Masons view on 9-11

This is the best you can come up with?
Every one is ENTIRELY FREE to REJECT and DISSENT FROM WHATSOEVER herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound.


cuttingedge.org...
Whenever men cannot refute using facts, they invariably turn to slander, usually going after the person's reputation. This ploy has been used over the centuries, sometimes to great effect, to bring a person down through lies when what they have been saying cannot be refuted by words. In fact, I am well aware that it is difficult for a Mason to "defend the indefensible". How can you defend against the words of Masonic authors praising Lucifer, teaching the same beliefs as the old Satanic Mystery Religions of Antiquity, and using the same symbols as do Satanists?

How true this is. It's the exact samething that happens here. You cry about the anti's saying the same thng over and over. As I read through the joke replies you and all your brothers leave this may come as a shock...it's the same garbage. You as well can keep insulting, baiting, and everything else. You have done nothing to prove you are right. These quotes are from your own brothers. Qoutes like,"Every man is a god. The energies of Lucifer." by Manly P. Hall. It's says much about the company you and your brothers keep in secret behind closed doors.

The only defense possible is to either attempt to say such Masonic authors do not represent real Masonic thinking, or to attempt to lie about the character and reputation of the authors who are reporting the truth of what Freemasonry is all about.

Sound much like Appak better luck next time in selling your lies. I love these replies by you guys. My research has revealed the same Anti-Christian goals of the freemasons. Again I love this quote the most.
In fact, I am well aware that it is difficult for a Mason to "defend the indefensible". How can you defend against the words of Masonic authors praising Lucifer, teaching the same beliefs as the old Satanic Mystery Religions of Antiquity, and using the same symbols as do Satanists?

Real nice try masons

*Yawns*


Another conventional, boring, typical, anti-Mason VS pro-Mason argument.

Uhh, yeah thanks for the contribution, Tamahu. We're not terribly conversant in your kind of occult minutae, mate, (which quite often doesn't even belong here), so please have a little patience while we continue with the forum topic.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
This is the best you can come up with?
Every one is ENTIRELY FREE to REJECT and DISSENT FROM WHATSOEVER herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound.

This is the difference between Freemasonry and Fundamentalism. Your literature is the "Word of God", and anyone who disagrees with it is pretty much benighted, accursed or damned.

A Masonic author is only ever offering his opinion (learned or unlearned, whatever the case may be). He can't speak for the masses. We don't have a creed or Articles of Religion.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Originally posted by Andy Warholcuttingedge.org...
Whenever men cannot refute using facts, they invariably turn to slander, usually going after the person's reputation. This ploy has been used over the centuries, sometimes to great effect, to bring a person down through lies when what they have been saying cannot be refuted by words. In fact, I am well aware that it is difficult for a Mason to "defend the indefensible".

this, coming from the guy who brought us "Rockpuke". Grow up and address your hypocrisy before you start pronouncing on things like slander.

Originally posted by Andy WarholHow can you defend against the words of Masonic authors praising Lucifer, teaching the same beliefs as the old Satanic Mystery Religions of Antiquity, and using the same symbols as do Satanists?

Are you talking about the Taxil hoax?

Are you THAT far behind everyone else?

Originally posted by Andy WarholHow true this is. It's the exact samething that happens here. You cry about the anti's saying the same thng over and over. As I read through the joke replies you and all your brothers leave this may come as a shock...it's the same garbage.

There's nothing to "cry" about, although I realise you use the word simply to belittle. The reason most of the antis say the same thing over and over is simply that they buy into the same books / conspiracy sites / videos.

Entrepreneurs like William Schnoebelen (who has variously proclaimed himself a witch, Wiccan, vampire, Mason, AND "born again") take advantage of people who are desperate to believe that the world is more exciting than it is, that there are reptilian shapeshifters striving against "free-thinkers", and that there are armies of mindless Freemasons, Jesuits, and Knights of Columbus doing supernatural battle with each other and other Dungeons & Dragons kinda nonsense.

Likewise, some church groups look at the trappings of fraternities like Freemasonry and see things like altars, rituals, and references to God, and immediately come to the conclusion that Freemasonry “MUST be a religion”! This perceived competition then creates insecurity, and so begins a milder form of the persecution that we have seen so many times throughout history from fundamentalist Religion. Yayyy!

Originally posted by Andy WarholYou as well can keep insulting, baiting, and everything else. You have done nothing to prove you are right.

