U.S. Sponsoring Kurdish Guerilla Attacks Inside Iran

Supporting resistance groups inside other countries happens all the time, not saying its right or wrong, but its all about common interest. We supported the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan in the 80's, because it was in the best interest of our policy of containment at the time. Interests change over time and now we fight some of the same men who we supported, thats how politics works, right or wrong, its the reality, deal with it.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Supporting resistance groups inside other countries happens all the time, not saying its right or wrong, but its all about common interest. We supported the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan in the 80's, because it was in the best interest of our policy of containment at the time. Interests change over time and now we fight some of the same men who we supported, thats how politics works, right or wrong, its the reality, deal with it.

So;

If for example, Iran is supporting resistance groups in Iraq, that is called Terrorism;

But in the case of the United States supporting resistance groups in Iran that is called, errrrrrr, ehmmmm - policy of containment?

Interesting...

[edit on 28/3/07 by Souljah]

Originally posted by ludaChris
Supporting resistance groups inside other countries happens all the time, not saying its right or wrong, but its all about common interest. We supported the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan in the 80's, because it was in the best interest of our policy of containment at the time. Interests change over time and now we fight some of the same men who we supported, thats how politics works, right or wrong, its the reality, deal with it.

WTF? Deal with it? No, dude, we wont and I am an American! We cannot go around the world pushing other countries to do our will, and turn around and scream terrorism when they do the same. Double standard, you cant have it both ways. I am so sick of the hypocrisy of my country. When will people wake up and realize that the ACTIONS by our government aren't the freedom protecting ones we make them out to be.

The US is playing both sides when it come to the Kurds.

Turkey is preparing to attack the Kurds and the US is trying to prevent it with conflicting reports that they have given the green light for the attack: Turkey Getting Ready for Spring Offensive vs Kurds in Northern Iraq - US Plays Both Sides.

The US double standards are in play once again.
.

How funny it is that people call Souljah a propaganda-bot and place him on their ignorelist. I mean a propaganda-bot would have to be in line with the mass-media "message", because that's the true propaganda going on.
You can't call someone who is NOT in Line with the Mass-Media position a propaganda bot. LOL!
What's so difficult about "detecting" propaganda? Ah yes I forgot, it's our education and carreer system which prevents people from analyzing and thinking critically.

Odium is doing some awesome contributions here. Good Knowledge, good replies. Very impressive indeed.
And I love to see americans who are awake. Welcome to the real world Logan!
There still is hope.

I also like how someone points out that Switzerland is more democratic than America. Ahahahaah so true. 2-Party System = Rofl.
I think Switzerland should attack America, although wait.. ahh yes damn.. All the privatized National Banks are linked together right in my city. :S

But we have a Navy! We have like 1 Patrolboat in some lake. I think we could do an attack, if it wasnt prevented by the powerful. And we would also need permission from Italy to pass through and reach the Ocean with our powerful Swiss Navy Armada.

And in regards of the topic the important has been said: No matter what games are being played with the "Iran" thing right now. It is very probable that Iran has captured the UK Soldiers to get a voice.
If the UK and America puts their greasy Elite-Fingers into Mid-East conflicts and influencing the outcome by financing war and "Guerilla" Attacks.
No wonder Iran is seeking a way to get a voice.
How else would you want to try breaching through the Mass-Media Propaganda flow of information?

The US is performing terrorism since 50 Years, and now they use the same word to achieve increased control and strip the people of their most basic rights.
And some people around here still don't know why this isn't OK.
How does that make some #ing sense?

And No: Even if it is reality, we won't get over it. You are the one who has to get over with because we will change this reality once and for all.
Say Hello to the new reality where honest people will be rewarded.
Say Hello to the times where efficiency, compassion and rationality is the foundation.

And finally here's a little history snippet for those who lack the knowledge about their own country;

US Wars and Operations from 1950-1999

Isn't that #ing impressive? The American Elite is doing a wonderful job at what they do.

Originally posted by Souljah
So;

If for example, Iran is supporting resistance groups in Iraq, that is called Terrorism;

But in the case of the United States supporting resistance groups in Iran that is called, errrrrrr, ehmmmm - policy of containment?

