The "THEY" in "They did it."

Originally posted by Essedarius
It's based on the "fact" that 200 or so people with intimate knowledge of the 9/11 operation are EVIL...like HITLER evil...like "3,000 people dead but I increase my net worth by FIVE PERCENT?!?? YOU BET!" kind of evil.

I know people like that exist. I also know they are far outnumbered by people who are DISGUSTED by them and would be happy to blow the lid off of their EVIL plans.

Let's talk about THE MEDIA for example. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the cover-up pulled by "the media" and how "they" are the brainwashing arm of the government.

Please.

There is not one single news station in America that would not sell their soul to Ted Turner for the chance to scoop a legitimate 9/11 conspiracy.

Not one.

It is genuinely and truly ABSURD to think otherwise.

Not to mention, George W. Bush can't take a wizz without someone leaking a memo about it.

Yet, somehow they murdered thousands of our own people and nobody spilled the beans? Come on.

I have watched them all..my conclusion? They are all turds in a huge pile of crap.

Furthermore, if a person is not wise enough to see them for what they are ("free trial" spam for $$, and anti-semitic propaganda)...perhaps some one needs to do a bit more reading and soul searching into why their brain is so selective on material it will accept as fact, and what material is rejected as lies.

Originally posted by whiterabbitYet, somehow they murdered thousands of our own people and nobody spilled the beans? Come on.

Doesn't this same logic apply to the al-Qaeda plot?

How could 19 arabs be supported by al-Qaeda for several years, including going to flight schools in the U.S., *not* have anybody from al-Qaeda "spill the beans" about what they were planning?

Isn't this especially odd considering that the multi-billion U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agencies were working on sniffing out al-Qaeda's plans 24/7? How could a small group like al-Qaeda plan and carry out this operation without anybody spilling the beans and the CIA and/or FBI finding out about it ahead of time?

Originally posted by nick7261
Doesn't this same logic apply to the al-Qaeda plot?

Of course it does.

It's just that you're talking about 19 people versus 200. (Hell, according to some CTs, it took 19 FBI Operatives just to knock over the light poles around the Pentagon.)

Nick, if I told you I robbed a guy for $20 today you'd call me a criminal.

If I told you the guy I robbed was a cop you'd call me insane.

If I told you that I had two friends intentionally crash their car into a bus stop during commuter hours because the stop would contain the highest number of individuals capable of starting an effective lawsuit that would clog the courts and divert media attention from the fact that an officer responding to the accident noted that a $20 bill was missing from the passenger seat of his cruiser...you know what you'd call me?

A liar.

The "19 Arabs" story contains a distinct operational group with a clear motive. The "Government Conspiracy" story contains a nebulous cast of thousands acting without a shared motive.

Make no mistake, choosing between "19 Arabs" and "Government Conspiracy" is choosing between "Highly Unlikely" and "Impossible."

But if that's the choice...you kind of have to go with "Highly Unlikely", don't you?

Originally posted by Essedarius
Make no mistake, choosing between "19 Arabs" and "Government Conspiracy" is choosing between "Highly Unlikely" and "Impossible."

But if that's the choice...you kind of have to go with "Highly Unlikely", don't you?

Excellently construed metaphor aside, this false dichotomy again snaps back on the official argument as well. Imagine for a moment the 19 Arabs part is true AND the gov. sonspiracy, but put the hold on numbers. Since the attack was carried out by four teams of willing Arabs, all that remains is failing to stop it and perhaps riggin the WTC which is admittedly more of an undertaking, so let's ignore iit for the moment. Using you descriptors, what we have is a choice between the "impossible," a government conspiracy of (at last one at FAA, one at NMCC, one at White House, one at Defense, and at least a few others) or the even more impossible empire-justifying terror attack slipping thru by sheer coincidence and over-the-top-incompetence.

If that's the choice, you have to go with impossible, unless you ant to champion the even-more impossible, which has never been a problem for people with faith.

Originally posted by Essedarius
INCOMPETENCE DOES NOT EQUAL CONSPIRACY.

Problem is that if the agencies involved were so incompetent why was no one fired or punished, instead those at NORAD involved were promoted.



[edit on 5-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Ok, besides the obvious thought that a clique of neocon traitors/insiders planning mayhem and murder might just have every reason to keep their conspiracy secret,

And that there is a long and sad history of false-flag terror operations plotted and/or carried out by the US government -- Tonkin, Northwoods, USS Liberty and Okla City come first to mind --

I just have one simple request for those who dismiss 9/11 truthers:

Explain how the WTC towers collapsed, using logic, statics, and physics.

Why did the tops of the towers, which began to fall in a mass, never reach the ground, but exploded in mid-air?

