The Lasting Effects of Slavery

FF,

Everyone has personal anecdotes, and there is never a guarantee that all child service agencies will conduct the proper investigation BEFORE placing children.

But we seem to be getting off track and selecting one tiny sentence to refute.

The research done by clinical people is always the best source, and I am sure they would welcome your inquiry regarding their outlook on the topic. Here is the reference again:

Goldman, Salus, Wolcott, Kennedy, "A Coordinated Response to Child Abuse and Neglect: The Foundation for Practice User Manual Series (2003)"

Very eloquently said. A very nice post indeed.
I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

I don't pretend to truly understand how you feel. I am a white male. Both sets of my grandparents came over from Italy. One set actually changed their last name due to the "racism" against Italians. Nowadays, if your name ends in a vowel, and you look Italian, everyone assumes that you're Tony Soprano.

But it's not the same, and I know that. Again, nice job.

Stay cool.
lombozo

I don't want to stray too far, but i can see a pattern developing here...a glaring pattern that permeates our society...

There's a kind of SPIN GAME going on here.

We Americans have a knack for blaming the victim:

Some Facts:

Not too many Iraqis officially involved with the terrorist actions of 9/11 (but hundreds of thousands have been killed by Bush Regime)

No kids smuggling drugs into USA, only big shots with resources (but millions of American kids are doing long jail sentences)

Bush Regime makes torture legal (but Troops are charged and must go to jail for torture)

Illegal Guns killing Americans (don't lock up the manufacturers, we lock up the kids who get caught with get the guns)

Cigarettes are hazardous to our health and to the environment (but don't bother the manufacturers with anything, not even lawsuits)

American Youth, go to College and get a degree (when Visa holders get those jobs, you'll be labeled lazy)

Who is getting away with Lottery money that should fund education in NYS? (what's wrong with these kids that they can't appreciate being taught in the hallways and bathrooms instead of classrooms?)

If you want to secure American Borders (you are anti-immigrant)


I'm sure there are more than I can think up here...HEY! is someone putting something in our water, or our air, that makes AMERICANS BLAME THE VICTIM?

The collective reasoning is off. Any ideas on what could be the cause?

C'mon, help me here...does anyone else see it?







[edit on 29-3-2007 by CSIfan]

Lombozo,

Thank you so much!

Oh, but to just know where your parents are from! To be able to identify with "somewhere", that must be great for you.

THAT IS A BLESSING!

I grew up learning about Italy and Italian culture from the TV, lol! Later on, I had Italian friends.

I love the food, the music, the language and the little ethnic eccentricities.

I don't like the ones that the Hollywood boys created about my people, though, just like you don't like the "gangster image" they created and applied to the group.

Maybe Hollywood is out of control?

Originally posted by CSIfan
I don't want to stray too far, but i can see a pattern developing here...
...
AMERICANS BLAME THE VICTIM?

Who is the victim?

And would you mind answering the questions in my post? Thank you.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Lynchings, mental and physical, continue...

Physical lynchings continue? Where?

The "other children", the children of the Master...this is scary...The generations who were descended from "The Master", they were raised by him, and all his hatred, torture, rapes...the sickness of the Master...a man who could buy and sell human beings...kill at will…

Who are you talking about here?

Who are these "children of the Master"? Who specifically?

Do you have insurance? Because many insurance plans pay for therapy.

Benevolent,

Thank you for your comments! Sorry I didn't respond sooner...

VICTIM - a victim is always the least likely person in control of a very bad situation; a multifaceted situation where usually, only one aspect is examined, the aspect most important to the "powers that be" who are truly in control.

Our own personal convictions help us to find the victim when, and if, all the facts are laid out in front of us. That is, if we want to see the truth. Your "Tillman quote" says it all.

LYNCHINGS - are happening quite regularly, here in NYC, they are conducted by the Police. No trials, just executions.

Yes, I have insurance, but limited visits for mental health services. I would need a specialist, which I think may be hard to find, because first the illness has to be acknowledged (the nature of the illness)...lol, maybe the diagnosis has not been recorded (denial)! Or, could it be PTSD?

Let me know if I answered everything, I'm tired and must attend a meeting.

In every aspect of the world. I mean look at all the White's living in Africa. This must be because of slavery ... It must be slavery that has held slaves back in 21st century ... When we look back and see a black man that ran for president ... and didn't win ... It must have been because his parents were in slavery. Or his uncle's or Cousins ... were in Slavery ... Must have been the reason !