Interesting...

[edit on 28/3/07 by Souljah]

As I stated in my post, I wasnt advocating anything, or saying its right or wrong for anyone to do it. I was simply stating the reality, that it happens and right or wrong you and I are just going to have to deal with it. Just plain and simple reality, am I right or wrong?

Originally posted by LogansRun
WTF? Deal with it? No, dude, we wont and I am an American! We cannot go around the world pushing other countries to do our will, and turn around and scream terrorism when they do the same. Double standard, you cant have it both ways. I am so sick of the hypocrisy of my country. When will people wake up and realize that the ACTIONS by our government aren't the freedom protecting ones we make them out to be.

I am also an American, and as I just told Souljah, its the reality of the world we live in. Politics is all about interest, and if you have a common one with a certain country or group, then you have an ally, at least temporarily. I never said we should push other countries around, and I'm not advocating the support of such groups by anyone. But it is the reality of our times, how do you propose to change it?

Originally posted by Souljah

So;

If for example, Iran is supporting resistance groups in Iraq, that is called Terrorism;

But in the case of the United States supporting resistance groups in Iran that is called, errrrrrr, ehmmmm - policy of containment?

Interesting...

[edit on 28/3/07 by Souljah]

C'mon Souljah ... You've been spinning spins, and yarning yarns for so long that you seem to forget, or maybe even purposefully forget, that neither side is innocent in the face of national interest.

For all your attempts to paint black on the US, UK, and others, you never seem to be able to stop and look at what the other side is doing, as well.

There is no innocence in national interest. The dirtiest tricks win, and the winners write history.

I won't ever block you, as it is more fun to watch you try and paint your pictures and get folks all riled up. It's too bad, however, that intellectual effort can't be applied to something like a real peace effort. On the other hand, that, often, doesn't seem to fit in with what appears to be your modus operandi. It has often crossed my mind that it would be fun to know who pays who to get those kinds of opinions.

However, if I am wrong, please forgive me. No evil intent is implied or condoned in the writing of this message.

Originally posted by sigung86
C'mon Souljah ... You've been spinning spins, and yarning yarns for so long that you seem to forget, or maybe even purposefully forget, that neither side is innocent in the face of national interest.

I never forget that - I just want to show, how one side of the story is almost ALWAYS ignored, yet everybody is very good at pointing fingers at the Usual Suspects if you know what I mean. Meanwhile the Sharks quietly eat the small fishies in the sea.

For all your attempts to paint black on the US, UK, and others, you never seem to be able to stop and look at what the other side is doing, as well.

Why should I? I think there are plenty of people doing that already - somebody has to play the role of the real Patriot and defend the Republic against ALL enemies; foreign AND DOMESTIC.

There is no innocence in national interest. The dirtiest tricks win, and the winners write history.

Very, VERY True.

I won't ever block you, as it is more fun to watch you try and paint your pictures and get folks all riled up. It's too bad, however, that intellectual effort can't be applied to something like a real peace effort. On the other hand, that, often, doesn't seem to fit in with what appears to be your modus operandi. It has often crossed my mind that it would be fun to know who pays who to get those kinds of opinions.

Please do as you will.

And if I would really get payed for this "kinds of opinions" I would be a very rich dude right now and would actually not bother to debate with people on forum boards. My opinions are Mine - shaped what I have seen over the years I have lived on this planet; and I think you have your opinion as well. Just like everybody else. But I do not think we read the same books...

However, if I am wrong, please forgive me. No evil intent is implied or condoned in the writing of this message.

No harm done Sir.

We are here to debate and that is the beauty of it!

I'm in the mood of bumping this #.

It's important for ignorants to realize that Iran might have it's reasons to capture 15 UK Soldiers.

Don't let this thread disappear ;]

Ah, finally a thread where some intelligent people are able to put the idiotic hypocrites who have the nerves to call themselves a "patriot", in their place.

It's funny how they've almost all dissapeared. When they come up against facts like these, they just shutup and pretend they never read it. Oh how easy it must be to be in denial.