How could the building fall--excuse me, explode--from the top down? Falling on the path of greatest resistance? Against the core which, no longer having to support the weight of the pulverized debris above it, nonetheless also collapses?

Ok 9/11 truth debunkers, convince me that, among all the bizarre anomalies of 9/11, that simple logic and basic Newtonian physics also stopped working that day.

That much alone, and I'll even believe that the 757 that hit the Pentagon didn't have wings or engines.

[edit on 5-3-2007 by gottago]

You sure seem to have a lot of questions.....Perhaps you need to do some objective research...heh

Originally posted by GwionX
You sure seem to have a lot of questions.....Perhaps you need to do some objective research...heh

Wow!!!

Thanks Mr. Dark Lord of Gwion for all the great answers! Got me straight in the Lizard Brain--ouch!

From now on I'll be sure not to ask any more stupid questions that demand thought!

I might be...ridiculed--oh no!!!

Golly, I sure feel much safer now! Thanks so much, and God Bless America!

[edit on 5-3-2007 by gottago]

Anytime Skippy.

Did you know I am a distant relative of George Washington?

So if the Lizzard theory is right...I am part lizzard myself.

You are quite perceptive.


/tounge in cheek

Originally posted by GwionX
Did you know I am a distant relative of George Washington?

So if the Lizzard theory is right...I am part lizzard myself.

You are quite perceptive.

Thanks.

Actually I'd sooner believe you're a lizard descended from George Washington than that 19 Arabs with box cutters directed by a CIA operative Muslim extremist with a laptop in a cave in Afghanistan perpetrated 9/11.

But mine's just some crazy conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by sp00n1
Let's see, the Manhattan project had over 150,000 people working on it at its peak, over 500,000 people had intimate knowledge of the project. Yet, somehow something this complex, which is obviously impossible to keep secret, remained top secret until we dropped the bombs on japan.

For about four years, every major corporation and university in america was involved in the project.

Lets see, who knew?

DoE
NSA
CIA
ARMY
ACoE
AEC
OSRD
Los Alamos National Labs
Oak Ridge
Lawrence Livermore National Labs
Columbia University
University of Chicago
University of California
Oxford University
Lockheed Martin

Harry C. Anderson John Hopkins University
Capt. John A. Anthes U.S. Engineer, Madison Square Area
Dr. W.D. Armstrong University of Minnesota
Dr. David B. Ast Dental Hygiene, State of New York
Dr. A.N. Benning Du Pont de Nemours Co.
Lt. O.P. Bergelin Wilmington Area
Dr. B.S. Bibby Tufts Dental School
Capt. E.B. Brown U.S. Engineer, Madison Square Area
Fred A. Bryan University of Rochester
Herbert O. Calvery Food and Drug Administration
Graham Cook Columbia Area
James E. Curran Kellex Corporation
W.E. Crutchfield, Jr. Merck & Company
Dr. A.G. Cranch Union Carbide and Carbon Company
Dr. Peter P. Dale University of Rochester
Dr. H. Dean National Institute of Health
J.M.A. duBruyne Bell Telephone Company
Dr. L.T. Fairhall National Institute of Health
Joseph T. Faust District Safety Section
Dr. Chas. M. Fehr Pennsylvannia Salt Company
Capt. J.L. Ferry U.S. Engineer, Manhattan District
S.B. Finn New York State Dept. of Health
Robert D. Fowler Columbia Area
Dr. Francis C. Frary Aluminum Company of America
Frank J. Giaccio Kellex Corporation
Elroy M. Gladrow Iowa State College
L.L. Hedgepeth Pennsylvania Salt Company
Dr. Francis F. Heyroth Kettering Laboratory
Dr. Harold C. Hodge Rochester University
Dr. Edward J. Largent Kettering Laboratory
H.B. McCauley U.S. Engineer, Rochester Area
T.J. McKinzie Kellex Corporation
Dr. Paul A. Neal National Institute of Health
Dr. J.J. Nickson University of Chicago
John J. Prendergast Chrysler Corporation
Dr. R. Rosen Kellex Corporation
Dr. H.H. Schrenk Bureau of Mines
S.C. Schuman Kellex Corporation
Dr. J.H. Sterner Tennessee Eastman
S. Warren Stetler District Safety Section
Dr. H.E. Stokinger University of Rochester
George M. Suter University of Rochester
Dr. C.F. Swinehart Harshaw Chemical Company
Ann T. Tarbell University of Rochester
Harold E. Thayer Mallinckrodt Electrochemical Co.
John Turkevice Princeton University
Robert A.N. Turner, Jr. Du Pont de Nemours Co.
Les Van Orden Kellex Corporation
Dr. Carl Vogtlin University of Rochester
Col. S.L. Warren U.S. Engineers, Manhattan District
Carrol S. Weil University of Rochester
Richard S. Weiss Mallinckrodt Electrochemical Co.


