The "THEY" in "They did it."

How about the real "skunk works"?

Black budget aircraft that are designed, built, and tested for decades before they go public?

How do all those thousands of people keep quiet?

How about the SR-71? Tens of thousands of people worked on it. Hundreds of corporations around the world supplies parts, with no idea what they were part of.

There were even F***in' companies in russia suppling the titanium for the aircraft skin to "the enemy", with absolutely no idea what they were part of.

Hey essedarius,

How'd the Nazis keep the Holocaust secret? Unless you're on of those people that say it didnt happen?

How'd they keep thousand of people quiet about killing millions of innocent people?

How'd they keep the rest of the world from finding out?

How'd they keep their towns people from smelling the burning flesh?

Unless, of course, they were all so brainwashed as to not believe what was happening. Maybe they though that smell was from the munitions factories? Maybe they thought their fascist dictator was actually god-reincarnate, and he actually cared about his people?

Originally posted by sp00n1
How about the real "skunk works"?

Black budget aircraft that are designed, built, and tested for decades before they go public?

How do all those thousands of people keep quiet?

How about the SR-71? Tens of thousands of people worked on it. Hundreds of corporations around the world supplies parts, with no idea what they were part of.

The SR-71 was around for 10 years before the government came out and confirmed its exsistance and only then because a airline piolt was going to go public after seeing 1. So the government annouced it to the public.

Nah, man...

Obviously the SR-71 never really existed, because its just too complex to keep something like that a secret.

I agree with the original post. For the Executive Branch to have *pulled it off* would have led to (at least) a single leak at some point.

On the other hand, a single mole in the DoD would have sufficed to carry out all of the necessary *changes* esp if that mole had admin level access. A dozen well placed moles would be better, and I think necessary.

While there is much to point to the idea that the Executive Branch knew *something* was going on (for instance, the curious behavior of the Secret Service in Florida), there has never been any evidence to point to the Executive Branch as the primary planners of 9/11. After all this time, it is my opinion this points to a cover up by the Feds, and while that in and of itself is terrible, it is different from the massacre of citizens. They are accessories after the fact, IMHO.

I have wondered who could have such a mole in the DoD, and the answer I come to is not an Arab living in a cave, no matter how much money, faith and followers he may have. Whoever it was, I believe the mole was caught, and the cover up is more about the identity of the mole and his connections both to his own counrty and ours.

I still will hold that a small cabal in the Executive Branch may have been deeply involved, but the operation itself was planned and executed not by the Executive Branch, but by operators of a third party, identity unknown to us at this point. No more than a small few members of the Administration could have known about it.

As to comparisons to the Manhattan Project, the cases are very dissimilar, and its really comparing apples and oranges. In one case there are patriots fighting a war in a top secret project, in the other, there are people knowingly acting in clearly treasonous ways to murder innocent Americans, either at the time, or at least, in hindsight. The psychology of the two is so different that I believe comparisons are meaningless.

For the government to of DONT the attack themselves, yes its a large collaboration.

But for the government to sit back, and ensure a 'stand down' was ordered supposidly bit mistake during an attack.. would take very littl.e.

Manhatten Project, SR 71, Stealth -- none of these things had much to do with the Direct Murder of American Citizens.

If they had... They wouldn't have remained secret until thier initial function was revealed already.

For instance: this "9/11-inside job" theory is like trying to hide the Manhatten Project AFTER the bombs were dropped in Japan.

Originally posted by GwionX
Manhatten Project, SR 71, Stealth -- none of these things had much to do with the Direct Murder of American Citizens.

But it does prove that things that go on can be kept secret by hundreds if not thousands of people.

Originally posted by GwionX
Manhatten Project, SR 71, Stealth -- none of these things had much to do with the Direct Murder of American Citizens.

But it does prove that things that go on can be kept secret by hundreds if not thousands of people.

Here is a good article on why it is different:

www.pointlesswasteoftime.com...

Originally posted by zren
So, because the truth movement has some "fat", solely because of that everything they say will not be taken seriously.

Correct. It's called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" and it is a fine American tradition.

Even the things which are not concidered "fat" and proves in one way or another complictity from the Government and/or other parties.

I have yet to see anything that proves without a SHADOW of a doubt that the government was behind 9/11. Here's what I have seen:

1)
I've seen proof that some odd things happened that day.

