U.S. court upholds same-sex teaching to children

Originally posted by befoiled

Originally posted by carslake
Children have no rights full stop if you do give them rights you will see the end of the family in your time.

Children have the right to be protected the law works fine as it is.

What are you a gay 17 year old grow up.

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Err...no. Fortysomething father of four who doesn't share your version of "family values." I do, however, respect your right to be heard even if you don't give that same respect to others.

Yet again i ask you what do you know of child psychology and social sciences, wheres the psychiatric evaluation from the pilot scheme.

Hey hold on I never told you to shutup, all I'm asking is for you to think. This is debate as far I'm concerned are you sure your not a 17 year old.

Originally posted by carslake
@befoiled and griff questions

Do you have children, if so how many and how old are your children.

No, but my brother and sister do. My brother is a homophobe and it shows in his kids. My sister is not and it also shows with her kids. Either way, my sister's kids are much more emotionally mature than my brother's. My brother's kids are 10 years older than my sister's. It's more than just the homophobe junk, it's everything in life. If you are going to deny knowledge in one area, you're probably going to deny knowledge in other areas as well.

And/Or your sexual orientation please.

Although it is none of your business, yes I'm a 34 year old gay man. But, I don't understand what that has to do with your willingness to keep your children in the dark.

I'm a Toaist, see your even pissing of the eastern philosophy.

If you're going to be a Taoist you should learn to spell it.

You're not making a lot of sense, try to formulate a logical argument without the hysteria, handwringing, NAMBLA accusations, etc...


[edit on 3/6/07 by xmotex]

Try replying to three posters at the same time smart ass.

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Originally posted by carslake
Yet again i ask you what do you know of child psychology and social sciences, wheres the psychiatric evaluation from the pilot scheme.
Hey hold on I never told you to shutup, all I'm asking is for you to think. This is debate as far I'm concerned are you sure your not a 17 year old.

I don't like the manner with which you so casually dismiss me as a parent and I don't like your allegations to me being a member of "NAMBLA," or a "gay 17 year old," or telling another poster to, "give up his kids."

My conversation with you is over.

I think its great. Kids should know that there is diversity in the world, and kids who are gay will definately benefit from this teaching. Gay kids have to sit through heterosexual teachings, in sex ed...just think how gross it is to them. Now the straight kids have to deal with gay sex ed. I LOVE IT! Its part of the world we live in and maybe this will end so much bigotry.

CHRISTIANS...I'm pretty sure your little darlings can handle it. Their own bible talks about all kinds of sex.
Straight sex
gay sex
animal sex Good Book
pediphilia
Masterbation
Incest
Orgies FUN!!
WOW...I need to read this book...it sounds like a good porn.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by carslake
@befoiled and griff questions

Do you have children, if so how many and how old are your children.

No, but my brother and sister do. My brother is a homophobe and it shows in his kids. My sister is not and it also shows with her kids. Either way, my sister's kids are much more emotionally mature than my brother's. My brother's kids are 10 years older than my sister's. It's more than just the homophobe junk, it's everything in life. If you are going to deny knowledge in one area, you're probably going to deny knowledge in other areas as well.

And/Or your sexual orientation please.

Although it is none of your business, yes I'm a 34 year old gay man. But, I don't understand what that has to do with your willingness to keep your children in the dark.

Yeah man all good. Yep I get it I understand your point. Now would it be okay to show a 7 year old massive head trauma caused by a high calibre/powered firearm? With the intention of showing them the misfortune in war?

At 7 little did I know but all I wanted to do was ride my bike, play football, throw sticks in the pond and play fight with my friends. There kids for cryin out loud let them do kids things. Before I became a father I'd raise holy hell and act irresponsible, but when my first child was born I was immediately struck by the responsibilty that was given to me. My life was not my own anymore I want to control and protect my children against lifes misfortunes until they can protect themselves and make well informed decisions of their own.

I resent any Government taking away from me the right to introduce such a thing into their lifes your talking about sex it's not a throw away thing although it is to some people. Do you know what this feels like, to be a father, my life has been damn hard real hard and I may be accused of being too controlling, but I'll never allow other people to make decisions for them not when I know best.

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Originally posted by befoiled

Originally posted by carslake
Yet again i ask you what do you know of child psychology and social sciences, wheres the psychiatric evaluation from the pilot scheme.
Hey hold on I never told you to shutup, all I'm asking is for you to think. This is debate as far I'm concerned are you sure your not a 17 year old.

I don't like the manner with which you so casually dismiss me as a parent and I don't like your allegations to me being a member of "NAMBLA," or a "gay 17 year old," or telling another poster to, "give up his kids."

My conversation with you is over.

Mmm... Okay

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Now would it be okay to show a 7 year old massive head trauma caused by a high calibre/powered firearm? With the intention of showing them the misfortune in war?

