Real Talk about White Privilege

Ya know Semper... and this is meant as both a compliment and a critique... your posts are always more intelligent and interesting when you stop and think about them as opposed to reacting (and posting) like a restless leg syndrome conservative

Thank you.. I think... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I know exactly what you are saying and I have no argument for you...

I suppose for me, as perhaps with many, it all depends on the day I have had... I do not necessarily deal with the BEST society has to offer on most days and I get home and get on here still feeling aggressive.

I will as always though, take your advice and attempt to "temper" my posts, without "temper" as it were...

Thank my friend

Semper

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by grover
In all reality that is the discriminator, money. Race is second, but money is the biggie, especially in this society.

Oohh, watch it grover. You'll lose all your friends if you say that!

I happen to agree with you 100% but I get a lot of flack for suggesting that race isn't just the be all and end all deciding factor of the have and have-nots in this country.

You'll get accused of all sorts of nasty things if you insist that class plays a part.

Its true and the thing is, and it is the point that is being missed in this thread, is that in this country class is tied up in matters of race both pro and con.

I have some black friends who are very well off indeed and have considerable clout, but the reality is if they did not have what they have, they would be just another black person. Still when it comes to matters of law, or at the least the police, po white trash still rank higher than blacks... I live in the south I think I know what I am talking about.

Grover,

I live in the DEEP south, and that is NOT true of all police...

What you are doing is generalizing and though I expect that of some on here, you are better than that....

Lumping all the police into one category is no different than lumping all blacks in one category...

Semper

Can't we consider for a moment that both extremes exist today, that race can be used as a barrier to advancement and fair treatment as well as the oppposite, that it can be manipulated to acheive preferential treatment and this depends on the people involved and the context too.

IMO to generalise about white/black priveledge and their opposite disadvanteges doesn't lead to an accurate conclusion, the whole issue is made up of a myriad of circumstances, factors, people and influences to be able to come to one static answer other than prejudice exists across the whole spectrum.

People should try to come to a balanced opinion and keep in mind that oversensitivity to race is as bad as insensitivity.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Grover,

I live in the DEEP south, and that is NOT true of all police...

What you are doing is generalizing and though I expect that of some on here, you are better than that....

Lumping all the police into one category is no different than lumping all blacks in one category...

Semper

you do not live in the deep south, you live in west virginia I live south of you AND I do not live in the deep south

Semper, several of my cousins married into law enforcement, one of whom's husband is the sheriff of Roanoke county, and they are all good people, then I have encountered really calloused and cynical police as well.

I am fully aware of this but thank you for the comment.

Originally posted by grover
you do not live in the deep south, you live in west virginia I live south of you AND I do not live in the deep south

Uh, no, grover, you're wrong. Semper lives south of you, if you live in VA. WVA is where he owns land, not where he lives or works.

[edit on 11-3-2007 by jsobecky]

The on going myth about Whites is that they're all born with silver spoons in their mouths. Hardly. It's because the very privileged elitists are mostly white that perpetuates this myth. But they only make up a small percentage of the race. And if you really think about it, you'll realize it's all the poorer classes who are exploited and discriminated against. So be you Black, White, Brown, Red or Yellow, if you're a person of means, you're not as likely to be pigeonholed into racial profiles.

Originally posted by grover
Its true and the thing is, and it is the point that is being missed in this thread, is that in this country class is tied up in matters of race both pro and con.

I agree. The "class" issue is dismissed in ALL race threads by those who want to make race the only factor. As I said before in this very thread on page 4:

White Privilege was best illustrated here by Open_Minded Skeptic:

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
In the US today, it is best to be rich and white.
Next is rich and black (or any non-Caucasion).
Next is middle class and any color.
Next is poor and white.
Next is poor and black (or other).

But in a discussion of race, when some of us have brought up class as inexorably entwined, we get accused of using our "dominant culture" status to try to "escape" talking about race, to avoid "facing" race and "copping out".

Seems the jig is up.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I believe that the transition to class is a way for those in the dominant culture to escape from discussing race. The reason why is that when people of color openly discuss how they are affected by institutional racism, some in dominant culture quickly throw up other "isms" to avoid facing race.

