Tax Religion

Originally posted by RRconservative
I don't support taxing churches. But if it ever happens it sure would be nice for pastors and priests to endorse candidates from the pulpit!

In my experience, there are very few churches who DON'T do that already. It's a shame, in my opinion, what a POLITICAL tool the church has become.

But that's fodder for another thread...

Originally posted by RRconservative
I don't support taxing churches. But if it ever happens it sure would be nice for pastors and priests to endorse candidates from the pulpit!

have you ever been to a church in this country? they endorse candidates all the time, they endorse... force actually positions on issues.

Taxing the churches would open up that can of worms.

Be careful what you wish for!

the can has been open for millenia

I agree with the points that are made, but I just don't like the idea of the state getting involved in religion at all.

Originally posted by Johnmike
I agree with the points that are made, but I just don't like the idea of the state getting involved in religion at all.

Agreed, but if a religion is turning a profit off their congregation, then it is they who are getting involved in the state...not the other way around.

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by Johnmike
I agree with the points that are made, but I just don't like the idea of the state getting involved in religion at all.

Agreed, but if a religion is turning a profit off their congregation, then it is they who are getting involved in the state...not the other way around.

agreed. unless all profit made by these groups goes directly into charitable organizations, they shouldn't remain tax-exempt

i'm really surprised that there aren't more people on here voicing their distaste for the idea of taxing religion

or showing their support for the idea

What about the assets of churches? If I sell one of assets or take a return on one of my cash assets, I have to pay tax.

Yet the Church does not have to?

Why should I pay taxes to enable Churchs not to?

I do not want the state using my taxes to fund anything to do with religion?

They should pay tax just like everyone else.

And how did they aquire some of their assets?

Certainly the Church of England had slave planatation and got compensation from the British Government when slavery was abolished.

Yet they have tax advantages I am not entitled too.

This is wrong

As off topic a bit..................I would impose a tax on all religions to pay for the damage they have done over the last 200 plus years

free, just the last 200 years? well, i doubt they could pay that small fraction of damages off if you gave them a whole millenia.

These days churches operate like any other business with the exception that they parade the idea that it's all in the name of some superstitious belief, whatever it be, and yes many of them make much more profit then they would ever admit to. I pay taxes just to live in my home. Tax them and move on.

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
I do not want the state using my taxes to fund anything to do with religion?

That works out well...because they don't.

Non-profits generate "assets" through foundation work. Any government money they receive would probably be in the form of a grant...and it wouldn't be "to spread religion", it would be more along the lines of "to fund a domestic abuse shelter..."

As off topic a bit..................I would impose a tax on all religions to pay for the damage they have done over the last 200 plus years

Not off topic...but clearly grinding a personal axe you have with a specific church and not taking into account the big picture.

If the government is going to start assessing a "MORALITY TAX", I think that the "church's" portion would be a PITTANCE next to big business and the government itself.

As off topic a bit...what would YOU pay? If the IRS started taxing you on your past moral misjudgements? If you're in to accountability, surely you'd be willing to make your mistakes public record and pony up, yes?

Originally posted by laiguana
These days churches operate like any other business with the exception that they parade the idea that it's all in the name of some superstitious belief...

An interesting assertion.

Feel free to voice your church-bashing in one of the JILLION threads here on ATS dedicated to that very thing.

I pay taxes just to live in my home. Tax them and move on.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

I feel certain you fix lunches for the homeless in your home, give the elderly a space to make quilts to give to victims of domestic abuse, house AA meetings, offer childcare to single mothers...

Maybe you should apply to the IRS as a non-profit.

Originally posted by Essedarius
I feel certain you fix lunches for the homeless in your home, give the elderly a space to make quilts to give to victims of domestic abuse, house AA meetings, offer childcare to single mothers...

Maybe you should apply to the IRS as a non-profit.

the problem is that not all churches do that. some of them operate "services" but they are definitely not charitable. hell, some churches have coffee shops and gift shops

As far as I know many churches don't always make such services available, however they will take my money and bring traffic into my area every sunday morning and they take up space that could otherwise be used for commerce purposes. There could have been a real coffee shop in that spot, a coffee shop that pays its taxes.

And while I don't comfort criminals in my home, I do send monthly checks to charities of my choice. Ones that don't pretend to be non-profit for the purpose of tax evasion. They also don't find neccessary a fancy infrastructure that requires plenty of 'donations' to maintain.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by laiguana]

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by Freedom ERP
I do not want the state using my taxes to fund anything to do with religion?

That works out well...because they don't.

If a church get s tax break then that is clearing using my taxes to assist them as the Government has factored in the reduced or no tax from a church therefore my taxes are assisting a church, hence religion.

Non-profits generate "assets" through foundation work. Any government money they receive would probably be in the form of a grant...and it wouldn't be "to spread religion", it would be more along the lines of "to fund a domestic abuse shelter..."

There should be no state funding of any activity via a church/religion. There is always a message behind anything they do.

As off topic a bit..................I would impose a tax on all religions to pay for the damage they have done over the last 200 plus years

Not off topic...but clearly grinding a personal axe you have with a specific church and not taking into account the big picture.

