Masons view on 9-11

I have listed several quotations of your beloved Mr. Pike, where he most certainly points toward the Kabalah as being the true source of Masonic symbolisms, tenets, and teachings. He did not say it was the Kabalah that was incomplete. He specifically stated that it was the Bible that is incomplete in expressing “.the religious science of the Hebrews.” If there is another quotation you have in mind, please give the quotation in parentheses, and page number if you don’t mind. Without this, I can only accept what you have stated as a personal opinion and not a fact. I am also quite interested in seeing any statements by Pike in which he supposedly placed such value on the Bible as you have indicated. So far, the only thing I have seen is his admission that the Holy Bible is only one of several “VSL’s” that Masonry recognizes. The Grand Lodge of Indiana even states that the candidate can have any “VSL” he wants on the altar.

Masons say that Freemasonry allows its members to believe in the God of their understanding. There is no intention of devaluing Christ in any way.

This statement is false. There most certainly is a devaluation of Christ. I experienced precisely what is meant by “non-sectarian” when I was told explicitly that I was not to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Not only is this a devaluing of Christ, by casting His name aside at the personal whims of pagans who are Masons, it also constitutes and out and out rejection of Him.

Masons say that Freemasonry is not a sectarian religion therefore is not in the business of promoting any one religion.

Sure it is. It’s in the business of promoting its own god (GAOTU), it’s own plan of salvation; and it even engages in its own regeneration ceremony. Actually. Freemasonry is even more flexible on the issue of belief than you have stated. Your own monitor states, "The person who desires to be made a Mason must be a man, believing in the existence of a Supreme Being, . .” This is not a requirement to believe in a god. It is only a requirement to believe that some sort of a supreme being exists out there in space somewhere.

Masons say that The Great White Judgment will not only judge those who have accepted Christ but will also issue rewards.

You might want to consult a good study Bible on that issue, or try locating a good commentary on the Book of Revelation such as ‘Be Victorious’ by Warren W. Wiersbe. Here is what he teaches us on the matter of the Great White Throne Judgment: “There shall be a second resurrection, and the unsaved will be raised and will stand before God’s judgment. Do not confuse this judgment at the white throne with the Judgment Seat of Christ, where believers will have their works judged and rewarded. At this judgment, there will be only unbelievers, and there will be no rewards. The Judge is Jesus Christ, for the Father has committed all judgment to Him. These lost sinners rejected Christ in life; now they must be judged by Him and face eternal death. . . Jesus Christ will judge these unsaved people on the basis of what is written “in the books”. What books? For one thing, God’s Word will be there. ‘The Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day’. (John 12:48) Every sinner will be held accountable for the truth he or she has heard in this life. There will also be a book containing the works of the sinners being judged, though this does not suggest that a person can do good works sufficient to enter heaven. “ . .Why then, will Jesus Christ consider the works, good and
bad, of the people before the white throne? To determine the degree of punishment they will endure in
hell. All of these people will be cast into hell. Their personal rejection of Jesus Christ has already
determined their destiny. But Jesus Christ is a righteous Judge, and He will assign each sinner
the place that he deserves. Each lost sinner will receive just what is due him, and none will be able to
argue with the Lord or question His decision.”

Masons say that And Freemasonry does not promise anyone a place in heaven for their good deeds. We say that we "hope" for salvation and heaven

About the Hiramic Legend, By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution.

Further, in Masonic burial services, it is stated in ritual, as a given, that the deceased brother is in heaven. And this does not matter if the deceased had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior or not.

Well lets hear what you have to say about this masons.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Okay I'am a joke lets debate what I put up just before you replied. I could careless what the other anti's think. This is what I think. So lets debate what I posted just before your comment.

Forget it, troll.

Various people have tried to nail you down to discussing one particular facet of this topic, but you do the usual straw man/misrepresentation/switching topics thing, and now YOU want US to conduct the thread according to your rules? Bwahahahaha!!

I responded to the topic of Freemasonry vs cult characteristics in the thread that was (by name at least) dedicated to it. Read my answers there.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Roark]

What's the matter? You haven't debated crap son. It look like it's you and me now. Bring it! You can't defend against this stuff I posted. I noticed you have been gone for a while. Checking to see if I copied and pasted without giving sources? The last two posts have been written by only me and how I feel. So come one it's you and me lets dance. The only thing you have done for the past 4 or 5 pages is drop insults. I admit I dropped a few but have stopped. You? nope.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Okay I'am a joke lets debate what I put up just before you replied. I could careless what the other anti's think. This is what I think. So lets debate what I posted just before your comment.