Once again, hypocrite, nobody’s doing any namecalling except you (“rockpuke”? For crying out loud…). Grow up.

Appak, myself, and others have attempted to present the facts as we see them. I assume that you think you are doing the same. Many of your “facts” have been demonstrably disproven in this thread alone. Can you do likewise? You’ve been forced to resort to childish mockery, ad hominem arguments, and namecalling, so I likewise assume that the answer is a resounding “no”.

Originally posted by Andy WarholThese quotes are from your own brothers. Qoutes like,"Every man is a god. The energies of Lucifer." by Manly P. Hall. It's says much about the company you and your brothers keep in secret behind closed doors.

Are you once again providing an incorrect referent to the Taxil hoax? How embarrassed you will be when the penny drops…

Originally posted by Andy WarholThe only defense possible is to either attempt to say such Masonic authors do not represent real Masonic thinking, or to attempt to lie about the character and reputation of the authors who are reporting the truth of what Freemasonry is all about.

Dude, they’re all opinions. Some I agree with, some I don’t. I won’t even bother responding to your deliberate misquotes or references to [I]known[/I] hoaxes

Originally posted by Andy WarholSound much like Appak better luck next time in selling your lies.

I love these replies by you guys. My research has revealed the same Anti-Christian goals of the freemasons. Again I love this quote the most.
In fact, I am well aware that it is difficult for a Mason to "defend the indefensible". How can you defend against the words of Masonic authors praising Lucifer, teaching the same beliefs as the old Satanic Mystery Religions of Antiquity, and using the same symbols as do Satanists?

Real nice try masons

You research is a joke, which is should be obvious to ANYONE (Mason, non-Mason or serious anti-Mason) who has actually done any.

Anti-Christian goals from an organisation composed predominantly of Christians?

Once again I predict that you are going to be very, VERY embarrassed about this period of your life when deeper understanding finally takes hold.

Originally posted by Roark
Uhh, yeah thanks for the contribution, Tamahu. We're not terribly conversant in your kind of occult minutae, mate, (which quite often doesn't even belong here), so please have a little patience while we continue with the forum topic.

Really, doesn't this same ol' back-and-forth over-and-over bickering get old?

If anything, the said "occult minutae" might actually get people to look at many important things that are always over-looked.

There's hardly ever anything new here from either side of the black-and-white-thinking pro-Masons VS anti-Masons(quite a statement, from one who always mentions the White Lodge and Black Lodge, huh? ).

You have done nothing Roark to prove that masonry is good. All you have done is make a complete idiot out of yourself. But please keep commenting it' s good for a laugh or two. The author is speaking about exactly what masonry is, occult, lies, and deception. Look up the term occult and masonry fits well in that definition. Strangers make good bed fellows. And masonry likes to keep the scum of humanity in its ranks. Freemasonry “MUST be a religion”. Freemasonry is religion get that part straight. You keep saying you are backing this and that up with facts. And you are not. All you can do is attack the links and the authors. You can't dissproved squat. You can't even prove that the bible qoutes I posted are not true. Deeper understaning of what? Mason panter to all religions, being hoodwinked is a normal thing, or swearing stupid oaths about cutting a mans throat for telling secrets. Nice try though

cuttingedge.org...
Let us hear Masonic author Manly P. Hall describe this two-dimensional organization of Freemasonry. Masonry is comprised of two distinctly different organizations, one visible and one invisible. Hall describes this two-level organization: [Hall was honored by The Scottish Rite Journal, who called him 'The Illustrious Manly P. Hall' in Sept, 1990, and further called him 'Masonry's Greatest Philosopher', saying "The world is a far better place because of Manly Palmer Hall, and we are better persons for having known him and his work"]. This is what Manly P. Hall said:

" Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']." [Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]

Many well-meaning men are members of this visible society with no knowledge whatsoever of the inner invisible society. In fact, Albert Pike had some things to say about the brethren in the visible society: "Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]

Did you hear these key words from Pike? Masonry is a religion after all, after the order of the Satanic Mysteries, the equally Satanic Hermetic Philosophy, and Alchemy! Masonry conceals its secrets from the brethren in the outer visible society, no matter their rank; only the Elect in the inner invisible society ever know the truth. The poor brethren in the visible society are spoon-fed "false explanations and misinterpretations" of its symbols" -- for what reason? -- those poor guys in the visible society "deserve only to be mislead".