My hats off to Souljah, Odium, Untitled, Osram and LogansRun.
It's refreshing to see others on the forum who arent blinded by the mainstream media propaganda and actually HELP to enlightend the ignorant ones.

Although I don't entirely blame the quiet ones... sometimes you try, but it's pointless arguing against an overwhelming number of deniers.


[edit on 28/3/07 by Navieko]

Originally posted by ludaChris
I am also an American, and as I just told Souljah, its the reality of the world we live in. Politics is all about interest, and if you have a common one with a certain country or group, then you have an ally, at least temporarily. I never said we should push other countries around, and I'm not advocating the support of such groups by anyone. But it is the reality of our times, how do you propose to change it?

Well first of all, by changing that attitude!
It's exactly that kind of mass mindset that has allowed the reality of which we live in, to come/stay in this existance. All it takes is the most listened/watched nation in the world to change, and the rest follow suit. I'm sure the only reason many other nations follow the same political corruptions in the first place is because they need to, in order to survive.

What many people seem to forget is that it's the people that control the government, but right now it's the otherway around. Because of the brainwashing, propaganda from movies, news... anything mainstream; We are made to believe that what the governments do is normal -- and if you disagree, theres nothing you can do about it because they're in control.

Pure BS, we just need to wake the masses up. Do what we have to do to claim our control back. Doesn't neccessarily mean physical revolution against the governments, but the least we can do is not comply with their "rules". Just ignore them, they're nothing anyway. A tiny minority that is trying to control the rest...why let them?

Spread the word, in any form you can just as long as it makes people wake up. Create a chain reaction. Don't let them make you think it's impossible, because it's already begun. The more people who help now, the faster it will come.

WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP!

Damn Navieko you forgot to mention my Name!
You hurt my feelings real bad, you know! ;] Lol..

But yes, you are right. It is nice to see that more and more people are waking up. Especially if it is americans. I guess when someone effectively convinces an american about the truth, he could actually make a trophy:

"Unbrainwashed American = n+1" (No offense to americans)

I think the last time I was actively on ATS there were alot more sleepers.
It is becoming more and more pleasent to contribute. Because posting along with a majority of "sleepers" can be like talking to a wall.

Really nice to see some change indeed.

Originally posted by Navieko
Well first of all, by changing that attitude!
It's exactly that kind of mass mindset that has allowed the reality of which we live in, to come/stay in this existance. All it takes is the most listened/watched nation in the world to change, and the rest follow suit. I'm sure the only reason many other nations follow the same political corruptions in the first place is because they need to, in order to survive.

What many people seem to forget is that it's the people that control the government, but right now it's the otherway around. Because of the brainwashing, propaganda from movies, news... anything mainstream; We are made to believe that what the governments do is normal -- and if you disagree, theres nothing you can do about it because they're in control.

Pure BS, we just need to wake the masses up. Do what we have to do to claim our control back. Doesn't neccessarily mean physical revolution against the governments, but the least we can do is not comply with their "rules". Just ignore them, they're nothing anyway. A tiny minority that is trying to control the rest...why let them?

Spread the word, in any form you can just as long as it makes people wake up. Create a chain reaction. Don't let them make you think it's impossible, because it's already begun. The more people who help now, the faster it will come.

WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP!

Dont tell me how to think, or what kind of attitude to have. Intelligence is a dirty business, no one else will play by the rules and if you want to succeed in the intelligence racket the only thing you can do is play the dirtiest. You dont think Iran is in any way supporting the insurgency in Iraq? Pretty naive if you dont think its happening.
Iran supporting insurgents
Syria and Iran aiding Militants

I say if they # us, we # them, plain and simple. And this is only kid stuff compared to what can happen. War by proxy in my opinion. I think you need to wake up from your fantasy world where peace is possible, because as long as humans inhabit the earth it isnt. Even at times when the major powers of the world arent involved in a conflict, which is rare, there are smaller ethnic wars going on. We dont hear about it but rest assured, somewhere there are always little wars going on. Its the way its been, way it is, and way it always will be. Stop living a fantasy and wake up to the reality that we live in a cruel world.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Dont tell me how to think, or what kind of attitude to have. Intelligence is a dirty business, no one else will play by the rules and if you want to succeed in the intelligence racket the only thing you can do is play the dirtiest. You dont think Iran is in any way supporting the insurgency in Iraq? Pretty naive if you dont think its happening.
Iran supporting insurgents
Syria and Iran aiding Militants