Indeed you are a joke. Those "characteristics of a cult" .... right, it practically means that any one who is not Christian is an occultist!

Get over you self, and your religion.

Civilization is known to be over 6,000 years old .. your religion is a mere 2 thousand years old.. your holidays are pagan, your rituals barrowed from pagans, your stories ripped off from older pagan religions.

Now were on to pagan holidays. Um okay. Read my last three posts. Masons say that First let me make one thing clear. Albert Pike's books and articles
have never been accepted as official by the Grand Lodges of America

The Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine has never been accepted as official by the Grand Lodges of America either. What’s your point?

Besides, the Grand Lodges don’t have to put their stamp of approval on it. It is an official document of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, said Supreme Council of which authorized Pike to write ‘Morals and Dogma. .’ I am most anxious for you to make things clear. When are you going to start?

Freemason like to say His works are seldom read by modern day Masons

That’s only because they are no longer being published. However, the fact of the matter is that a resolution was passed upon favorably by the Supreme Council to raise initiation fee for SRSJ by $5.00, in order to cover the cost of putting a copy of ‘Morals and Dogma’ into the hands of every Scottish Rite initiate within the jurisdiction, once it was published. Further, it was resolved that before a candidate could proceed to the next set of degrees, he had to prove a suitable understanding of what Pike had written in ‘M&D’ about the set of degrees he had just been initiated in.

Masons say Many Masons have discounted most of his writings as irrevelant and outdated

Actually, it is more a matter of many Masons simply trying to distance themselves from him. Pike served as Grand Commander of SRSJ for 32 years. About Pike, the SRSJ website tells us: “During these 32 years, he wrote and compiled many books and became familiar with numerous languages, among them Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit. He is recognized as a great Masonic scholar, philosopher, and historian. He used his vast talents to research and rewrite the Rituals of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite.”

If you are claiming that his writings are irrelevant, you must necessarily include his rewriting of the Scottish Rite rituals, upon which ‘Morals and Dogma’ is based.


Masons say Pike was somewhat of a genius and had a command of the English language that
far exceeds those of most Masons of his day as well as ours.

I dare say that must be the reason so many men in the lodge who calls themselves Christians are having such a difficult time understanding what Masonic ritual is actually teaching. After all, the first three degrees of blue lodge Masonry are the first three degrees of both York Rite and Scottish Rite, and we already know that Pike rewrote the degrees of Scottish Rite, . . . . . . .

Masons say that He writes in very long sentences, and the context can be easily lost if one does
not read his writings carefully.

But he was never clearer than when he said, “. .all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols.

Regarding your insistence that Pike held the Bible in high regard: I have already covered this in detail in a previous post. Because you continue to be in denial on this issue, is no reason that all the readers have to be subjected to a continual repeating of previously quoted statements.

Seems as though you were somewhat supportive of Pike when you were trying to claim that he held the Bible in high regard. But now that things are kinda falling apart in that area, one would almost get the feeling that you're more inclined toward trying to distance yourself from him.

Not sure were everyone wants to start but I will let you pick

Andy ..

You are right in one point.

Masons are not told, and do not as a group worship Christ.

We worship God. Not Jesus, we base most of the stories and lessons from the Old Testimant. Not the New. We are not Christian. We are not Satanic. We do not need to be Christian, we do not need to base our beliefs to fit your needs. People are allowed to believe what they feel inside them selves... if they want to be Christian go ahead.. if you want to be agnostic go ahead.. if you want to be Pagan go ahead.. as long as you recognize one God.

I know that is most likely to open minded and fair for you.. to free thinking and allowing people to believe what they feel spiritually true.

I believe in God. What my beliefs are, are my own and no ones business. Not even yours, even though you feel the need to make it so.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
What's the matter? You haven't debated crap son. It look like it's you and me now. Bring it! You can't defend against this stuff I posted. I noticed you have been gone for a while. Checking to see if I copied and pasted without giving sources? The last two posts have been written by only me and how I feel. So come one it's you and me lets dance.

The only thing you have done for the past 4 or 5 pages is drop insults. I admit I dropped a few but have stopped. You? nope.

All I've done for 4-5 pages is waste my time with a troll.

Nobody can debate with a troll, because trolls aren't interested in debate. Masonic Light exposed several of your lies, and you still won't admit it. Why should I "dance" with a bloke who's going to change the subject in his very next post???

