david seredas "the case for nasa ufos" film

Originally posted by tock
So, we are really talking about 2 very distinct things.

We are not. We are talking about the exact same thing, as I have stated before. The anomaly is within the camera and not the object. It is a simple effect produced by the ccd in both cases. What you see recorded is not an exact representation of what was there - it is a camera anomaly.

I've looked over these vids very closely, and have to agree with tock on this one, these don't look like airy discs to me - although they do superficially look similar. In the tether footage, it it obvious that these objects pass both behind and in front of the tether, which is not consistent with the ice/debris theory.

Also, although the UV/IR cameras that captured this footage can see in visible light wavelengths, cameras which were only sensitive to visible light wavelengths did NOT capture these objects. If they were just simply ice/debris that was out of focus, then why did they not show up on the cameras sensitive to viable wavelengths?

It seems as though some of the best footage has been ignored in this thread:

0:4:56 and 1:32:29 (complete sequence)
ring formation (STS-80) - natural objects don't take up positions IN FORMATION and then light up (at the point of taking up it's stationary (in relation to the Shuttle) position in the formation) - this behavior is impossible without some intelligent control!

It's a shame, but this footage is cut off in Serada's presentation, before you see the triangular object on the horizon clearly... I wish I could find a link to the continuation of this footage, but I can' seem to!

Another STS footage clip, which some of you may have seen before, that I think speaks for itself can be found here:
video.google.com...

Try and explain that away!

By the way, although I think Mr Serada has only good intentions, I noticed he made some very basic errors and assumptions in some of the statements he made. It's been a while since I went through the whole thing, and I can only remember one of the mistakes he made.

He said something along the lines of "once an object enters the atmosphere it can not escape - unless it is under the control of some outside intelligence", which is totally wrong!

There is a well known incident, which took place in 1972, and was filmed by multiple people, where a small asteroid entered, and left Earth's atmosphere under it's own control. Mr Serada it seems, has forgotten about that most basic of principals, momentum!

Here is a link to some info about the Jackson Lakes Fireball as it has come to be known:

www.meteorobs.org...

So, I'd be careful of buying into any of Mr Serada's complex theories, but I do think he does a good job of analyzing the footage and pointing out things that need further investigation, but that's about it.

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.

.........Also, although the UV/IR cameras that captured this footage can see in visible light wavelengths, cameras which were only sensitive to visible light wavelengths did NOT capture these objects. If they were just simply ice/debris that was out of focus, then why did they not show up on the cameras sensitive to viable wavelengths?.......

how do you know that? do any of the astronauts say that they cant see the objects, but they show on the uv cameras?

no.

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
I've looked over these vids very closely, and have to agree with tock on this one, these don't look like airy discs to me - although they do superficially look similar. In the tether footage, it it obvious that these objects pass both behind and in front of the tether, which is not consistent with the ice/debris theory.

Hi CHUD, if you haven't already, it might be worth your while to read through the thread as some of the points you raise here have been explained - the illusion of the object passing behind the tether, for instance.

Another STS footage clip, which some of you may have seen before, that I think speaks for itself can be found here:
video.google.com...

Try and explain that away!

Odd footage due to the smoke or cloud that appears to spill into shot. As for the object I'd say it was a small particle being 'table-tennised' by the thrusters that are on various parts of the shuttle. If it was another 'spaceship' why are they always virtually the same distance away from the camera every time they a filmed?

Night
That's the whole point in these videos...
That's what I've been trying to explain, but you probably don't even bother reading what I type you are so blinded and stubborn.

Originally posted by torsion

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
I've looked over these vids very closely, and have to agree with tock on this one, these don't look like airy discs to me - although they do superficially look similar. In the tether footage, it it obvious that these objects pass both behind and in front of the tether, which is not consistent with the ice/debris theory.

Hi CHUD, if you haven't already, it might be worth your while to read through the thread as some of the points you raise here have been explained - the illusion of the object passing behind the tether, for instance.

Another STS footage clip, which some of you may have seen before, that I think speaks for itself can be found here:
video.google.com...

Try and explain that away!

Odd footage due to the smoke or cloud that appears to spill into shot. As for the object I'd say it was a small particle being 'table-tennised' by the thrusters that are on various parts of the shuttle. If it was another 'spaceship' why are they always virtually the same distance away from the camera every time they a filmed?