So go ahead and mislead a new canidate, panter to all religions, and bow to pagan gods. You are by far a classless act. Better luck next time with that classic "masonic spin"

Tamahu this is the most fun I have had in a long time. This Roark person can't defend himself to save freemasonry. It's all in the pro masonic authors own words what the brotherhood of man is really about. It drives these guys nuts.

This is exactly the kind of thing, Roark, I'm talking about here.


For example, Andy Warhol can't even tell the difference between contemporary Masonry and the original Gnosis intended by the founders of FreeMasonry.

"Theology and Masonry have – each in its own manner – continued the teachings of the Alchemists, and fortunate is the Mason or the priest who spiritually understands that which he teaches. But of such true disciples there are only few. The systems in which the old truths have been embodied are still in existence, but the cold hands of Sophistry and Materialism have been laid upon the outward forms, and from the interior the spirit has fled. Doctors and clergymen see only the outward form, and not the hidden mystery that called these forms into existence. The key to the inner sanctuary has been lost by those that were entrusted with its keeping, and the true password has not been rediscovered by the followers of Hiram Abiff." - Franz Hartmann

[edit on 7-3-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Appak


Andy, you are using a book that was only the OPINION of a Scottish Rite Mason

And in this regard it wasn't even his opinion. Pike was merely explaining what some of the early Gnostic sects taught: nowhere did he say that he agreed with them.

In fact, from the Pike versions of the Scottish Rite ritual, especially the 18th and 32nd degrees, we know that he didn't. Pike believed that Gnosticism, although containing some truths, was corrupted by dualism. Pike believed the ancient pre-Hindu Vedic faith to be the most pure and monotheistic, not Christian Gnosticism.

freemasonrywatch.org...

This is a little information on how freemasons mainly answer. You can look for yourself but Roark fits well in this. As do Appak, and Masonic light. Their masonic spin is top notch, top notch. And yes thes guys are so perdictable.



Masons have nearly predictable means and methods, often less than savory. Whether it's because they're pushing their ideas:
* In order to sell books.
* Rampant paranoia or hate.
* Their altered belief system (they think it will get them standing before the "Great White Throne" of the "Great Architect of the Universe" in the "Great White Lodge of Freemasonry" of Sirius, which they believe they will go to when they die if their masonic "work" has not been "slip-shod").
* Their In-Group World View has been so much altered that for practical purposes of debate they have diminished capacity, i.e. they have become insane.


Masons use many different tactics to support their position. To further their goals, they'll use books published by 'vanity' publishers who may be Masonic as well. They will claim that "Pro" writings about Masons or Masonry cannot be published by 'legitimate' publishers because they're all "Anti"-Masonically-controlled. (In reality, it's because their tracts fail to meet the 'standards' of research required by traditional publishers - but often Masonic Propaganda and Dissembling Specialists fails to let truth enter the discussion). In addition, there are "Open Houses" and "Parades" held in the United States each year gathering a small group of Masons. Web pages, sometimes thinly disguised as information about "Difficult Questions about Freemasonry", and postings to various online venues add to their constant stream of misinformation.

In this section, we talk about those who're visible in their Masonic activities (i.e., not hiding behind some on-line identity which changes frequently). We also provide a review of some internal inconsistencies in their arguments and offer some of our thoughts on responding to 'Masonic Disinformation Propagandists'.

The repertoire of techniques is varied but most involve simple deceit. Common tactics are listed below.

Change the Subject Guilt by Association
Using Different Standards If You Were ...
Refuse to Answer Outright Lies
Oft-Repeated Falsehoods Quibble over Semantics
Faulty Logic Assumptive Positions
Prove It! Straw Man
Behave More Like a Christian or a Non "Stupid Athiest"


Change the Subject: In our daily lives, we generally experience a fairly straight path when we discuss things with others. We're not experienced with those who would deliberately mislead or misdirect. Thus, when this tactic of deceit is used, Non -Masons are caught off-guard. Assuming that the person with whom they're dealing has the same degree of honesty and integrity as themselves, it's a surprise to find that they're being led around in circles.

Guilt by Association: Those defending Masons and Masonry will point out human foibles or errors an individual critic of Masonry may have made as if somehow once a man becomes a "Anti" (as masons deceptively and derisively term those who question Masonic Disinformation tactics) , he loses all right to individual foibles . Because one person does a wrong, the argument goes, "Anti"-Masons are all guilty of it. What those Masonic Dissemblers fail to acknowledge is that there were also those with whom they have been associated in the past engaged in similar wrongs.