No personal axe grinding here, just all church/religion. Strip them of their assets and charge the leaders with crimes against humantity

If the government is going to start assessing a "MORALITY TAX", I think that the "church's" portion would be a PITTANCE next to big business and the government itself.

As off topic a bit...what would YOU pay? If the IRS started taxing you on your past moral misjudgements? If you're in to accountability, surely you'd be willing to make your mistakes public record and pony up, yes?

I am not a religion and do not get tax advantages. Why should I own up?

people, don't forget that the current US executive branch has a huge fetish for faith-based initiatives being dunded by federal government. if they don't just get a pass on taxes, they get other peoples' money

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the problem is that not all churches do that. some of them operate "services" but they are definitely not charitable.

I can only speak for the churches I've attended in my life...which is A LOT. I have yet to attend one that does not do charitable work in the community.

Now you can question their MOTIVES for that work...I've seen plenty of churches where I feel like people use their charity work as an excuse to completely discard any sense of humility...but to say that churches don't do charitable work in the community is just not accurate.

hell, some churches have coffee shops and gift shops

The church is serving a community...why can't it be enjoyable? There are only two churches I've been to that had a full on espresso bar...one was run by the high school group, and all proceeds went to fund a trip they were taking to build houses in Mexico, and the other gave the proceeds to the Deacon fund...which is the "church" way of saying that it goes to a church member who may be having a problem paying rent this month.

Originally posted by laiguana
As far as I know many churches don't always make such services available...

Again...you're a self-proclaimed church hater, I've been going to church my whole life...I'm confident that my assessment is more accurate than yours.


SIDE NOTE:
Look, you guys have decided to HATE churches, that's cool. But don't just lie about them...as you well know there are plenty of legitimate reasons you can use to build a case against religion if you really want to do that.

I do send monthly checks to charities of my choice. Ones that don't pretend to be non-profit for the purpose of tax evasion.

You sure? If I use the same logic that you've used here then all I have to do is find ONE or TWO charities that have abused their non-profit status (gee, I wonder if I could do that), generalize those actions and apply them to EVERY non-profit in existence, then call you a SUCKER.

But I wouldn't do that. That wouldn't really be fair, would it?


I thought this was going to be a legitimate discussion…but I think we can save ATS some server space and move this conversation here.

Religion is part of a community. It's a community thing. The government has no place taking taxes from a community's church.

Originally posted by Johnmike
Religion is part of a community. It's a community thing. The government has no place taking taxes from a community's church.

religion isn't a part of my community, i'm an atheist in a secular country. these organizations make a PROFIT, they take in more money than they need to operate.

maybe you could flush out your argument a bit more

edit to add:
Essedarius, i've been going to churches my whole life as well, i just happened to stop about two years back.

[edit on 4/3/07 by madnessinmysoul]

I always look at a charity's reputation before I submit my check to them, though their integrity is not always a guarantee. Besides that, embezzlement is nothing new in religious organizations these days, it hardly ever make the news. Now if you are unable to locate any resources regarding this, and you want me to pull out a list of references that will likely occupy several hours of your time, just let me know.
Another critical issue is that charities are generally refrained from endorsing political candidates/agendas, an issue that is kept at a low profile in religious organizations.
I also never proclaimed being a 'church-hater' simply because I believe these politically motivated organizations should be taxed. By law, churches are exempt because they are not to interfere in the politics of the government and vice versa, however they are free to voice their stance on political issues. Though you might consider it splitting hairs, the truth of the matter is that religion is highly involved in U.S. politics, thus it should be taxed. It's very simple.

Oh and I must agree, I do not consider a church a part of my 'community', they do not serve me, except in the form of traffic congestion every Sunday morning till noon.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by laiguana]

Originally posted by laiguana
...embezzlement is nothing new in religious organizations these days...

It's nothing new in ANY organization these days.

Answer me this: which amount do you think is greater, taxes evaded by religous organizations or taxes evaded by big businees or wealthy individuals?

If your REAL concern is compensating for organizations who don't pay appropriate taxes, going after CHURCHES is silly...their piece of the pie is like piss in the ocean.

Now if you are unable to locate any resources regarding this...

I've never claimed that churches never abuse their non-profit status...I've simply stated that it's not fair for you to imply that they ALL abuse their non-profit status.

Another critical issue is that charities are generally refrained from endorsing political candidates/agendas, an issue that is kept at a low profile in religious organizations.

Any time people are gathered together to discuss moral issues, they will inevitably take a political stance. I've worked non-profit healthcare, foster and long term care...and for a big six accounting firm...they all discuss how things SHOULD BE, and they all end up with a unified political view.

Does the church take more action in the political venue than these other organizations? Absolutely. Which leads us to...

... the truth of the matter is that religion is highly involved in U.S. politics, thus it should be taxed.

Can't argue with that. It's a much stronger argument than...

...traffic congestion every Sunday morning till noon.

Hell, I live by a FOOTBALL STADIUM...so unless 70,000 people attend that church, I have it worse than you do.

But it must not bother either of us that bad, or we would move, right?