. People only hear the "squeaky wheels" of the African American. Those that cry injustice and look for hand outs. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I see too that it continues to be passed down. You will always look to the ground and never someone directly in the eye because it's what has been taught and it's ingrained.

I was actually just thinking about this the other day. I was walking down the hall at my work and there was the janitor cleaning the floor. A black man. We have many African American janitors in our bldg and Latina's cleaning our bathrooms. Why is that?
How often do you see a white person doing those types of jobs?

Is this the same reduction of equality only now they earn a salary albeit a small one? Or it is because this is all they know? Because the hopes and dreams of the African American people have been forever reduced to what's left over in our country?

I don't know the answer. I can only say that regardless that slavery was long ago abolished there will always however wrong be a line that divides our nation.

For that I am so very sorry.

Originally posted by DDay

Very very well said and for it you have my way above vote.

Oh My, thank you, I am honored!

Although I have never myself been subjected to this type of behaviour I have to take some responsibility for the actions of "my" people.

By your people, I hope you mean our government, because I directly blame the body of law, the taxer...you see, a Master on his own couldn't perpetrate this alone. The world is full of "men who would be kings", but this country, the constitution, freedom...all the tweaky words, for others, but not for me. So, there's your real culprit, the government, the Master and his children's children are secondary...not innocent, just secondary.

It's the quiet kind of hurt that you carry that gets lost on most. People only hear the "squeaky wheels" of the African American. Those that cry injustice and look for hand outs. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I understand you...you're talking about the 40 percent who were never quite right after the torture...yes, dysfunctional (handouts?), the walking dead, and the other 40 percent who are okay (but some are squeaky wheels), and still they cry out in protest and let the world know of the pain that they endure even today.

Oh and ?Handouts?, do you mean social services or welfare payments?

Hey CSIfan, great post!

You know what's funny? Most white people assume that black people who want reparations just want free money from the government. They willfully ignore the principle of the whole thing.

They say "everybody was slaves." Sure, the Blackamoors had white slaves in Spain and Portugal, for example. But, America STILL stands out as the country with the most barbaric slave history. And that's just the slavery; the continued subjugation of the "freed" slaves is a whole 'nother stinking mess.

Hell, Israel inflated the deaths of the Holocaust, just to get more money out of Germany. The Zionists don't give a damn about the Jewish victims needing reparations; they're just greedy bastards. Even during the Holocaust, the Zionist bastards didn't give a damn about the Jewish people being exterminated in Germany.

Personally, I don't want reparation money from the government, or even from corporations still in existence that benefitted from slavery. I'd take 40 acres and a mule, though. Real talk, an APOLOGY from the US govt to black America is what I would really like. But I'd have better luck getting reparation money.

CSIfan, you want to see evidence the legacy of slavery? Take a look at the White House and the Capitol building...brought to you in part by slave labor.

No CSI I don't mean social services and welfare. This is where it was beginning to get hard for me to explain what I was trying to convey and this is where I will stop trying to.

This is such a huge subject to delve into to.
I do mean when I said "my people" actually caucasions and yes the gov. It was our president that abolished slavery but we never made things right. How could anyone? And this is where the line will always be drawn because one doesn't trust the other and never will.

I lived in the south all of my life until recently and there was always a transparancy. You could drive anywhere in any direction and see the ghosts of a past so horrible it still leaves a film.

How could anyone take that back? Undo it?
So the stories will continue to be told to you and many others and you will tell them to your children and you will keep it alive because it was a part of everyone you knew in your past and their past and so on. Maybe it's part of healing for you or perhaps keeping it alive keeps it raw, I don't know.

But I do understand that part of the grieving.

Truthseeeka, absolutely!

40 Acres and a cute little mule would suit me just fine...but that won't take away the bestiality of it all, nor the nightmares. Sometimes I wonder if it can happen again, here...oh, but isn't it happening in Iraq now? Same people, the Masters? Are Master's descendants ever going to change?

America still "executes" and that says all...so much for civilization here, ever!

But, in lieu of the land and the critter, heh, heh, I'll just ask for a refund of the taxes paid to the government on the labor of my ancestors (with interest)...I think there were about 10 or more generations (they bred us early and often), so that tax refund, about how much do you think I have coming? lol!

Could Granny get a new pair of Sunday shoes?

You've made me reconsider, CSIfan.

I'd do it like Tron from Chappelle's Show, when black people got reparations. Become the world's richest man from a "hot hand on a dice game!" (don't tell Lord Rotshchild, though... )

But you're right that the barbaric nature of it all would still be there. So, I have another idea...