(some notables are "classism", "feminism", "ageism", etc.).

To me, it is a cop out mechanism...

This amature evaluation of why some of us bring up class couldn't be more wrong. If we wanted to avoid talking about race, we could EASILY not even open the race threads! It's a snap! We don't have to maneuver the discussion to class to avoid "facing" race... We could easily avoid it if we desired. That's ridiculous!

po white trash still rank higher than blacks... I live in the south I think I know what I am talking about.

As illustrated by OMS's statement above. I agree. I think you know what you're talking about. I lived in Biloxi, Mississippi and my husband lived in Baton Rouge, each for about 18 months... Yeah.

Originally posted by truthseeka
There is a significant correlation between being black and being poor in America.

Does quoting yourself like this count as a one liner, or even a post? Ah, well, the one liner rule has not been violated now.

I think I would like to chime in on this one.
For starters, I am white. Now I do agree that in the past, those who were minorities did get a bad deal in America. And I do agree that the white people have run amok over them. However, this is not the past and this is now. I can tell you that from my own perspective the following:
When I was growing up, living in a family of 5, my father was in the military and not of a high rank, we were denied any and all federal aid, things like food stamps and assistance. I can safely say that I have seen and tasted spam and balonga made and prepared different ways and did not get all that I wanted at Christmas or for my Birthday. I can safely say as well, that as I grew up, I was taught to see beyond the color of the persons skin as well. My family did not have the priveledges of being white. Both parents hard to work hard to get what they needed and to provide for their family. As I grew up, I was not aware that such was preveliant, and there was heavy emphesis on not discriminating against anyone, especially if you were white, I have seen alot of the civil rights movement tapes, Rosa Parks stories, and other media of that nature. When I got to high school, I was not the best in my class, but did not realize until I tried for scholarships to get into colledge that being white was a downfall. I could not and was denied scholarships on the basis that I was white, male and came from a middle class family. Ok so I move on, and I join the military. Unfortunately the view and opinion that most people have of minorities is from those few bad apples. I saw more african americans scream unfairness on getting promoted and stated it was because of their skin color. The reality was that they did not study for any of the tests and did nothing to improve themselves. I did my time in the military and got out. Back in civilian life, living on my own, did I have help, no. But I saw where those who were minorities were getting help on a regular basis. I had to work for everything. It was not easy and I started at the bottom, as those were the positions I went for. Now years later I am a manager. I did not get to be a manager by screaming discrimination, actually was the victim of it. Seems as though in areas where minorities are the majority, favoritism runs rampit, but I bit my tongue and did what I was hired to do. I have been accused falsely of racism and discrimination, yet in each case it was proven, by a minority that I did not, and where the person erred was in their perception as I told them NO. White privledge in todays society? Really I am white and not privlidge. Side note and this is face. It seems as though 17% of the working population make min wage and of that 12% is white. Where is the priviledge in that?

Just my thoughts.

Peace

This is the name of a segment Diane Sawyer did in 1991. Two discrimination researchers, one black and one white, went to St. Louis, I believe, and recorded day to day living for 2 weeks or so. Of course, the white man received FAR more favorable treatment than the black man. I'd post the video, but I'm having trouble finding it. So instead, I'll post summaries of the video.

www.hannibalbjohnson.com...

The men separately undertook some mundane but important day-to-day tasks...Without fail, the White male received vastly more favorable treatment. The car dealer offered him the car both men wanted at a price significantly lower than the price quoted to the Black male. The same anxious sales clerk who cheerfully greeted the White male in the department store tailed the Black male from aisle to aisle. The White male received warm greetings and leads from an employment agency. He got job leads from a potential employer. The Black male heard warnings about "laziness" at the same employment agency. He heard, "Sorry, no jobs here," at the same employment agency. The White male toured a vacant apartment. The landlord offered him a lease almost immediately. The same landlord coldly told the Black man, "No vacancies." In the end, the two men, friends from the outset, compared notes. Each man expressed his astonishment-indeed, horror-at the extent of their differential treatment.

This guy pretty much summed it up here. I'll add a few more specific things from the video.