You can see all kind of dots flying in the background, same obejcts.

How about because there is 15 000 crafts like that around the planet?

Hi CHUD, if you haven't already, it might be worth your while to read through the thread as some of the points you raise here have been explained - the illusion of the object passing behind the tether, for instance.

Where, exactly was that explained? Satisfactorily, I add?

Originally posted by gottago

Hi CHUD, if you haven't already, it might be worth your while to read through the thread as some of the points you raise here have been explained - the illusion of the object passing behind the tether, for instance.

Where, exactly was that explained? Satisfactorily, I add?

Somewhere in the thread. Because the camera can focus on the brighter tether the small debris particle effectively dissappears on that area of the ccd resulting in the appearance of it travelling behind the tether.

I know this won't satisfy those who think the small piece of debris is a 3km wide alien space ship, but I'm sure no plausible explanation will shake their deep-rooted erroneous belief.

Originally posted by nightsider
how do you know that? do any of the astronauts say that they cant see the objects, but they show on the uv cameras?

no.

I'm pretty sure this was stated somewhere, but as I said, it's been a while since I went through all the STS stuff. I have a feeling it is somewhere in the tape where the guy who recorded them speaks about how he did it, here: video.google.com...

I'll have a look for it and post back here if I find it.

Originally posted by torsion
Hi CHUD, if you haven't already, it might be worth your while to read through the thread as some of the points you raise here have been explained - the illusion of the object passing behind the tether, for instance.

Thanks for pointing that out torsion - I have read through the whole thread earlier on, and I did see the theory that it is an illusion, but that does not explain why some do, and some don't. If it's dust/debris, then either all will or all won't. Simple logic...

It also does not even go anywhere near to explaining the sperm/tadpole like UFO's which are seen from time to time - completely different shape and motion compared to the other objects!

Originally posted by torsion
Odd footage due to the smoke or cloud that appears to spill into shot.

The "smoke" is due to the sun rising into view (out of shot), over Earth's horizon. This causes "lens flare", which is the reduction in contrast that appears to be the "smoke" that we are seeing in this clip.

Originally posted by torsion
As for the object I'd say it was a small particle being 'table-tennised' by the thrusters that are on various parts of the shuttle.

IMO, if those were thrusters, the motion would be no-where near as smooth.. we are talking about small debris/ice crystals here (if you believe NASA) - think what happens, if you take a desktop-fan and then drop an object like a snow-flake or piece of confetti into its "path"- it kind of meanders down, and when it hits the air being blown out by the fan, shoots off like rocket!

Originally posted by torsion
If it was another 'spaceship' why are they always virtually the same distance away from the camera every time they a filmed?

This is obviously a large object, and a long way off, but it is virtually impossible to put values on this without a frame of reference, like we had in the tether incident (which is one of the reasons why that is such an important piece of footage).

In space, most of the visual clues which we have here on earth to gage size are missing, which is why our brains have difficulty gaging the size/distance of these objects, and cameras are not the best way of representing 3-dimensional objects obviously, since they are 2-dimensional in their output.

The motion, in this clip, is the only real visual cue to the size and distance of the object.. it has to have serious momentum to make a maneuver like this, which is a clue that this is a large object, and must be quite far away, since it appears quite small on the tape.

I still think though, the ring formation (STS-80) is the best evidence for intelligent control of these UFO's - check the footage if you have not already, and I challenge anyone to debunk it :
www.youtube.com...

Although I think Mr. Serada's footage is a bit better quality, this version has the triangular "UFO" footage which was mostly missing from Mr. Serada's footage IIRC.

I hope everyone is "full-screening" these vids to squeeze out the most detail from them!

That was great stuff C.H.U.D.
Thanks.

ok, the video with the circular formation is really interesting, i admit. i have seen it before, but...

i think i might have an explanation for that one too, but i wish that the videos were better quality.

you can notice in that video that the shuttle is moving to the dark side of the earth, and you know that because you can see the earth below getting darker as the shuttle approaches the terminator, the line which divides night and day.

now,

you can see the object become brighter as the earth becomes darker... i am pretty sure that this is caused by the fact that the sun still illuminates the particles (or whatever), even though the shuttle is in the shadow zone.

the same thing happens when you see satellites flare up in the night sky, and then slowly fade out.

why are they in a formation, i dont know.... it could be by accident...