I say if they # us, we # them, plain and simple. And this is only kid stuff compared to what can happen. War by proxy in my opinion. I think you need to wake up from your fantasy world where peace is possible, because as long as humans inhabit the earth it isnt. Even at times when the major powers of the world arent involved in a conflict, which is rare, there are smaller ethnic wars going on. We dont hear about it but rest assured, somewhere there are always little wars going on. Its the way its been, way it is, and way it always will be. Stop living a fantasy and wake up to the reality that we live in a cruel world.

You asked how we propose to change the world... I answered. But of course, it's much easier to believe it isn't possible. Just some fantasy. That way you don't need to do #, right?

I never stated, or even thought for a second that Iran didn't do anything wrong, or dirty. In fact that was one of my points. Iran, Iraq, and almost all nations today, play dirty. But thats because the bigger nations, the nations that hold power in this world; They're the ones that started/escalated this big mess. The others must follow, in order to survive.

Of course, as humans, there will always be corruption in some form. But that's not to say there cannot be much less. A better way. I think it is naive to say otherwise, and to ignore the possibility is selfish.

If you want to deal with our reality for what it is, and just forget about it, go ahead. But there is a rapidly growing number out there that simply will not let it go on. And there are even more that simply need to be waken up, in order to see the possibilities.

Time will tell whether or not we the people will succeed...we may very well fail. But we're sure as hell not going to just sit by and let it slide without a fight.

[edit on 28/3/07 by Navieko]

I never said we should push other countries around, and I'm not advocating the support of such groups by anyone. But it is the reality of our times, how do you propose to change it?

I found this very interesting. After all, isn't the alleged purpose of all of these endeavors to spread democracy? Isn't democracy where the country is run by the people for the people? And yet, according to this post, the people in the countries set on spreading democracy are unable to change or control the actions of their governments.

I think this was plain to see as soon as you saw Israeli soldiers training those Kurds. I knew they were there for a reason and it surely wasn't to train them to protect an airport.

I find it so wierd the same people who advocate Israel pouncing on the palestinians feel that these Kurds are OK when it comes to their violence in regards to their determination for independence from the Iraqis. The Turks will realize they are being double dealt because the Kurds will not do this without some sort of deal. Bush will get his war with Iran, the Kurds will gain their independence, and Israel will get its Oil pipeline from Mosul-->Haifa courtesy of the Kurds.


This garbage we are seeing has been in the works for years now. The Kurds have been training for this for a couple of years now via IDF training under cover of private contractors working out of Switzerland. Seymour Hersh wrote about this several years ago.

Plan B
As June 30th approaches, Israel looks to the Kurds.
by Seymour M. Hersh
June 28, 2004

In July, 2003, two months after President Bush declared victory in Iraq, the war, far from winding down, reached a critical point. Israel, which had been among the war’s most enthusiastic supporters, began warning the Administration that the American-led occupation would face a heightened insurgency—a campaign of bombings and assassinations—later that summer. Israeli intelligence assets in Iraq were reporting that the insurgents had the support of Iranian intelligence operatives and other foreign fighters, who were crossing the unprotected border between Iran and Iraq at will. The Israelis urged the United States to seal the nine-hundred-mile-long border, at whatever cost.

The New Yorker Magazine



So many people have made claims of Arab anti-semetism when it comes to Arab nations lodging complaints, but I tell you it has nothing to do with anti-semetism and everything to do with Israeli meddling in other ME countries. This is the source of many of our worlds woes right now.

From Page 2

In a series of interviews in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, officials told me that by the end of last year Israel had concluded that the Bush Administration would not be able to bring stability or democracy to Iraq, and that Israel needed other options. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government decided, I was told, to minimize the damage that the war was causing to Israel’s strategic position by expanding its long-standing relationship with Iraq’s Kurds and establishing a significant presence on the ground in the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan. Several officials depicted Sharon’s decision, which involves a heavy financial commitment, as a potentially reckless move that could create even more chaos and violence as the insurgency in Iraq continues to grow.