Hi, CSIfan!

Welcome to the board. I am certainly glad that you are here. I also thank you for bringing up this very important topic for us all to discuss. I believe that we have to stop with beating around the bush and focus on the topic as it is in order to make things better in society.

I would like to address two points that you spoke about:

1)The notion of "pain". I think in all the discussions about slavery, the "pain" of it all is rarely conversed about because people are too caught up with the notion of Black people "crying and screaming" about race or "asking for a handout". If people got past these two deflecting points and discussed the residual effects of slavery, then there might be a meeting of the minds.

Forget about slavery in other parts of the world. Let's focus on slavery in America because it has affected us deeply as citizens of the United States through social practices, laws, social norms and ettiquette. And, as much as others can say that it was in the past, we need to revisit history as a way to discussing why we are the way we are in the present society.

In focusing about the pain, it is important to note that as a Black person who has actually seen the auction block her ancestors were sold upon, this topic brings a lot of sadness in noting the struggles that my relatives have endured in the face of such hardship. And it pains me that it is hard for some American citizens to recognize that a lot of us have deep emotions about this topic because it has affected us directly through our heritage and family histories.

Others can say that it happened "long ago", but for a lot of us talking about slavery is dealing with our collective and individual pasts. Not only that, dealing with this issue also helps make sense of the present as well.


2)I also wanted to address this point you made about "victims":

Originally quoted by CSIfan

I'm sure there are more than I can think up here...HEY! is someone putting something in our water, or our air, that makes AMERICANS BLAME THE VICTIM?

The collective reasoning is off. Any ideas on what could be the cause?

C'mon, help me here...does anyone else see it?

I think that the "blame the victim" trend that is happening in society is an attempt by some to avoid connecting with people who suffer. America during this day and age has a problem with empathy, especially when the sufferers are of color. Instead of indentifying with those who have experienced hardships in society, anger and ridicule is implemented instead.

It's rather sad and I have more to say on this later.

But, I wanted to tell you again that I thank you for this topic. And please continue to post your eloquent remarks for us all to read.

Ceci



[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by CSIfan
VICTIM - a victim is always the least likely person in control of a very bad situation;

I know what a victim is. I'm asking who the victim is. You said people here are "blaming the victim". I'm asking WHO, in this situation, victim is...

And thank you for your other answers.

BH,

The "children of the Master" are children who have been raised by someone who commits cruel atrocities against humanity. Their natural way of life is to exploit others, incur pain and humiliation, even death, because they see what their parents have done. It's part of them, it's ingrained.

Sometimes they can get help/therapy too, and sometimes they remain cruel, feeling in control of other's lives.

An example of what "the children of the Master" is capable of can be seen in Iraq, and also on the floor of Congress... really wealthy people arguing why an American citizen should not be paid at least $7.25 per hour for their work; can you imagine that? It's obscene!

Originally posted by CSIfan
I want to hear how you feel about this.

You want to think of shame? Think about the fact that the physically superior slaves who could withstand the passage, paradoxically, could not find the strength to run away or die.

At least not our ancestors. You know, the ones who stayed until slavery was abolished?

I'm asking who the victim is. You said people here are "blaming the victim". I'm asking WHO, in this situation, victim is...

Who is the victim that is being blamed?

That was an eloquent and interesting post CSIfan and I'm happy to admit that it made me think hard and question my instincts on the subject. However, although you made your points with great thought and sensibility I cannot escape the fact that I remain deeply troubled by your post and the underlying causes for the injustices and pain that you clearly genuinely feel.

As a white male living in middle class comfort in Southern England I suppose that it is easy to question my qualification to speak on this subject but on that basis we would only ever be aware of one perspective which cannot be healthy and I still find myself uncomfortable with exactly why a guilt culture should exist in the USA with regard to slavery, none of which is to suggest for a moment that slavery in the USA was anything other than an abomination or that the part played by British merchants was remotely defensible.

Slavery in the USA no longer exists, (my apologies for stating the bleeding obvious), and it has not done so for at least two or three generations and yet your post suggests that somehow you feel the ramifications of that period resonating through the generations in some very personal way to the extent indeed that you feel the need for therapy to help you deal with it and I have to say that I do not understand that.

In Britain there are many of us that recognise a feeling of great injustice with regard to the position and status of the aristocracy in our community. Some Americans I work with are constantly surprised that even into the twenty first century we were prepared to consign a significant element of our process of democracy to a group of individuals who held power solely due to an accident of birth and, of course, we still "enjoy" a head of state who holds that position simply through inheritance and with no regard whatever to her qualifications or beliefs. The continuing influence of the class system in Britain angers me intensely but I do not feel the need for psychological assistance to help me come to terms with that situation and frankly I would be pretty disturbed if I did.