Eliminate discrimination, white privilege, and white supremacy from ALL aspects of American society, by force if need be. Hell, slavery was enforced by and large by force, so why not?

Oh geeeze. Another 'free money' thread.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Did you know that when you apply to adopt a child, you are disqualified if you have been an abused child?

Where on earth did you get that from? There is no way you can make a blanket statement like that. That's wrong.

Try to imagine ...

Listen up. Slavery in America ended 150 years ago. There are no children or grandchildren of slaves running around. None.

Originally posted by truthseeka
... white people assume that black people who want reparations just want free money from the government.

Yep. I definately do.

But, America STILL stands out as the country with the most barbaric slave history.

Wrong. Haven't read up on the Barbary pirates, eh? Or the mass crucifiction of slaves in Rome? Slaves forced to fight to the death in Rome and Greece? Ship Galley Slaves who rowed and rowed ... and sunk with the ships. The slaves STILL in Africa and the Middle East and their plights today? The women and children held in S.E. Asia today in sex slavery - dozens upon dozens of clients each day, diseases, preganancies, no medical care, beatings, no hope - full and complete slavery.

Tens of thousands of years of human slave history and you say the couple of hundred years of slavery in America was 'the most barbaric'??

What drama! Oh please!

Get used to this talking head, CSIfan. But, she pretty much says the same things over and over, so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh geeeze. Another 'free money' thread.

I love being right.

Listen up. Slavery in America ended 150 years ago. There are no children or grandchildren of slaves running around. None.

I'm sure there are NO lingering psychological ramifications from this, no?

Wrong. Haven't read up on the Barbary pirates, eh? Or the mass crucifiction of slaves in Rome? Slaves forced to fight to the death in Rome and Greece? Ship Galley Slaves who rowed and rowed ... and sunk with the ships. The slaves STILL in Africa and the Middle East and their plights today? The women and children held in S.E. Asia today in sex slavery - dozens upon dozens of clients each day, diseases, preganancies, no medical care, beatings, no hope - full and complete slavery.

Tens of thousands of years of human slave history and you say the couple of hundred years of slavery in America was 'the most barbaric'??

Yes, because it's true. I could give a GOT damn if you don't think so. We are able to see Amerikkka, the ugly, nevertheless.

I don't get threads like these. People causing a ruckus over things that they do not know the half of. Research slavery, all of it...I mean all of it. Then you will understand where I come from. Where did slavery originate? Africa between African Tribes. They traded people for spices and power. They kidnapped and brutalized their own people to make a point. Where did "White"(in quotations because the slave traders were not all white and the slaves were not all black) slave traders get their slaves? From tribesmen in Africa who sold them for guns and drugs. These slave traders black and white would go to Africa for slaves because it was easy. These people in Africa were barbaric, kidnapping, stealing, raping...their own people for power and wealth. If that is not an atrocity, than what is. The same stuff still goes on today. There were white slaves, but they were in Jamaica, and the islands. There was no discrimination as to whom was a slave. It just so happens that slaves in America were mostly African due to Africans so readily betraying their own people. They are equally at fault, not me. I didn't do it, nor did my ancestors, I'm clean...no slave background here. 3rd gen French/Canadian and 5th Gen German.... I am not to blame, nor is my father. Think before you speak...it's what will keep us all alive and well.

DDay, I hear you loud and clear. You were hurt by it too...not suffering, but just watching, knowing.

You explain so well, the ghosts...I got teary reading your response, you hit it right on the head! And you're right about the rawness, and the telling, keeping it alive.

It can't go away, ever.

That lighthearted attitude, like real FREEDOM here in the USA, truly, not feigned, I long for that feeling. Of course, I could fake it. As a matter, I think many of us do...

Okay, we need to agree on the most important thing about this discussion:

Anything that happened in Africa or Rome, for that matter, is not relevant here.

As I explained in the original post, I was raised in NYC so this is about America only.

This is about what was allowed to happen on American soil.

Lets stay on track!

quote: Originally posted by CSIfan
Did you know that when you apply to adopt a child, you are disqualified if you have been an abused child?

100% Wrong..

My sister suffered abuse from the time she was 4 until leaving home at 18..

I escaped it by being raised by my Granny...

She has just adopted her grandchildren and though it was a lond drawn out process, the fact she was abused never entered into the equation...

So it appears the "talking head" was correct after all...
(Sorry FF, could not resist exemplifying the ignorant)

Semper

The "talking head" was, and is, correct. Slavery is gone, has been for over a century and a half. The victims are all dead and gone. Slowly, but surely, the legacy of slavery is dying, such as Jim Crow laws. To deny this is to deny the very real progress that has occured since the well deserved demise of slavery in America.