Using Different Standards: Masons will use any convenient argument to support their position. Despite the passage of decades (or even centuries), they'll readily apply 1850s or 1770s standards to those in the 1990s! Yes George Washington owned slaves and Albert Pike and Nathan Forest were in the KKK, but then so did everybody else ? Then obviously - so the argument goes - he was a very good Mason! It's convenient to use the political correctness of today to condemn critics of Masonry by branding them "Haters" as practiced professional dissemblers. Don't fall for this sometimes overlooked ploy.

"If You Were....": This presumptive position often taken creates an untenable position - which is exactly the way the Masonic Disinformation Propagandist wishes it. "If you were to hit your wife...." is not far from the question "When did you stop beating your wife?". Such innuendo should be recognized for what it is.

Refuse To Answer: In an attempt to understand the motives of "hatred", the Masonic supporter will often ask, "Why do you feel this way?" or "What religion do you belong to?", or "You're a Stupid Athiest aren't you?" hoping that the answers will somehow provide enlightenment into the rationale for the position the "Anti"-Mason is taking. As might be expected, those Masons who criticize those who want to 'tear down the walls of secrecy' they see in Masonry are often the most secretive themselves. Certainly, there's the exception who will even boast about certain parts of their lives, almost inviting the onlooker to become involved. In reality, though, they've done nothing more than to set a trap which they'll later use against others. "Why I even had some "Anti"-Mason show up at my door the other night. He had tracked me down and...."

Outright Lies: In our section on the categories of Masonic disinformation and propagansa activity, we identify several outright lies. This, however, does not stop them from being spread again and again.

Oft-Repeated Falsehoods: Sometimes when a charge is made, it's difficult to determine whether it's true or not. "Not all of the police who're 'on the take' in London are Masons." is an example seen recently. Of course, this presumes that the one making the statement knows not only the Masonic membership status of every London police officer but also all of those who engage in illegal activities. It should be clear to even the most cursory observer how foolish this is - but to those who use this tactic, it makes perfect sense. Further, perpetuation of such foolishness will surely occur at some later time ("I read somewhere that all of the critics of Freemasonry....").

Quibbling Over Semantics: This is a ploy of some who have engaged in these debates for a long period of time. One Masonic Disinformation Specialist from Maine, USA has frequently argued that he's not an "Anti" Mason Critic but rather "Anti" Mason Critical !!! and furthers this by saying that he specifically opposes the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. When called an Masonic Propagandist and Disinformation Specialist , he'll protest loudly. In reality it's merely a technique he uses in order to give him further opportunity to expound his hatred (and also encourage the Non-Mason (who Masons derisively refer to as the "Profane" and "Cowans") to think that if only the question of language could be resolved, this person would change his position).

Faulty Logic: We see it often in the arguments which start with the wrong premise. For example: "All eggs are white. This round object is white and has all the properties of an egg. Therefore, this must be an egg." Wrong. You've forgotten (or perhaps don't know) that eggs come in brown also. It is an easy trap to fall into.

Assumptive Positions: One of the most common tactics used against those who critize Masonic Propagada and Disinformation Specialists is designed to provoke a response which ignores the false premise. "If a "Cowan" did (thus and so), what would you do?" Of course, any time a "Profane" violates a law, rule, or trust, we are all the lesser for it - and, being human, that sometimes happens. This argument, however, often makes wild and fanciful suppositions in order to provoke the reader/listener into drawing the conclusion that such things did/do indeed happen - and perhaps regularly.

"Prove It!": The reality is that negatives can rarely be proven but detractors ignore this, always looking for some other avenue to exploit. "Post all of the degree work right here and we'll see what it says...." goes a common challenge. Of course, regardless of what was posted, the Masonic Disinformation Specialist will find some fault, even if it's a spelling error - and then will proceed to make some particular issue out of that. ("See? Those stupid Cowans. They can't even spell!")

Straw Man: One very common tactic used by Masonic Disinformation and Propaganda Specialists is to put forth a 'Straw Man': one who claims to have 'seen the darkness' and now can explain to the world from the 'inside perspective' the many supposed problems with those who criticize Masons and Masonry. Most of these are readily seen as a total fraud (the supposed Mason who's now a 'minister' but is apparently too embarrassed to reveal his denominational affiliation or the person who claims to be a 'high ranking Church Official' who'll reveal all). To the unknowing, however, these pretenders are difficult to discern and can be very persuasive.