They showed a timer when Glen was in the mall waiting for a store associate to help him. He waited over 10 minutes as the guy, who can be seen in the background, pretends like Glen is not there. Then, the MINUTE John walks up, the guy goes right up to him to assist him in his shopping.

At the dealership, the salesman who quotes the prices tells John he'll have to put 10-15% down on the car. Glen is told he'll have to put 20-25% down on the car.

When they went looking for a house, one guy gives John the key to the apartment AND a master key in case that key doesn't work, so that John can check out the place. Glen is told a woman "just got the place" earlier that day.

At another place, John is told that "the neigborhood won't be nice for long, because THEY'RE moving in." He adds that "one of THEM came by earlier looking for a house." (a reference to Glen, who went to this place before John did) One woman even flat out tells Glen that "this is NOT a ghetto."

This one is a product review.

www.corvision.com...

In this startling expose, ABC News Prime Time Live anchor, Diane Sawyer explores skin color prejudice in America with the help of two friends virtually dentical in all respects but one-- John is white, Glen is black. Together they take part in a series of hidden camera experiments exploring people's reactions to each in a variety of situations. Acting within the scenario of moving to a new town, Prime Time Live, undercover, follows John and Glen separately as they each try to rent an apartment, respond to job listings, purchase a car, and conduct everyday activities such as shopping. The responses in oth the white and racially mixed communities are shocking and consistent. In every instance, John is welcomed into the community while Glen is discouraged by high prices, long waits, and unfriendly salespeople. Diane Sawyer concludes TRUE COLORS with a discussion with John and Glen about the outcome of these experiments and their experiences with discrimination in daily life. A corVISION Media Release Produced by ABC News

Seeing this really doesn't do justice to the film, though; you have to see it for yourself for the full effect.

:shk::shk::shk:


[edit on 11-3-2007 by truthseeka]

Too bad you left out the best parts, truth. Some additional excerpts from the link:

I greatly value my identity as an American. I also value my identity as an African-American. I recognize that African-Americans have not, by and large, assimilated. But assimilation is only partially a choice. That which one aspires to assimilate into must be to some degree willing to allow the amalgamation.

Our lack of assimilation, dictated by a tortuous history of racism and discrimination, may not be such a bad thing. Assimilation, after all, requires sacrificing our cultural identity in favor of some imagined "average American" ideal. Without doubt, all of us, racial and ethnic identities aside, need to jump into the American mix. But we need not melt down so far as to lose our distinctive, defining culture and history.

What unites us-our shared humanity and our total embrace of America's lofty ideals-trumps our important, real racial and ethnic differences. Our differences, though, do not magically disappear. We all benefit from understanding our rich diversity. We learn and grow by sharing all of whom and what we as individuals, and all of whom at what we as various "peoples" that make America great

The concoction in our mythical melting pot looks, feels, and taste like Pablum. Compare that with the richness and zest of the colorful assortment in my salad bowl. Each ingredient retains its individual integrity. Each ingredient adds unmistakable character to the whole. Together, they flavor a vibrant, all-American piece de resistance. Forget the melting pot. Make mine a salad bowl!

This is beautiful! And of all the accusations white people here have endured that we are asking blacks to "assimilate" (whatever that is) I have NEVER read a request that black people do so. I have NEVER asked a black person to eat hot dogs and apple pie and watch a tractor pull or to conform to this imagined "American Cultural Ideal" that I don't even conform to!

So... let it go. Nobody is asking you to assimilate. Black women, let your hair be natural and beautiful! Stop lightening your skin! You impose these horrible punishments on yourself and then blame the white people! Embrace your own culture whatever it is and be a part of this rich salad that is the true American culture!

The rest of the info in that source was not relevant to my post. This is why I didn't even read it.

What I DID do is post the relevant information: a review of "True Colors." Did you miss that in the post, where I said I would post reviews of the film because I couldn't find the film?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Did you miss that in the post, where I said I would post reviews of the film because I couldn't find the film?