However gone slavery may be gone in America, it is still all to prevelant in other parts of the world. So to say that white America holds some sort of monopoly on the cruelty of slavery is to see only a limited scope of the true horror of slavery.

Oops, posted too soon.

Slavery has at points in history hit every single race on the face of the planet. Before you give America top billing, check out the historical record first. Slavery in America was wrong, there is no denying that, I won't even try. However, I would suggest that you save some concern and pity for those that are being held in forced servitude even now in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.

FF. Sorry. That was too wrong not to use. If I offended, you've my apologies.

[edit on 29-3-2007 by seagull]

CSI, I understand (as well as I can) your points about how painful slavery was for your ancestors. I'm afraid where I don't (or perhaps can't?) understand is why you carry pain and shame for something you didn't experience yourself. But I will take your word for it that you feel these things. I'm sorry you feel so bad.

But take hope. Being a child molestation, rape and cancer survivor myself, and no longer carrying the pain and shame of any of that, please know that you don't have to carry pain and shame around with you.

Originally posted by CSIfan
At 5 yrs old, in NYC, I was getting ready to visit Southern relatives...my Mother warned me not to say anything that would make a White Person angry, what could happen to me down south!

My mother told me that black people were dirty. She told me not to trust them and not to touch them or I'd get dirty. I guess the difference is that at some point, I decided she was wrong. And I cast aside the lies she told me and learned to make judgments about people, not for the color of their skin, but by who they are.

It sounds like your formative ideas about white people came, not from white people, but from your mother.

Try to see how a woman could love a man who was set up by a master to be her mate?

Arranged marriages are still practiced in many cultures.

Lynchings, mental and physical, continue...

Physical lynchings continue? Where?

The "other children", the children of the Master...this is scary...The generations who were descended from "The Master", they were raised by him, and all his hatred, torture, rapes...the sickness of the Master...a man who could buy and sell human beings...kill at will…

Who are you talking about here? Who are these "children of the Master"? Who specifically?

Originally posted by CSIfan
So, this is why I think we are owed reparations, which will certainly be mostly spent on much needed therapy (at least in my case).

I hope you can get some therapy if you feel you need it. Do you have insurance? Because many insuurance plans pay for therapy.

Can a Country like America allow policies that drive people insane?

Absolutely! America still allows policies that drive people insane. I'm sure if you 'travel' around ATS a while, you'll come across many American policies that drive all sorts of people nutso.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Anything that happened in Africa or Rome, for that matter, is not relevant here.

One thing that I notice in race discussions is that we aren't "permitted" to bring up other instances of the subject matter to add perspective to the discussion.

Whatever we're talking about, it helps to see the big picture and add perspective to bring in other comparative and relevant points of view. But in these race threads, I notice a stringent lack of willingness to expand the discussion to see the larger picture. It is desired that we focus on a specific subject as if it's closed off from the rest of the world and doesn't have its place in a larger picture.

We're told not to bring class into race discussions, even though it's relevant. We're told not to bring minority privilege into discussions about white privilege and not to talk about how Africans enslaved their own people when we're talking about how Americans enslaved people. Why not? It gives a discussion perspective.

I don't think a subject can be accurately explored without looking at the "other side" or the "bigger picture".

Think of it this way. If you're standing in a small circle with some other people and all of a sudden, an elephant is popped right into the center, filling up the space, and all you can see is it's butt crack and its tail. Now, someone is going to ask you to accurately describe what you see...

Your description is going to be very different than the person's who was standing right in front of the eye.

However, if you all took a step back to get perspective, and walked around the beast and explored the thing from all angles, you'd have a much better and more accurate description of the thing. Then you'd all be on the same page and could talk more interactively about it.

But if one person insists that an elephant looks like a big vertical crack with a tail swishing back and forth across it, and that's ALL an elephant is... then we can't discuss the whole thing or what the other people saw.

Originally posted by semperfortis
My sister suffered abuse from the time she was 4 until leaving home at 18... She has just adopted her grandchildren and though it was a lond drawn out process, the fact she was abused never entered into the equation...

So sorry, I should have written that when a formerly abused person attempts to adopt, children's services agencies are very cautious and the result is a "long drawn out process" because of the fear of the recurring cycle, as referred to by Goldman, Salus, Wolcott, Kennedy in "A Coordinated Response to Child Abuse and Neglect: The Foundation for Practice
User Manual Series (2003)"

Parental Histories and the Cycle of Abuse

A parent's childhood history plays a large part in how he or she may behave as a parent. Individuals with poor parental role models or those who did not have their own needs met may find it very difficult to meet the needs of their children.