Look at the sites where they worked on it!! All over the country!
en.wikipedia.org...:Manhattan_Project_US_Map.png

[edit on 3/4/2007 by sp00n1]

But you just don't understand, this proves nothing!!!! Just because hundreds of thousands were able to keep something like this secret doesn't mean that people who did not receive the true details but were sworn to secrecy could keep their mouths shut for 5 1/2 years! Fool!!!

Yeah, it would be nearly impossible to keep something like this a secret. And the people saying this have how much experience in an intelligience like environment?

*foot in mouth again. Already had to create a new alias for saying too much! LOL*

[edit on 6-3-2007 by dariousg]

Originally posted by gottago
Explain how the WTC towers collapsed, using logic, statics, and physics.
…convince me that, among all the bizarre anomalies of 9/11, that simple logic and basic Newtonian physics also stopped working that day.

Truth is, I’m not sure. To me personally, yeah, it seems a little strange. My personal theory does not involve the buildings falling solely due to the impact of the airplanes.

Of course, the NIST and the ASCE disagree with you and I and, you have to admit, they really know a lot more than we do about this type of thing. (With apologies to you if you are a structural engineer.)

But I agree that the PHYSICS of that day are where the Truth Movement should hang its hat, and move out from there in careful, plausible increments.

Don’t, for example, go here:

…there is a long and sad history of false-flag terror operations plotted and/or carried out by the US government – Tonkin…

Zero casualties.
Operation: 3 North Vietnamese torpedo boats “attack” the USS Maddox (The ship sustained ONE bullet hole.)

…Northwoods…

Zero casualties.
Operation: Proposed but never implemented.

…USS Liberty…

34 U.S. soldiers killed.
Operation: Approximately 4 Israeli aircraft and 3 Israeli torpedo boats are told to open fire on a “Russian” ship that is actually U.S.

…Okla City…

168 civilians killed.
Operation: 3 men arrange a truck of explosives to be parked next to a building.


So consider for a second exactly how far out the “insiders” stuck their necks on these operations. Not far. We’re talking about operative groups of less than 20 and, with the exception of OK, a stage of operations that is virtually impossible to review after the fact.

Compare that to…

SEPTEMBER 11th, 2001
Approximately 3,000 civilians killed.
Operation:
19 Terrorists, previously placed and handled by the U.S. Intelligence Community commandeer commercial aircraft and crash them into prominent U.S. locations. The FAA, under direction of NORAD, is ordered to ignore the planes in order to allow safe passage. The locations were prepared by the FBI in cooperation with military demolition teams to collapse. These demolition teams were allowed access to the building by building management who would be rewarded for compliance via massive insurance and stock payouts. Simultaneously, FBI teams in cooperation with Pentagon officials prepared the Pentagon for a staged collision, actually perpetrated by military aircraft firing an air to surface missile, by reinforcing the wall of the building that would be hit, and planning the systematic and strategic removal of light poles in order to make it appear as though an aircraft inflicted the damage.


One of these kids is doing his own thing.
It doesn’t work.

Here is why I started this thread, and it’s my main point:

I’M NOT SAYING SOMETHING ODD DIDN’T HAPPEN ON 9/11.
But if indeed there is a conspiracy, and if there is any chance that this conspiracy can be delivered to the public in a digestible form, common logic must be used to weed out the borderline INSANE operational blueprint that is currently being presented by the Truth Movement.

…besides the obvious thought that a clique of neocon traitors/insiders planning mayhem and murder might just have every reason to keep their conspiracy secret…

Please don’t use the word “clique.” That implies a small, closely knit grouping. More accurate words for your purpose might be “legion”, “multitude”, or “throng.”

2 table spoons of bush, 3 times a day , makes the truth seem so far away.

Originally posted by Essedarius

…USS Liberty…

34 U.S. soldiers killed.
Operation: Approximately 4 Israeli aircraft and 3 Israeli torpedo boats are told to open fire on a “Russian” ship that is actually U.S.

We don't know for sure of the aircraft were Israeli, the aircraft were unmkarked.

The ship was flying a large American Flag, it would have been difficult for anyone to confuse it.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
We don't know for sure of the aircraft were Israeli, the aircraft were unmkarked.

The ship was flying a large American Flag, it would have been difficult for anyone to confuse it.

Okay.

I'll concede that the USS Liberty was a 100% full on false flag black op project.