You may argue that there is a big difference between an unjust class system and slavery and you are probably justified in doing so although in reality the only difference is that of timescale. The life of the under classes in Britain in the middle ages was slavery by another name but there is a big difference between injustice practised one thousand years ago and that of just two hundred years ago even if the shadow of both systems still lies across our societies.

But to be honest I am just skirting around the real point of my post because I know I am going to be criticised for what has to be said. I really do not want to personalise this because I don't know you at all and I have no desire to be perceived as making an accusation which I cannot substantiate at a personal level but we cannot avoid the inescapable issue which lies at the heart of the slavery debate, which is racism and racial prejudice.

American slaves were, almost without exception, black and their masters white and so today, no matter how hard we try to ignore history the divide between master and slave stares us in the face every day whether we care to admit it or not .

You made an interesting comment in one reply when you said,

"Oh, but to just know where your parents are from! To be able to identify with "somewhere", that must be great for you."

...and I find myself seriously troubled by that statement. Do you not know where your parents are from, or even grandparents? As FlyersFan has already said it is just about inconceivable that either of those generations were American slaves whatever their ancestors' backgrounds were. I know where my parents are from and I know much about their parents but quite frankly I know little about generations prior to that other than that they were generally working class and laboured hard for pretty poor reward and some were "in service" to wealthier and more privileged families. That is a long way removed from slavery but it is a long way removed from my life and lifestyle as well.

I don't doubt that you have suffered racial prejudice throughout your life, you confirmed this in your comments about your trip to the South and I have witnessed such prejudice in Britain and the USA as well as many other countries and between various ethnic groups. I am under no illusions that it continues today and I am frequently ashamed of my fellow white middle class compatriots and there ignorant bigotry.

But, I find it impossible to believe that individuals today are suffering in any material sense from the shadow of slavery in the USA any more than I suffer from the fact that my ancestors toiled in fields for the benefit of a Baron in a castle somewhere. This is a very different situation to that of a Jewish family from Europe who still personally recall their property being taken from them and their families butchered or, with such irony, Palestinians who have seen their homes bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlements in Israel. However, I fully understand that black people and others who can be easily physically categorised do suffer every day from mindless prejudice but we have to distinguish between that and the legacy of crimes committed hundreds of years ago.

I believe that the payment of reparations for the descendants of slaves would be a desperately misguided step. Where will the line be drawn? Are all black Americans to be compensated or just those who are fortunate enough to be able to prove their ancestry? Who will pay? The wealthy descendants of the masters or all citizens, including even those who have slave backgrounds themselves but have achieved prosperity, and what about the African slave traders themselves and their descendants, are they not guilty too? Should the Australian descendants of transported criminals be compensated by Britain or should I seek compensation from the Danes for the rape and pillaging of my ancestors by the Vikings? Where will it end?

If you need therapy I hope that you receive it. If you are discriminated against because of your colour then I hope that you live long enough to live in a society free from such ignorance but to place the blame for your personal troubles on those who are not personally responsible is in itself unjust and can only perpetuate the problem.

[edit on 29-3-2007 by timeless test]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by CSIfan
I want to hear how you feel about this.

You want to think of shame? Think about the fact that the physically superior slaves who could withstand the passage, paradoxically, could not find the strength to run away or die.

At least not our ancestors. You know, the ones who stayed until slavery was abolished?

Not exactly true.

Slaves ran away quite often. Why do you think they passed the Fugitive Slave Act? Hell, slaves would even kill their masters in an attempt to escape slavery. Then, you have slave rebellion.

And someone said they were happy being slaves...

I have listened to many of these interviews with actual slaves, not young people over a hundred years removed from the reality of slavery. I'm going to take their word for it if you don't mind. I'm not saying all slaves were happy or treated well. I'm saying many were.

You want to really get in touch with your ancestors? Listen to these interviews. I have for hours.
Listen to the Voices of Slavery

Interviews with Slaves

Charity Anderson

I kin remember de days when I was one of de house servants. Dere was six of us in de ol' marster's house, me, Sarai, Lou, Hester, Jerry and Joe. Us didn't know nothin' but good times den. My job was lookin' a'ter de corner table whar nothin' but de desserts sat. Jo and Jerry were de table boys, and dey ne'ber touched nothin' wid dere hans', dey used de waiter to pass things wid. My! dem was good ol' days.