Behave More Like a Christian or a Non "Stupid Athiest": We've always found it ironic that those who believe Masonry to be so very right would use this argument. It seems, though, that whenever a Non-Mason has been goaded enough and lashes out at his tormentor, you frequently see the retort "That's not very Christian Behavior is it?", or "You're a Stupid Athiest aren't you?". Strange that in one breath they want us to abandon Christianity or our right not to "believe" but in the next, they remind us of the standards we set for ourselves and encourage us to act in accordance with them. Masonic Disinformation and Dissembling is pretty strange....

It's frustrating. A person who tries to follow the tenets of tolerance and truth assumes the best about his accuser and will believe that a clear presentation of facts will be sufficient to explain things. As you'll see as you question Masonry, however, not everything is what it seems - and if you're willing not to believe the Masonic rhetoric without proof from them, we trust that you'll find the evidence we provide - even more convincing.

Good luck and don't give up. Remember trained, experienced, Masonic disinformation, propaganda, dissembling, and hate specialists are clever. Be on your "due guard".

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
My research has revealed the same Anti-Christian goals of the freemasons.

We aren't anti-Christian, just anti-idiot.

I couldn't care less if someone is a Christian or not: each to his own, whatever gets you through the day.

But when you start piping up some BS about you being superior to everyone else because you have the best invisible friend, then yeah, you shouldn't be too surprised when you get your feelings hurt.

freemasonrywatch.org...

And even more on how they like to change the subject.

A Comprehensive Listing of Masonic "Divert the Discourse" Gambits









1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure or Lodge official. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit.

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such "arguable rumors". If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a "wild rumor" which can have no basis in fact.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to -the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough "jargon" and "minutiae" to illustrate you are "one who knows", and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the "high road" and "confess" with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, "just isn't so." Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for "coming clean" and "owning up" to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can "argue" with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to criticism".

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed.

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or other threats.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.

You are just to cool Masonic Light. We aren't anti-Christian, just anti-idiot
And yes you are anti christian its been proven.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
You have done nothing Roark to prove that masonry is good.

Good? Well, I personally think it's good, but all I'm attempting to demonstrate here is that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you are simply regurgitating the words of other anti-Masons who have come before you. Hence the massive cut n' paste, as well as your inability to distinguish hoax from history. You're making the same mistakes as every other armchair dabbler who scratches the surface, finds two 2's, and then brilliantly comes up with an answer of 5. I can almost see the little light bulb above your head...

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
All you have done is make a complete idiot out of yourself.

Take a letter, Maria. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

You've brought us lots of emoticons, namecalling, and ad-hominem arguments. I think the readers can be the judge of whose idiocy is greater.

Originally posted by Andy WarholThe author is speaking about exactly what masonry is, occult, lies, and deception. Look up the term occult and masonry fits well in that definition.

Strangers make good bed fellows.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist. Occult simply means "hidden". Freemasonry CAN contain occult elements for those who wish to pursue its mysteries, but for many it is simply a social club and charity.

You would do well to learn more about what you are attempting to discuss from someone more well-versed in the subject, possibly Tamahu.

Originally posted by Andy WarholAnd masonry likes to keep the scum of humanity in its ranks.

Like Isaac Newton? George Washington?

Truly scum... Am I the one making an idiot out of myself, or are you?

Originally posted by Andy WarholSo go ahead and mislead a new canidate, panter to all religions, and bow to pagan gods. You are by far a classless act. Better luck next time with that classic "masonic spin"

If you think I am spending all this time acting in the role of a "disinfo agent", then you are seriously mistaken. I'm a normal guy with a life, a job, a girlfriend, and (it so happens) membership in a fraternity. Your elaborately-constructed fantasy world of cloak-and-dagger operations, and vast shadowy organisations with nefarious goals is simply a by-product of close-minded paranoia, religious fundamentalism, and really bad research.

Anyway, bring on the emoticons and call everything I post "spin", like you have in every other paltry offering you've given the members of ATS.

You're a funny guy, Andy, but I'm mildly concerned that you're actually taking yourself and your quest seriously. Do yourself a favour - ditch the dogma, and try to think for yourself.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
freemasonrywatch.org...

By posting a link to FMW, you've done more to damage your already-teetering credibility than anything I could've said.