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.

Thanks for pointing that out torsion - I have read through the whole thread earlier on, and I did see the theory that it is an illusion, but that does not explain why some do, and some don't. If it's dust/debris, then either all will or all won't. Simple logic...

None of them go behind the tether itself, they are all in the foreground close to the shuttle and camera.

It also does not even go anywhere near to explaining the sperm/tadpole like UFO's which are seen from time to time - completely different shape and motion compared to the other objects!

The tadpole effect occurs when the focal plane is changed and the particles actually do take on a sharper appearance as they become focused. The tail is 'digital drag' on the ccd.

The "smoke" is due to the sun rising into view (out of shot), over Earth's horizon. This causes "lens flare", which is the reduction in contrast that appears to be the "smoke" that we are seeing in this clip.

That sounds good to me.

This is obviously a large object, and a long way off, but it is virtually impossible to put values on this without a frame of reference, like we had in the tether incident (which is one of the reasons why that is such an important piece of footage).

Why is it obviously a large object? Its size cannot be determined, but to me it is a small piece of debris close to the shuttle being affected by the shuttle thrusters.

The motion, in this clip, is the only real visual cue to the size and distance of the object.. it has to have serious momentum to make a maneuver like this, which is a clue that this is a large object, and must be quite far away, since it appears quite small on the tape.

I don't see how the motion of the object can provide any clue to its distance or size.

I still think though, the ring formation (STS-80) is the best evidence for intelligent control of these UFO's - check the footage if you have not already, and I challenge anyone to debunk it

Probably ice particles breaking away from the main engines which are circular in shape and at the back end of the shuttle. Again, isn't it a staggering coincidence that if they are alien craft they are once more pretty much the same distance from the camera as all the others.

Originally posted by nightsider
ok, the video with the circular formation is really interesting, i admit. i have seen it before, but...
why are they in a formation, i dont know.... it could be by accident...

The accident was NASA's--capturing it on film.

Okay, here's another one for you debunkers to try to debunk:
the infamous "Where's MIR?" footage.

You've got literally hundreds of teeming "stars" or "dustbunnies" moving in front of earth, leaving earth's atmosphere, entering it too, zipping along in arcing formations just beyond the stratosphere, changing directions, slowing, speeding up....

Space is such a teeming aquarium they have no idea where MIR is. The camera doesn't know where to focus, you almost feel for them...And the poor woman who has to narrate it at Mission Control...

Have at it

Thanks tock

Originally posted by nightsider

you can notice in that video that the shuttle is moving to the dark side of the earth, and you know that because you can see the earth below getting darker as the shuttle approaches the terminator, the line which divides night and day.

now,

you can see the object become brighter as the earth becomes darker... i am pretty sure that this is caused by the fact that the sun still illuminates the particles (or whatever), even though the shuttle is in the shadow zone.

the same thing happens when you see satellites flare up in the night sky, and then slowly fade out.

why are they in a formation, i dont know.... it could be by accident...

Well, I considered that theory too, and it is true the terminator appears to be approaching, but why is it they were not illuminated in a consistent fashion then, that you would expect to see - it is highly unlikely that these objects could be half lit by the sun and half in the shade, or one in, four out, especially if you are to believe as NASA says, that these are tiny ice crystals/debris, within close vicinity (they would have to be to show up right?), what is the chance that "cloud of debris" is bisected by the terminator, for even a moment ?!

Even if you can convince yourself, that this sunlight glinting off crystals, why would the last crystal (to move into the final center position) which starts out being above (ie even more out in the sunlight) not be brightly illuminated during that phase, and only become illuminated seemingly "lower down" once in position?

But, the most compelling aspect of all of this is that, these objects are seen to move, and then take up a position stationary in respect to the Shuttle, and that point is crucial, because un-intelligent debris can not just accidentally take up position, effectively placing itself in the same orbit as the shuttle, and certainly not 6 of them in a circular formation!

I'm sure if u asked any sane scientist the odds of that happening, he would tell you that the odds would be astronomical. I think there can be only one answer to these questions.. Intelligent control!