Israeli intelligence and military operatives are now quietly at work in Kurdistan, providing training for Kurdish commando units and, most important in Israel’s view, running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria. Israel feels particularly threatened by Iran, whose position in the region has been strengthened by the war. The Israeli operatives include members of the Mossad, Israel’s clandestine foreign-intelligence service, who work undercover in Kurdistan as businessmen and, in some cases, do not carry Israeli passports.

Asked to comment, Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said, “The story is simply untrue and the relevant governments know it’s untrue.” Kurdish officials declined to comment, as did a spokesman for the State Department.

However, a senior C.I.A. official acknowledged in an interview last week that the Israelis were indeed operating in Kurdistan. He told me that the Israelis felt that they had little choice: “They think they have to be there.” Asked whether the Israelis had sought approval from Washington, the official laughed and said, “Do you know anybody who can tell the Israelis what to do? They’re always going to do what is in their best interest.” The C.I.A. official added that the Israeli presence was widely known in the American intelligence community.

The Israeli decision to seek a bigger foothold in Kurdistan—characterized by the former Israeli intelligence officer as “Plan B”—has also raised tensions between Israel and Turkey. It has provoked bitter statements from Turkish politicians and, in a major regional shift, a new alliance among Iran, Syria, and Turkey, all of which have significant Kurdish minorities. In early June, Intel Brief, a privately circulated intelligence newsletter produced by Vincent Cannistraro, a retired C.I.A. counterterrorism chief, and Philip Giraldi, who served as the C.I.A.’s deputy chief of base in Istanbul in the late nineteen-eighties, said:

Originally posted by Navieko
You asked how we propose to change the world... I answered. But of course, it's much easier to believe it isn't possible. Just some fantasy. That way you don't need to do #, right?

I never stated, or even thought for a second that Iran didn't do anything wrong, or dirty. In fact that was one of my points. Iran, Iraq, and almost all nations today, play dirty. But thats because the bigger nations, the nations that hold power in this world; They're the ones that started/escalated this big mess. The others must follow, in order to survive.

Of course, as humans, there will always be corruption in some form. But that's not to say there cannot be much less. A better way. I think it is naive to say otherwise, and to ignore the possibility is selfish.

If you want to deal with our reality for what it is, and just forget about it, go ahead. But there is a rapidly growing number out there that simply will not let it go on. And there are even more that simply need to be waken up, in order to see the possibilities.

Time will tell whether or not we the people will succeed...we may very well fail. But we're sure as hell not going to just sit by and let it slide without a fight.

[edit on 28/3/07 by Navieko]

I am simply stating that realistically, nothing will ever change. It's reality!!! Theres no doubt in my mind that even if we stop playing "dirty" that no other countries would follow suite. If they can screw us, they will, plain and simple in my mind. Good luck on your endeavour.

Originally posted by ludaChris
As I stated in my post, I wasnt advocating anything, or saying its right or wrong for anyone to do it. I was simply stating the reality, that it happens and right or wrong you and I are just going to have to deal with it. Just plain and simple reality, am I right or wrong?

Forgive me - I missunderstood your post.

Yes I agree - it happens all the time, and there shall always be covert operations of this kind, usually executed by the powerful countries, since those weak ones do not have the money, the technology, the information, the connections, the logistics - well basicly they do not have anything. Yet you can not compare the intelligence force of United States and all that stands behind it to the same intelligence in Iran. Now that is kind of not on the same level. We all know who wins here.

And as you said, intelligence is a dirty business - you are correct! But who made it dirty? Who is the role model for this? I mean, if the biggest and most powerful nations can kidnap people, torture them, maybe even kill them during a severe interrogation and can get away with it, with basicly nobody saying a word; now what kind of message does that send to the people around the globe, to the governments?

So I ask you again;

Are covert operations supported by United States in Iran TERRORISM or not?

OMG more BS from Amy Goodman propagandist extraordinaire. I am willing to bet this will turn out the same as the lies in the story below did.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Read the last few pages of the thread, her own sources proved she was lying about those deaths