You might have a point if we were talking about graphic portrayals of sex acts, however if you read the original article, we're clearly not.

I have to agree with befoiled, this conversation is becoming a waste of time.


[edit on 3/6/07 by xmotex]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
At 7, sex doesn't enter into the concept of relationships. The only thing that is understood is that 2 people (usually mommy and daddy) love each other very much. And yes, there are relationships where daddy and daddy love each other very much. This has nothing to do with sex, it's about showing kids the reality that there are such relationships. Hiding that from them when it's likely to be in plain sight is just silly.

When one of their classmates comes to school and talks about his two dads would you rather that your child be the only one who doesn't understand that there are men who love each other? Just because the parent grew up ignorant is no reason to subject the children to the same abuse. And yes, denying children basic knowledge is abuse.

Good points Rasobasi thats a fine angle you draw there. I know this comes to late but I do apologise if i was insulting, problem with me I wear my heart on my sleeve and nothing gets me more emotive than how children are raised. In my reality your view ranks up there, there is an overriding priority, preserve a childs childhood as long as you can why complicate things for them they'll know in good time what they are.

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Originally posted by xmotex

Now would it be okay to show a 7 year old massive head trauma caused by a high calibre/powered firearm? With the intention of showing them the misfortune in war?

You might have a point if we were talking about graphic portrayals of sex acts, however if you read the original article, we're clearly not.

I have to agree with befoiled, this conversation is becoming a waste of time.


[edit on 3/6/07 by xmotex]

Well if Griff can be obtuse then so can I, pick any controversial subject and be prepared to show it to a child. I only say this because anything outside the norms of childhood is controversial when educating children.

Are you leaving?

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Originally posted by carslake
Well if Griff can be obtuse then so can I, pick any controversial subject and be prepared to show it to a child. I only say this because anything outside the norms of childhood is controversial when educating children.

Are you leaving?

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First of all, learn the definition of obtuse before calling someone that. Second, that is a personal attack and I for one will not take it from you. You are being complained against as I type this.

So, anything outside the norms of childhood is controversial huh? Does that include math, science, reading etc? Those are outside the norms of childhood. But, I'm sure you'll come back with calling me obtuse.

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[edit on 6-3-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

I see no wrong in two men or two women sharing a loving relationship, in fact I do not see anything wrong if there is no love, just sex. What each person wishes to do in the privacy of their own home is fine by me - as long as it is consensual and as long as they are both adults or in the same age group. I don't expect anyone to have an interest in my sex life, my partner excepted, and I don't have any interest in anyone elses.

I am a parent. Do I want my son to know about love. Sure I do. I would like to hope that I teach him through example and I hope that as he grows I will be there to guide him through lifes hurdles. As a parent I consider it my responsibility to do that.

Sex and love in modern society are often treated as two seperate things . As a conscientious parent I expect to know my child well enough to know when he has reached sexual maturity and to be supportive of his sexual choices. To comfort him when his heart is broken for the first time. This is waht growing up is about and it is the role of the parent to help prepare our children for adulthood.

I do not see any necessity for any sex education to be taught prior to puberty, other than health and hygeine, the explanation of what the bodily changes mean etc, I do not think they are emotionally or physically prepared for this information. Unless you are preparing your child for an early sex life, what is the point. I am deeply disturbed by this trend in the US, not because it is about teaching homosexuality but because it is removing the rights of the parent AND the child to explore this at a natural pace.

Yes, some parents are bigotted and predjudice but does this mean that all children and their parents should be effectively brought to book over it. Should they not concentrate on teaching tolerance of all. Why simply tolerance of homosexuals, what about the transgendered or the hermaphropdite? If we're going to confuse the bejesus out of them why not go all out?

Does anyone actually believe that the children of bigotted parents etc are going to go home and not have any notion of tolerance knocked out of them (I don't necessarily mean physically)? Does nobody think that the children won't return to school the next day and tell the child with two Dad's that his parents are an abomination in the eyes of god or freaks or whatever? Having a structured lesson only accentuates difference and identifies the target of prejudice.

Does anyone actually believe that at that age, any child is more influenced by school than they are by their home life?

Surely there are more important lesson that schools should be teaching our children.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Surely there are more important lesson that schools should be teaching our children.

I agree. But, this is NOT about sex ed. This IS about teaching tolerance. And I also agree that tolerance of everything diverse that is legal should be taught. Maybe 7 is too young, maybe not.

This is the problem. When the complaining people think Gay, they think dirty butt-sex. It's the first thing that comes to mind, when no where is this mentioned in this story any more than standard "good Christian" lights out missionary sex is mentioned in any other mom and pop story. It's the depravity of the individual that brings this into the equation.