2)
I've seen an avalanche of theories that would make Alfred Hitchcock blush.

Solely because of a few inconsistencies and incomplete theories/facts all of it must be bull# is basically what you imply by that...

First of all, I'm not implying anything...what I'm saying is that there are not A FEW inconsistencies and incomplete theories, there is a stinking, rancid, MOUNTAIN of them.

I believe that the truth is out there...it's just UNDER that mountain. And instead of digging for that PROVEABLE truth, you've planted your flag at the top of BULL# mountain and challenged the public to climb it.

But they won't...they'll laugh at you because, in the end, you're just a crazy dude standing on top of a pile of crap.

And THIS what you describe is EXACTLY what the media do on purpose...

Names please. Names and titles. Don't feed me "THE MEDIA" and "THEY"...no more bogeymen...if I can't add a name to my chart I don't want to hear it.

I think this figure Essedarius posted shows how little people would even have to know about the 'bigger picture', only a few know it 'all', information based on a "need to know" basis is passed down through the 'ranks'. Thats how this crap works.

Cool. But that's not how it's being described. Hell, in YOUR POST RIGHT HERE you claim that "THE MEDIA" has knowingly mislead us poor sheep.

Instead you believe the "fat arguments" are enough to suppress the "non fat" arguments and blatantly ignore it?

Yep. Ask yourself this question:

If you were in the store and saw on the front of the Weekly World News that a cure for cancer had been discovered, would you get excited?

Before it can be about truth, it has to be about credibility.




[edit on 3-3-2007 by zren]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Maybe you can explain if it only took 19 poeple why would the government need 200.

Because according to theories that involve 200+ operatives there is no luck, laziness, or negligence involved. It's all pure-d evil planning executed to perfection.

If indeed 19 extremists pulled off 9/11, it's because they were lucky as hell...and you know what they say: sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
Sure, 200 agencies and individuals may have been involved; I know most of the NY fire departments were involved, but that does not mean any one of them knew what was actually happening.

I absolutely agree. I think the concept of a "corrupt fireman" is about the funniest damn thing I've ever heard.

But go to Google and enter this: FDNY 9/11 Silverstein

Then read for a half hour.

If, in that time, you find less than FOUR independent references to a member of the FDNY as a "9/11 Insider", I will admit that I've overstated my case and that the Truth Movement is actually a streamlined torpedo of proveable facts.

Originally posted by nick7261
So when you have a group of people who have reasons to hide their own incompetence, or the incompetence of their connected frieds, it's not a far stretch to imagine that willful and complicit acts might also be covered up in the process. In other words, not a single person in Washington D.C. benefits by exposing any substantial failings of government organizations re 9/11.

Agreed nick, AGREED!!

This is so vital to what I'm saying and the Truth Movement needs to understand and embrace this concept:

INCOMPETENCE DOES NOT EQUAL CONSPIRACY.

A couple years ago I didn't lock my car. It was an old piece of junk and I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to steal it. I was wrong. I was dumbfounded when it was gone...not particularly disappointed...but genuinely surprised that my negligence had led to this.

Did I orchestrate insurance fraud in order to get a new car?

No.

Would it be easy to imply that I did?

Sure. God bless internet forums...anybody can imply ANYTHING.


Here's my point: Taking advantage of a disaster is POLITICS 101...simply because someone gains something from 9/11 does not mean that they had a hand in CAUSING it.

This is faulty logic that is RAMPANT in the Truth Movement. Look at your post nick...you went there yourself with talk of the Attorney General.

Originally posted by sesshin
Essedarius you need to have the Port Authority on your list because many of them would have had to been complicit as well.

Thanks sesshin, I haven't heard that one.

How do they fit in?

Originally posted by Vitchilo
There a concept you need to understand, and that is DENIAL of certains things you cannot accept to live with it or just pure control freaks. Those people exists, and they are at the top echelons. Wake up.

Most of the Truth Movement is not even based on brainwashing or ignorance.

No joke, read it.

It's based on the "fact" that 200 or so people with intimate knowledge of the 9/11 operation are EVIL...like HITLER evil...like "3,000 people dead but I increase my net worth by FIVE PERCENT?!?? YOU BET!" kind of evil.

I know people like that exist. I also know they are far outnumbered by people who are DISGUSTED by them and would be happy to blow the lid off of their EVIL plans.