But you have to concede that, as a Black Ops project, it was 1,000,000% easier to pull off than 9/11...with way less resources, monumentally less risk, and an EQUAL RESULT.

Originally posted by Essedarius
I'll concede that the USS Liberty was a 100% full on false flag black op project.

But you have to concede that, as a Black Ops project, it was 1,000,000% easier to pull off than 9/11...with way less resources, monumentally less risk, and an EQUAL RESULT.

Why would it be that much more difficult to pull off 911. You believe a small group of terrorist pulled of 911 so why coudn't a small group of special ops people pull it off ?

First of all, I'm not implying anything...what I'm saying is that there are not A FEW inconsistencies and incomplete theories, there is a stinking, rancid, MOUNTAIN of them.

And now we get back to the problem. Just too much stinking garbage floating around out there. The problem is that it is a common practice that when you want to confuse the issue you start your 'own' conspiracy theories just to make sure that debunkers have enough conflicting evidence to keep throwing out there.

Yes, we'll find the truth from beneath the heap one day.

Everyone keeps saying that it is just not possible for our government to have done this because it involved killing thousands of civilians. Yet they conveniently forget the thousands of 'AMERICAN' citizens that the government has killed or injured during their various 'tests'. From radiation poisoning to drugging people to see how they can be psychologically manipulated. They denied this for many years yet finally had to come forward and take ownership after all of the evidence piled up. Kind of like all of the evidence that is piling up right now for this event and others around the world.

So the argument of there being no way our government would actually harm their own civilians historically does not hold much water my friends. It's about the end means and establishing a power base. We have been trying to get into the Middle East for a hundred years now. Their are documents everywhere and books written on it from the start of the 1900's that speak to this goal. Now we're there and we aren't leaving anytime soon according to what many of the reterning vets are saying. We are building a permanent foothold.

It just kills me that people will put so much faith into a government that has failed them repeatedly and has tried to force differing stories down their throats via the media and education.

Okay, ranting now. Just trying to put a little perspective in the defense that you and many others seem to be using on these topics.

Our government has killed its own and will continue to do so as long as it can gain the power that it seeks. The cost of a mere 3000 lives on that day along with a few thousand more in the wars since is a small price to them. A small price to pay in order to generate billions and even trillions of dollars in spending.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Why would it be that much more difficult to pull off 911.

Harder than the USS Liberty? Really?
You don't see 9/11 as being significantly more complex?

You believe a small group of terrorist pulled of 911 so why coudn't a small group of special ops people pull it off ?

Don't confuse could with would.

I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record here, but I'm going to keep saying it until someone provides a logical answer:

WHAT WAS SO GREAT THAT THE GOVERNMENT GAINED FROM 9/11?

You cannot deny that 9/11, if it was an inside job, was a complex and RISK-HEAVY endeavor. It impossible to logically contradict that.

And complex and risk-heavy endeavor would only be undertaken if:

a) There was no other way to accomplish the final goal.

or

b) The reward is significant enough to outweigh all risk.

You can apply these two criteria to any operation, and one of them will be met. For example:

Originally posted by dariousg
…they conveniently forget the thousands of 'AMERICAN' citizens that the government has killed or injured during their various 'tests'. From radiation poisoning to drugging people to see how they can be psychologically manipulated.

The criteria are CLEARLY met in this example, and it is obvious WHY individuals inside the government would try to do this:

a)
To test the human body, you need a human body…pigs or monkeys just can’t give an exact reading, especially psychologically, yes?

b)
I’ve heard that these clandestine tests advanced medicine as much as 25 to 50 years in some areas. The tests could be done in secure locations with little risk of a leak, because all witnesses would be actively involved in the operation and would, therefore, be bearing part of the risk themselves.


But, for 9/11, I don't see either of those criteria being met. PLEASE...please please please let me know if you think I’m missing something.

It's about the end means and establishing a power base. We have been trying to get into the Middle East for a hundred years now.

And yet we willingly withdrew from that area ten years prior to needing a public massacre of our own people to usher us BACK?

It just kills me that people will put so much faith into a government that has failed them repeatedly and has tried to force differing stories down their throats via the media and education.

Can you give a personal example of how the government has duped you? One that drastically affects your personal life? (I know it sounds like I’m being a smart ass, but I’m sincerely curious. I’ve never understood the stigma of “government as evil controller of minds” because I guess I’ve just never really experienced it myself at the level you’re implying.)

Originally posted by Essedarius

WHAT WAS SO GREAT THAT THE GOVERNMENT GAINED FROM 9/11?

Maybe you should ask the government contractors who are making billions and cheack out who are on thier boards.

If the government let Pearl Harbor happen what is so big about letting a few planes hit some buildings.