If all the objectors can think of when they hear of a homosexual relationship is hot man love, then I think they're wearing their subconscious on their sleeve, rather than their heart.



Edit to add:

I'm friends with a gentleman who is in his early seventies who is gay. He's been in a relationship with the same man for 20+ years. At this point I'm pretty sure that their relationship has gone long past the point of sex, and into the realm of love, and companionship. Is it wrong to want love, and companionship, and not have to hide it away from the public?

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Rasobasi420]

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Rasobasi420]

I can contrast this with the recent flip flopping of the teaching of evolution in Kansas schools. The theory of evolution is a product of science. Romantic relationships are not. Pair bonding, yes, but not the devices of romance.

Children before puberty don't have much concept of romance. With their equal disgust of girls, you can't really tell gay boys and straight boys apart. In the years of puberty is when homosexuality should be introduced in education. In this way kids becoming more aware of their sexuality will understand why they seem to be 'different' from everyone else, and that it's not something to be afraid of.

Before puberty however, I feel the exposure in the classroom should be limited to the other "everyone is different and unique" teachings. Like the videos where they go from some American tribesman to an inuit, to a Brit with his bearskin, to some Surman with a plate in her lip, to some punk rock guy that looks like a jar of screws exploded in his face, to paris hilton, etc etc...

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
It is an attack on Christianity, religious rights, and parental rights. It is against my religious beliefs, and is equivalent to teaching them occultic, satinist, and new age practices.

I think it's more a matter of showing children that it's normal and trying to stop some of the ongoing stereotypes. Maybe from your point of view it is an attack ... but that would be your duty as a parent to instill your Christian beliefs to your child and explain to them why you think that it was wrong.

As far as "satinist and new age practices" ... Satanism is a religion and as such should be afforded the same protections as any other religion.

Sorry, but homosexual lifestyle is not normal. It is also a sin just like adultry and sex before marriage is a sin.

Satanism is a religion, I'll grant that. It is also dangerous and deadly not only to satanists, but it's victims also. You do know there are still hard core satanists practice human ritual sacerfices.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
It's better that kids know that now, and understand it, if not accept it, than later when they're in the real world, and are ignorant to the norms of society.

I do have a problem with it being taught as normal when it isn't. I do have a problem with acceptance of it being forced down children's throats especially when the parents do not teach it as acceptable. It then becomes a major conflict of interest. Who is the child to believe? Their parents or the teacher? Who is lying, because someone is. If the parent is, then the parent can no longer be trusted. There will always be conflict between the parent and child from that point forward.

If the teacher is, then the teacher will not be able to teach that child anything. The child will be questioning everything no matter how true it is. The child will not learn anything.

If the child can not decide who is lying, in essence grow up to not trust anyone. They will not trust any one in authority, their peers, their boss, or even their marriage partner if they ever decide to get married.

Just because you accept homosexuality as a norm, doesn't mean everyone else does also. It is very far from the norm for me and most everyone I know. It is on the other end of the spectrum.

Thank heaven, I don't have to deal with any of this in any school system.

For the record as I have explained in my previous post I am neither against consenting adults being homosexual nor do I wish to prohibit them from living the lives that they choose in any way. I have no religious objection and I am not against this because it is a "sin" or what have you because we are all sinners in our own way and not my place to judge. That being said, I do not feel that it is appropriate for our school systems to be introducing the concept of homosexuality to our elementary level children by means of legislation and force. It should be OPTIONAL not forced by the long arm of the politically correct law mongers. In my opinion it should be reserved for young adults, teens, people who are old enough and mature enough to understand, process the information properly and make a decision on their own. I do not want some asshat in a court room or any other room legislating my parental rights away. Just as religion has been banned from our public school systems, as it should be, so should sex related subjects as well as teachings and promotion of "alternative lifestyles" such as homosexuality. Leave the sex, religion and political agendas at the door, teach them math, language, science, subjects that are universal and relevant to their educational goals. Do not turn our elementary schools into a ground for introducing political and sexual agendas, it is neither proper nor acceptable.

And yes in my opinion...listen to the words...in MY opinion...homosexuality is a perverted and deviant lifestyle choice. I do not hate anyone for being homosexual, I do not wish to prevent them from being who they choose to be, but I will not tolerate anyone, government or otherwise, telling me that I have to sit by while my six year old is taught that being gay is natural and normal and acceptable to all because like it or not it ISN'T. Everyone does not share your opinion that it is wonderful and terrific to be a homosexual and the sooner people understand this as fact, the sooner other people will be willing to accept your right to be gay and exist peacefully. You do not have the right to tell parents what they have to expose their children to, nor does the government or anyone else for that matter. It is an affront to a persons rights as a parent and as a tax paying citizen. My child, my choice.