Let's talk about THE MEDIA for example. I'm sick and tired of hearing about the cover-up pulled by "the media" and how "they" are the brainwashing arm of the government.

Please.

There is not one single news station in America that would not sell their soul to Ted Turner for the chance to scoop a legitimate 9/11 conspiracy.

Not one.

It is genuinely and truly ABSURD to think otherwise.

Originally posted by sp00n1
Hey essedarius,

How'd the Nazis keep the Holocaust secret? Unless you're on of those people that say it didnt happen?

No, I think Holocaust deniers have even less regard for common logic than hardcore 9/11ers...and that's saying something.

(If you want to attack me for something though, go start a thread with one of these tidbits: I'm Christian. I don't get along very well with John Lear. I'm a Seattle Supersonics fan. If those don't work for you, let me know...I'm sure we can find something.)

How'd they keep thousand of people quiet about killing millions of innocent people?...How'd they keep the rest of the world from finding out?

Are you serious?

The Nuremberg Trials...24 men tried for their roles in the Holocaust...from Nazi officials to newspaper executives.

If a large number of people execute an EVIL plan...they get found out.
I believe that...it's inevitable.

Apologies for the successive posts...

I didn't get to check in over the weekend, and I wanted to reply to everyone...

Go do some more research, we wouldnt even need to give you lazy # the
links to all the vids we are talking about if you had done proper investgation.
Go on freaking youtube.com and video.google.com and enter 9/11 as the
search query.

www.youtube.com... David Ray Griffin (MSNBC)
www.youtube.com... BBC (Griffin/Shayler)
www.youtube.com... Griffin 9/11 Report Analysis)

www.youtube.com... Kevin Barrett and Pattrick Farrel (Wisconsin University Teachers)
www.youtube.com... Kevin Barrett (CNN)
www.youtube.com... Kevin Barrett (Fox) (3 parts, link=part1)
www.youtube.com... Kevin Barret (Fox)
www.youtube.com... Kevin Barrett (CNN - This is a must see!)

www.youtube.com... Steven Jones (MSNBC)
www.youtube.com... Steven Jones (MSNBC - Refusing to show WTC7 collapse)
www.youtube.com... Steven Jones (Channel 2 News)
www.youtube.com... Steven Jones (C-SPAN)

www.youtube.com... Alex Jones (C-SPAN)
www.youtube.com... Lt.Col. Bowman (C-SPAN)

www.youtube.com... (firemen discussion)
www.youtube.com... (unusual powerdowns prior to 9/11)

video.google.com... 9/11 Mysteries - Must see (period)
video.google.com... David Shayler former MI5 Agent

[edit]
Forgot: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Who Killed John O'Neill (Dutch subs)
Who Killed John O'Neill (Eng, no subs)



And, i am sorry man but if you (and others) can still deny the government
involvement after reviewing these video's together with the hordes of websites
scatted over the internet in probably every language ever conceived on the
planet, you are either too ignorant, just do not want to see or the western
propaganda has damaged your brains to a point where the least you need
to believe what is going on here is by having Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and others
under oath on television stating they have done it. And even then you are
going to believe it was 'just a sick joke' that they told it on tv.


[edit on 5-3-2007 by zren]

Originally posted by zren
Go do some more research, we wouldnt even need to give you lazy # the
links to all the vids we are talking about if you had done proper investgation.

Do you really think I haven't looked at most of that stuff?

How do you think I made the chart in my first post?

I've endured approximately 20 hours more of it than the average American would, and I've come to the conclusion that the web of "truth" has gotten so tangled that people like yourself can no longer see the forest for all the trees.

Seriously, zren, your last post is a PERFECT example. That is how you're going to "win the war" for 9/11 truth? That's your gameplan?

I would think that you would formulate a chart to juxtapose mine, one that clearly traces a plausible line of knowledge through the 9/11 Operation, and details a coherent theory that reconciles the massive "Risk / Benefit" gap which confuses most casual CT observers.

But instead you choose this highly successful angle:

Call me a lazy [expletive] and then pinch off a 15 hyperlink loaf onto my screen.

Brilliant.

Good luck with that.

(Take a moment now too to diagnose the absolute rage you feel in your chest right now. That's there because I was so CONDESCENDING to you just now. EVERYONE reacts that way to condescension. Please learn from that.)