Have a good one, mate. Fight the good... errr... fight.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol


A Comprehensive Listing of Masonic "Divert the Discourse" Gambits

OK, let's examine that claim, and see who the shoe really fits.

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

Like maybe one who thinks he's on some kind of weird mission from God to convert all us heathens?

2. Become incredulous and indignant.

Like you've done a million times when asked to prove your claims aboutt Mazzini, Pike, etc.?

3. Create rumor mongers.

You mean like parading ridiculous website quotes and pretending the stuff they say is real?

4. Use a straw man.

Like you keep doing with Pike and Hall?

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.

Like "Masonic Hitler" and "Rockpuke"?

6. Hit and Run.

Like claiming that it's been proven that Pike was in the KKK and Mazzini in the mafia, but then refusing to comment when the opposite is shown to be the case?

7. Question motives.

Like saying that Masons on ATS are in a conspiracy to disrupt the forum?

8. Invoke authority.

Like endless quotings of Bible verses?

9. Play Dumb.

Like pretending you're absolutely dumbfounded that anyone actually has the gall to stand up to your bullying?

10. Associate opponent charges with old news.

Like endlessly quoting authors who've been dead almost 200 years?

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions.

Like the Bible, even though it's ok to disregard its teachings as long as it promotes the anti-Masonic "cause"?

12. Enigmas have no solution.

Like being unable to offer evidence to substantiate claims?

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic.

Can anyone say "David Bay"? "Freemasonry Watch"?

14. Demand complete solutions.

Like claiming the Bible is the absolute authority on everything, and you're the official interpreter?

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions.

Like claiming some people both are, and are not, Masons?

16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses.

Like pretending something has been proven when it's not true?

17. Change the subject.

Like responding to an inquiry concerning your questionable ability to understand Pike with some story about Hitler?

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents.

Like calling people names?

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs.

Like ignoring the proof that debunks anti-Masonic claims, but then ask me to prove that Mazzini was NOT a Mason?

20. False evidence.

Like posting the Taxil hoax?

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body.

Like calling upon your confederates to assist you in disrupting discussion?

22. Manufacture a new truth.

Like your recent attempt to turn the Ancient Mysteries into satanism?

23. Create bigger distractions.

Like posting all these stupid rules?

I know exactly what I'am talking about. The hamster that was running in the wheel in head is dead. And the light above it is burned out It really is you who is making the pro masonic statments day in and day out. But then again I should really trust someone who is willing to take oaths about cutting a throat. I think many of the readers have much insight to how wrong masonry is. Just keep posting the replies and they will find out.

Spoken like a true liar. Occult simply means "hidden". Freemasonry CAN contain occult elements for those who wish to pursue its mysteries, but for many it is simply a social club and charity.

You keep things secret from the new intiate. You will not talk about certain things with non members. Why? Because you think those club house oaths really mean something. Certain things are kept from the new person until he reaches certain degrees. You may be versed in it, but you can lie to save your life. Pike wrote the purpose is to decieve the new canidate. Next pitiful reply.

Yeah Washington a slave owner. Never thought it was a mistake till he was much older. Real nice.
en.wikipedia.org...

Newton yeah another great man
www.illuminati-news.com...

Keep up the masonic spin. This is great. And yes masonry is really wrong. Tell your girlfriend everything and I mean everything that goes in the lodge. The secret cerimonies everything You can't and you won't because again you actually think those oaths have bearing over your life. I think you need to drop the lambskin apron wipe the fish fry grease off your face, and think for yourself.: It's not my fault you were "hoodwinked into thinking those oaths mean anything outside the lodge.

Yeah masonic light those are the exact ways you masons like to play. Exactly you can't even prove what I post is wrong. When it gets too hot your gone.

You were shown to be wrong about Mazzini AND Pike. What more do you want? Do you want us to prove EVERYTHING you say is wrong? That's a herculean feat, considering that you have the vast "resources" of Freemasonrywatch at your disposal... (in the absence of anything worthwhile).

[edit on 7-3-2007 by Roark]

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
When it gets too hot your gone.

What an absurd statement. Masonic Light has been posting here consistently for years. You've been for a couple of months. You're some kind of new variety of "comedian troll", aren't you...

Originally posted by Roark
You're some kind of new variety of "comedian troll", aren't you...

Roark,

Thanks for the early-morning guffaw! I needed that!