While the estimated number varies, child maltreatment literature commonly supports the finding that some maltreating parents or caregivers were victims of abuse and neglect themselves as children.23 One review of the relevant research suggested that about one-third of all individuals who were maltreated will subject their children to maltreatment.24 Children who either experienced maltreatment or witnessed violence between their parents or caregivers may learn violent behavior and may also learn to justify violent behavior as appropriate.25

An incorrect conclusion from this finding, however, is that a maltreated child will always grow up to become a maltreating parent. There are individuals who have not been abused as children who become abusive, as well as individuals who have been abused as children and do not subsequently abuse their own children. In the research review noted above, approximately two-thirds of all individuals who were maltreated did not subject their children to abuse or neglect.26

It is not known why some parents or caregivers who were maltreated as children abuse or neglect their own children and others with a similar history do not.27 While every individual is responsible for his or her actions, research suggests the presence of emotionally supportive relationships may help lessen the risk of the intergenerational cycle of abuse.28"

A Coordinated Response to Child Abuse and Neglect: The Foundation for Practice- Chapter Five: What Factors Contribute to Child Abuse and Neglect?

Originally posted by truthseeka
she pretty much says the same things over and over,

And you don't?? :shk:

Originally posted by CSIfan
when a formerly abused person attempts to adopt, children's services agencies are very cautious and the result is a "long drawn out process" ....

Again ... not true.

You are making blanket statements that simply are not true.

Every adoption is a unique situation. Every agency and every social worker involved in adoption treat each adoption individually. To make a blanket statement such as you have ... is dead wrong.

I know people who have adopted and who are abuse - survivors. None of them ever had a 'long drawn out process' due to it. I know people who have adopted and who have mental health issues in their respective families. No 'long drawn out process' for that either.

When we went through our adoption process NO ONE ASKED anything about abuse in our backgrounds. It wasn't even an issue. It wasn't an issue for any of my friends who have adopted - and that's close to 10 couples - black, white, hispanic, and asian races involved.

Also - Slavery in America, which ended more than 150 years ago, has nothing to do with adoption today. Nothing.



[edit on 3/29/2007 by FlyersFan]

BH,

You have brought out a clear and concise example of the phenomenon that is occurring on those other threads...

The exclusion of anything that distracts from the personal opinion of certain posters....

I was raised in West Virgina...
My family's history goes back many generations in that area...

If I limited the discussion and refused to allow or consider any view other than I may be of Melungeon heritage, then i would force you to only discuss my particular mixed racial heritage and ignore every single pertinent perspective involving this discussion....

Yet how easy to simply say, "You are part of the "Dominant Culture" so of course you feel that way... Thereby dismissing anything you may contribute and so reinforcing my own prejudice...

Really that is what the limits are set for. To reinforce the prejudice of certain posters. Like a house of cards, if you allow too much of the truth in, it will collapse under it's own weight...

Semper

Originally posted by CSIfan
Okay, we need to agree on the most important thing about this discussion:

Anything that happened in Africa or Rome, for that matter, is not relevant here.

As I explained in the original post, I was raised in NYC so this is about America only.

This is about what was allowed to happen on American soil.

Lets stay on track!

Why is that the most important thing about this discussion? Why is that the track that we need to stay on?

Wouldn't the most important part of this discussion and the appropriate track to stay on be "The Lasting Effects of Slavery?"

Why is it irrelevant to speak of what happend in other parts of the world? Without the existing slave trade in Africa, there never would have been African slaves in America in the first place.

What did the US government allow to happen on American soil? History of Slavery in North America
You can see in this link (and others if you do a google or yahoo search) that slavery in North America dates back to 1619. 1619! Over 100 years before there was a US government. The tradition of slavery was imported to North America. It was the US government that DISallowed slavery on American Soil.

And since it is relevant, though not very supportive of your arguement, the tradition of slavery dates back THOUSANDS of years AND even in (OMG) Africa. Hmmm. Let me ponder this. Weren't the Hebrew people held as slaves in Egypt? Does that mean ALL black people owe a debt of reparation and/or apology to ALL Jewish people? No, no it doesn't.

Edit to add:
PS - I'm white and proud of it. And my friends are proud of me too - the whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, indians, muslims - all of them. Sick isn't it? How all these races can be proud of a white person????

[edit on 29-3-2007 by Mr No One]