I'm done here.

It would appear you simply cannot grasp the words written by Pike or Hall or any other Masonic writer...

You cannot read a word and get a meaning.

You cannot read a sentanc and get the meaning either.

You cannot read two sentances 8 sentances apart and get the meaning.

You have to read the words, connect the words, connect the sentances, sometimes connect chapters or paragraphs or mayb article.. to get the MEANING behind words spoke. What you see as "satanic" is in fact your lacking ability to comprehend a written language.

And yes, Christian holidays are Pagan, you cannot deny that. Though you would say December 25th had nothing to do with the solstice. And Christmas trees have nothing to do with Germanic tribes worshiping trees and in an effort to appease the tribes Christmas Trees where born. Nothing Pagan at all.

That's exactly right you cut Jesus Christ out of everything. You comprimise your religious beliefs by cutting Christ out of everything. See Roark just when it was getting fun.

As to your 8 sentence stance rockpuck I say this again.


Masons say that He writes in very long sentences, and the context can be easily lost if one does
not read his writings carefully. And that's is just what you stated

But he was never clearer than when he said, “. .all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols.

Regarding your insistence that Pike held the Bible in high regard: I have already covered this in detail in a previous post. Because you continue to be in denial on this issue, is no reason that all the readers have to be subjected to a continual repeating of previously quoted statements.

Seems as though you were somewhat supportive of Pike when you were trying to claim that he held the Bible in high regard. But now that things are kinda falling apart in that area, one would almost get the feeling that you're more inclined toward trying to distance yourself from him.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
That's exactly right you cut Jesus Christ out of everything. You comprimise your religious beliefs by cutting Christ out of everything. See Roark just when it was getting fun.

But I would not consider my self "Christian" by your standards....... so why would I worry about angering Jesus? If I do not belong to your religion, why should I worship your god? I fail to see how thats hard to understand.

Buhdist also do not recognize Jesus nor God.... are they an occultist satanic devil worshiping heathens to?

Such a biggot.

I know why the Christian Church (Body of Christ) has a problem with it, or at least, should have a problem with it.It's pretty clear that on the issues of God, Salvation, and God's Written Word, Freemasonry is far afield from the Christian faith.

"We believe that the Holy Bible is the Word of the living God; true, immutable, steadfast, unchangeable, as its author, the Lord Jehovah; that it was written by holy men of old as they were moved upon and inspired by the Holy Spirit; that it is a lighted lamp to guide the feet of a lost world from the depths of sin and sorrow to the heights of righteousness and glory; an unclouded mirror that reveals the face of a crucified Savior; a plumb line to make straight the life of each individual and community; a sharp two-edged sword to convict of sin and evil doing; a strong cord of love and tenderness to draw the penitent to Christ Jesus; a balm of Gilead, inbreathed by the Holy Spirit, that can heal and quicken each drooping heart; the only true ground of Christian fellowship and unity; the loving call of an infinitely loving God; the solemn warning, the distant thunder of the storm of wrath and retribution that shall overtake the unheeding; a sign post that points to Heaven; a danger signal that warns from Hell; the divine, supreme and eternal tribunal by whose standards all men, nations, creeds, and motives shall be tried."


The above is my churches mission statement rock.

Below is what freemasonry says. And it's what is going to make god angry.

What is Freemasonry's "Volume of Sacred Law"? It doesn't have one. It has several:

LANDMARK TWENTY-FIRST
"It is a Landmark, that a "Book of the Law" shall constitute an indispensable part of the furniture of every Lodge. I say advisedly, a Book of the Law, because it is not absolutely required that every the Old and New Testaments shall be used. The "Book fo the Law" is that volume which, by the religion of the country, is believed to contain the revealed will of the Grand Architect of the universe."

"The Volume of the Sacred Law is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Lodge. In our jurisdiction it is usually the Bible, but any candidate not a Christian may have substituted for it any other volume he considers sacred: e.g., the Old Testament, Koran, Vedas, or Laws of Confucius. In one Lodge in China, thee are three Sacred Books open on the altar at the same time, and the candidate elects one of the three on which to be obligated." ('Indiana Monitor and Freemason's Guide')

"The Bible on the altar is one of Masonry's greatest symbols, for here it is a symbol of all holy books of all faiths. It is the Volume of the Sacred Law in practically all lodges in this country and in others where Christianity predominates. A Lodge wholly Jewish may prefer to use only the Old Testament; in Persia or Turkey the Koran would be used as the V.S.L. of Islam; Brahmans would use the Vedas. In some lodges more than one sacred book is open on the altar, and the candidate may elect the one on which he wishes to be obligated." ('Officers Manual of Lodge Organization and Operation' - Grand Lodge of Nevada)