Perhaps NASA or some black project playing a bad joke on us is a possibility, but I don't think so!

Also, there is further evidence that IMO destroys the "airy-disk" theory - if you watch that last link I posted in my last post to this thread, at 3:25 approx., a disc shaped UFO appears from nowhere - this would not be possible for an airy-disk!

Just glad someone with more ease with words can jump in.

I tend to follow my intuition. It it has worked nicely in the last year Other people can do the hard work

Not that you weren't doing a fine job on you own tock, but I figured you could use a bit more fresh ammo

For me, the STS evidence is the best we have. People have tried to debunk it for years, and failed as far as I can tell. I think it deserves to be pushed into public view, where it could help the case for full disclosure.

It would be great if someone could put together a proper presentation, which addressed some of the issues brought up in this thread, and had good quality footage like Serada's...

I'd do it, but I don't have the skills or the time right now to take on a project of this magnitude on my own (and be able to do it the justice it deserves), but I'd be more than happy to act as "scientific adviser" to make sure the presentation got the basic facts straight - any takers ?

C.H.U.D.

Great posts

Martyn Stubbs, who IIRC is a video editor with a public television station in Vancouver, was the one who had recorded almost all the NASA/STS video feeds. He's made several video compendiums from them that you can find by googling his name, and I believe he was Sereda's original source.

But you're right, these videos are far too important and far too marginalized to remain Youtube oddities.

The tether incident, the "space ballet" you linked, and the MIR footage are simply staggering. We seem to have forgotten that John Glenn saw "fireflies" when he was in orbit, and NASA at the time was openly speculating about the possibility of living entities in near space. Don't hear any more about that.

Originally posted by torsion
None of them go behind the tether itself, they are all in the foreground close to the shuttle and camera.

Watch the footage again, some pass behind, some in front - keep in mind the discs appear to be partially transparent, which would also fit with the fact that the cameras can see into the viable light spectrum as well as the invisible, and thus the part transparent image which would be possible if the UFOs were cloaked only in the viable spectrum.

Originally posted by torsion
The tadpole effect occurs when the focal plane is changed and the particles actually do take on a sharper appearance as they become focused. The tail is 'digital drag' on the ccd.

If you can find an example that looks anything like those seen in the STS footage, then I might be prepared to swallow that! ..but I have never seen "digital drag" like that before!

Originally posted by torsion
That sounds good to me.

Glad you agree with me on that point at least

Originally posted by torsion
Why is it obviously a large object? Its size cannot be determined, but to me it is a small piece of debris close to the shuttle being affected by the shuttle thrusters.

Why? because it takes a long time to change direction, this implies momentum, and therefore large mass/high speed object. Wheres a physicist when you need one... I wish I could explain it better, but perhaps someone else who has a physics background can step in here?!

Originally posted by torsion
I don't see how the motion of the object can provide any clue to its distance or size.

The clue, as I said is in the time it takes to change direction.

Originally posted by torsion
Probably ice particles breaking away from the main engines which are circular in shape and at the back end of the shuttle. Again, isn't it a staggering coincidence that if they are alien craft they are once more pretty much the same distance from the camera as all the others.

See my second to previous post for the reasons I disagree with you there

Thanks gottago,

Yeah, they are all much too important to be sidelined as they seem to have been. It's a real shame, as the source is so solid, being a huge governmental organization which is trusted in the publics eye.

The "spot MIR" footage is also a classic! Thanks for bringing that vid up It's the STS-80 ring formation that always gets me though, every time I watch it, it sends a shiver down my spine! I had to watch it a few times before it fully sunk in.

There is also another great clip, of a formation of tens or perhaps 100's of UFOs, also flying over Africa (IIRC), and they sparkle like jewels in the sun.. If you have not seen it yet, then I highly recommend having a look for it! Now if only someone could tie that one in with a vid/sighting from the ground.. that's what I would be trying to do..

People can claim they are just ice crystals all they want, but so far all the evidence that I have seen says these are not, and what little evidence I have seen that these are is weak at best.

Originally posted by gottago
We seem to have forgotten that John Glenn saw "fireflies" when he was in orbit, and NASA at the time was openly speculating about the possibility of living entities in near space. Don't hear any more about that.

Check out this ATS thread, if you have not already gottago