"My old Marster was a good man, he treated all his slaves kind, and took care of dem, he wanted to leave dem hisn chillun. It sho' was hard for us older uns to keep de little cullered chillun out ob de dinin' room whar ol marster ate, cause when dey would slip in and stan' by his cheer, when he finished eatin' he would fix a plate and gib dem and dey would set on de hearth and eat.

Temple Herndon Durham

Freedom is all right, but de 'n-word's was better off befo' surrender, kaze den dey was looked after an' dey didn' get in no trouble fightin' an' killin' like dey do dese days. If a 'n-word' cut up an' got sassy in slavery times, his Ole Marse give him a good whippin' an' he went way back an' set down an' 'haved hese'f. If he was sick, Marse an' Mistis looked after him, an' if he needed store medicine, it was bought an' give to him; he didn' have to pay nothin'. Dey didn' even have to think 'bout clothes nor nothin' like dat, dey was wove an' made an' give to dem. Maybe everybody's Marse and Mistis wuzn' good as Marse George and Mis' Betsy, but dey was de same as a mammy an' pappy to us 'n-word's."

It is fine to listen to the recorded stories of slaves. In fact, it is the first step in trying to identify and connect with the victims of a harsh, governmental system that was state-sponsored. However, I must still note that even this does not attempt to deal with the residual effects that slavery has on society today.

A lot of others don't even get to that first step. They would rather vent their anger and frustration instead of trying to understand why discussing slavery is timely.

I know that some of us in American society cannot "see" it, but slavery still affects us in the manner of how we act towards one another, how policies are conducted as well as the stereotypes of persons of color. Slavery may be over, but unfortunately the descendants of slaves and slave masters are the tie we have left to discuss this emotional and painful issue.

I think what needs to be understood is the fact that slavery is an issue still in the spotlight today. If we don't deal with our collective past, then the same practices will occur in the future by those who "blame the victim", participate in "anti-victimist" language and continue to misunderstand the repercussions that such events had on our lives.

This aspect of history can't be buried under obfuscation and deflection.

And the main problem here is that people have problems with the nature of "collectivity". Individuality is still stressed. And, some Americans have no concept of community--especially when it spans for generations.

The pain and hardship of suffering that the slaves went through in America must be discussed. And since these stories have had a very specific effect on African-Americans, there needs to be a consistent effort to stop with the linguistic gymnastics and get to the point.

No one is happy when they are crushed under the heel of human trafficking (yes, slavery is human trafficking). Yet, the stereotype exists because the South predicated its wealth and its obliviousness of suffering on the backs of "happy slaves". As long as slaves were perceived as "happy", no one needs to identify with their suffering. And that same belief is repeated today in order to distance one's self from the horrific nature of slavery and its effects now.

And that is precisely the problem here.

1)There needs to be an admittance that slavery occurred

2)People cannot shy away from the pain that it has caused to generations of Americans, not even to entertain slaves might be "happy" under such a terrible, legalized, state-sponsored system.

3)And the experiences of slaves must not be disrespected because (as a Black American), it is an achievement that our ancestors survived harsh treatment in order to endure. And for their descendants, their strength collectively allowed them survive the legacy of Jim Crow in order to fight for a better life in America.

It is sad when people try to minimize this by saying it should not be talked about.

And it is even worse when others try to "play dumb" to shield themselves from the obvious that occurred in the past, let alone make light of it. This is especially detrimental when trying to make sense of these events in the present.



[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Ceci,

Thank you for your insightful comments; you write like an editorialist!
You appear well informed, and extremely well educated.

I agree wholeheartedly with the points you made, and I look forward to hearing more from you on this topic.

Thanks also for the warm welcome! I feel at home now...

Phoenix,

Pleased to meet you!

Many ran away...and many did what they had to do, and could do, in order to promise their descendants that precious gift of life, and a future that a slave could only dream of.

That staying took a lot of courage, I think.

Hope I answered your question.

Thank you for the opportunity!

BH,

The victim is me. The experience is mine; I have the right to feel this way, even if others say I should forget.

I am the victim!

I hurt, and the pain is unbearable. So much so that I was moved to post this thread.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, that answers my question. Thank you so much for your honesty! It's very refreshing! And you do have every right to feel however you feel. I hope you can get some help to overcome your pain. I know how terrible being out of control can feel. I sincerely hope you can work through your pain.