The Holy Bible, Torah, or Pentateuch - in Freemasonry - is given no more credence than any of the religious writings of the false religions of the world. In Freemasonry, the Holy Bible serves only as a symbol, as is stated in the above quotations

Again you keep leaving. This is stuff that I have written. You got mad at me copying and pasting. Now I'am thinking for myself and you can't hang It's just You and I. It's amazing, I get a one on one with a mason and he can't defend himself with out his brothers.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

Don't be childish.

All I expressed was that debate with you here is fruitless, as you are clearly a troll. So have a little victory dance if you want, but you have been proven to be a liar multiple times already.

If you want a REAL debate, U2U me a shortlist of topics, and we'll take it to the formal debates forum, where your misrepresentations, lies and topic-switching would NOT go by the wayside. We would both be bound by the rules of the forum, and you would be forced to behave like an adult for once.

Up to the challenge?

Well lets rattle this cage some more with some masonic comments.

Masons like to say this about Manly P. Hall.

Manley Hall... Manley Hall - The Lost Keys of Freemasonry is a work often quoted by anti-Masons due to some of the statements made by Hall about the religious nature of Freemasonry. Published in 1923, it was written when Hall was barely 21 years of age - and some thirty one (31) years before he became a Mason! Because of this, it can easily be seen that the book represents merely the personal theories of a non-Mason. Further, Mr. Hall (who passed away in August 1990) was a self-avowed mystic and hardly a "leading authority" of Freemasonry.

I went to amazon.com and looked up a few reviews for the The Loste Keys of Freemasonry.

From Amazon.com: Unsolicited book review

"Manly P. Hall (33rd degree Mason & founder of The Philosophical Research Society) gives us an illuminating, poetically written treatise on the origins of Ancient Masonry and the underlying, meaning of much Masonic Symbolism and practice. Hall's book is a poetic read, that can be consumed in one sitting, yet will be read and refered to many times again. He details some of the spiritual aspects of the hidden meanings of Masonry and the ancient origins from which the modern fraternity receives it's wisdom. The Foreward is by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd degree, K.T. & the illustrations are by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd degree.... Obviously, this man is viewed as a Great, within the ranks of the Fraternity."

Amazon.com book review:

"If you're a Master Mason, you should have read or be reading this book. If you're a new Mason but not a Master yet, you should read this book. It discusses the symbolism of the degrees and a bit of the meaning of each stage of becoming a Master Mason. It puts Freemasonry and the degrees in a light you probably won't get otherwise but every Master Mason should experience. The more you read, the more Masonry will mean to you and the more you'll understand about Masonry."

From amazon.com . . . From the Back Cover
Temple Builder, Craftsmen and Artisans alike, will find much for study and consideration within these pages. Here are keys which, if only read, will leave the reader still in ignorance but, if lived, will change the speculative Masonry of today into the operative Masonry of tomorrow, when each builder, realizing his own place, will see things which he never saw before, not because they were not there, but because he was blind. And there are none so blind as those who will not see

Looks to me like the masons are a firm believer in guy who wrote a book but wasn't a mason.

Since rockpuck took off and roark. Lets here from hobbes, appak, or masonic light. Answer me this.

Where in his later writings did he reject what he'd written in Lost Keys?

What motivated him to do his original research for Lost Keys?

Who were his mentors?

How are we to know when he joined the organization?

Why would he want to join an organization with such beliefs - according to him - unless he wanted to verify his earlier knowledge regarding the secret doctrines and perhaps experience such "seething energies" he believes are available to Masons?

Why was he considered noble enough to join if he held views that were blatantly untrue?

bottom line: you cannot have it both ways.

(And I will be waiting to see your diligence in finding out what in his mind were "the lost keys" of the 33rd degree.)

A very cursory reading of many Masonic authorities shows that the GAOTU, the god of Freemasonry (Jahbulon), is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Sorry I'am stupid when it comes to using the qoute button. Roark wrote" Don't be childish.

All I expressed was that debate with you here is fruitless, as you are clearly a troll. So have a little victory dance if you want, but you have been proven to be a liar multiple times already.

If you want a REAL debate, U2U me a shortlist of topics, and we'll take it to the formal debates forum, where your misrepresentations, lies and topic-switching would NOT go by the wayside. We would both be bound by the rules of the forum, and you would be forced to behave like an adult for once.

Up to the challenge?"

We do this here. I have already listed tons of things to talk about. Instead you insist on dropping names. Come on

Originally posted by Andy Warhol


Notice that this teaching, which is found in the monitors of other Grand Lodges as well, is applied to all Masons who are assembled. It is not restricted to so-called Christian Masons alone, but includes Jewish Masons as well as Masons of other religions that deny the truth

You bigotry is duly noted.

Why do some Christians believe they have a monopoly on God? Could anything be more pitiful or perverted?

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Freemason like to say His works are seldom read by modern day Masons
That’s only because they are no longer being published.

Actually a couple of his previously unavailable writings have just been published by the Scottish Rite Research Society. One is "Albert Pike's Esoterika: Symbolism of the Blue Degrees of Freemasonry" The second one should REALLY interest you Andy. It's "Albert Pike's Lecture on Masonic Symbolism and A Second Lecture on Symbolism: The Omkara and other Ineffable Words" This book was considered by Pike to be a follow-up...or rather a "continuation" of Morals & Dogma. The first book was never printed as Pike decided he didn't want it printed. Very few copies of the second were printed and Pike decided he didn't it reprinted. The Scottish Rite (S.J.) made the decision to make them available.

By the way ANYONE can purchase these books from the Scottish Rite Research Society Bookstore on-line. Seems like they're not trying to "hide" anything, huh?

However, the fact of the matter is that a resolution was passed upon favorably by the Supreme Council to raise initiation fee for SRSJ by $5.00, in order to cover the cost of putting a copy of ‘Morals and Dogma’ into the hands of every Scottish Rite initiate within the jurisdiction, once it was published. Further, it was resolved that before a candidate could proceed to the next set of degrees, he had to prove a suitable understanding of what Pike had written in ‘M&D’ about the set of degrees he had just been initiated in.

Hmmm...must have been a while ago. M&D hasn't been printed since the 70's or 80's as I recall. Also for MANY YEARS the Scottish Rite has been doing one-day degree conferrals (called "reunions") where the candidate receives the 4th through the 32nd Degrees, inclusive, in ONE DAY. Hardly enough time to read M&D...let alone try to understand it, huh?

Actually, it is more a matter of many Masons simply trying to distance themselves from him.

Is that why the S.R. is making his works more readily available these days?

He used his vast talents to research and rewrite the Rituals of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite.”

Sadly, those same rituals have been vastly re-written just a couple of years ago and the "Pike" versions are history. Too bad. I prefer Pike's versions myself.

If you are claiming that his writings are irrelevant, you must necessarily include his rewriting of the Scottish Rite rituals, upon which ‘Morals and Dogma’ is based.

See above.

Regarding your insistence that Pike held the Bible in high regard

Pike was a devout Episcopalian (Anglican). Anglicans do tend to hold the Bible in high regard, as do, I assume ALL Christians.

You've made up your mind Andy. No sense really trying to confuse you with any more facts. But let me add to your previous posts.

Masonry is NOT my religion. Masonry did NOT "save my soul" Masonry does NOT guarantee that I will go to heaven. Period.

If you believe that Masonry teaches otherwise, you're free to think that. But you're sadly mistaken and do not comprehend Freemasonry's teachings at all. Don't feel alone though...there are NUMEROUS Freemasons who don't comprehend it either.

Keep on thumpin'


[edit on 10-3-2007 by Appak]

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Sorry I'am stupid when it comes to using the qoute button. Roark wrote" Don't be childish.

All I expressed was that debate with you here is fruitless, as you are clearly a troll. So have a little victory dance if you want, but you have been proven to be a liar multiple times already.

If you want a REAL debate, U2U me a shortlist of topics, and we'll take it to the formal debates forum, where your misrepresentations, lies and topic-switching would NOT go by the wayside. We would both be bound by the rules of the forum, and you would be forced to behave like an adult for once.

Up to the challenge?"

We do this here. I have already listed tons of things to talk about. Instead you insist on dropping names. Come on

Dropping names? What are you on about?

Dude, I asked you if you'd be up for a debate in the forum dedicated to the purpose. Debating trolls in the Secret Societies forum is pointless, because you can't be held to account for your lies and misrepresentations except by your own conscience.

So I take it that is a "no" to my challenge then?

Just what I expected. Good luck with your proselytising, coward.