No, I didn't miss it. I just think it's interesting that you pick the most negative part of a piece done 16 years ago and leave out the "other half" of the picture, which is beautiful, hopeful and positive. Of course, that would kind of ruin the pathetic, pitiable picture you're trying to paint...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This is beautiful! And of all the accusations white people here have endured that we are asking blacks to "assimilate" (whatever that is) I have NEVER read a request that black people do so.

More from BH, all-important emperess of her own mind.

NONE OF US said that YOU, or any other white posters, are asking black people to assimilate. What we DID say is that the structure of American society pushes Anglo-conformity. But, I'm sure all this is moot to the all-important, uber regal BH, who is the subject of EVERY SINGLE POST from Truthseeka.

So... let it go. Nobody is asking you to assimilate. Black women, let your hair be natural and beautiful! Stop lightening your skin! You impose these horrible punishments on yourself and then blame the white people!

Embrace your own culture whatever it is and be a part of this rich salad that is the true American culture!

More delusions.

Job restrictions on ethnic hairstyles (dreadlocks, braids, etc.), decreased opportunities for employment for people with non-white ethnic names, the designation of black culture as a "culture of poverty," and the recent NBA dress code imposed by David Stern say otherwise.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No, I didn't miss it. I just think it's interesting that you pick the most negative part of a piece done 16 years ago and leave out the "other half" of the picture, which is beautiful, hopeful and positive. Of course, that would kind of ruin the pathetic, pitiable picture you're trying to paint...

Even MORE delusions.

This guy was NOT a part of "True Colors." You can say it 20,000 times like it is, but it will only be true in BH land. He offered a summary of the film; big difference.

And, there was NO positive aspect of this piece. If you think so...I'm EXTREMELY GLAD I do not share your sentiments.:shk::shk:

[edit on 11-3-2007 by truthseeka]

the recent NBA dress code imposed by David Stern say otherwise

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you post things like that? You really lost me on that one Truth.

Originally posted by shooterbrody

the recent NBA dress code imposed by David Stern say otherwise

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you post things like that? You really lost me on that one Truth.

How so?

Is it because you have no idea what this is referring to?

Originally posted by truthseeka
What we DID say is that the structure of American society pushes Anglo-conformity.

Well, isn't that nice and non-specific? Nobody actually SAID it but the "structure of the society" forces it on us...

WTF???

Originally posted by truthseeka
Job restrictions on ethnic hairstyles (dreadlocks, braids, etc.), decreased opportunities for employment

You have to fight that crap! The fight's not over, truth. You know that. Stop crying about things not being the way they should and fight to get it! We all have to do that...

the recent NBA dress code imposed by David Stern say otherwise.

This should be good...

What exactly in the NBA Dress Code is keeping the black players from their black culture?

Players are required to wear Business Casual attire whenever they are engaged in team or league business.

You are aware that most businesses require a dress code when engaged in business, aren't you? Why should basketball teams be any different? Do the black players expect preferential treatment or something? I'm not sure I get your point from an assimilation point of view.

Edited to clear up a few things.

[edit on 11-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by truthseeka
Grover, you won't find any arguments from me.

Neither from myself, grover. After all, I have never said that class was never a part of this. I only argued that when people deal with subjects of race, class should be deemphasized to keep focused. In fact, if one would read my sources, class is constantly mentioned. However, I like to keep on point in a discussion about white privilege. And that means, focusing on the racial aspect more than the class aspect.


I still don't understand why friendship would be predicated on a difference of opinion, but grover won't lose any friends because of his ideas. He is a highly caring and conscientious individual with a spectacular conscience. He cares for people.

Ceci is HIGHLY intelligent (not to mention she has a stronger background in sociology than I do). So, if she makes the case for white privilege better than I do, GREAT!! It's just a shame she was on lock for most of this thread and couldn't help me out sooner...:shk:

Awwwww. Thanks, Truthseeka. I'm here now. So, it's time to make sure that our side comes out without anymore deflections pointing toward personality.

Now, Ceci, how many non-whites (who are not mistaken for whites due to light skin) do YOU think agree that their skin color doesn't affect their lives?

I think that the skin color of non-white people highly affects their lives. So much so that in some families, this aspect tears their loved ones apart. Unfortunately, white privilege has placed the issue of colorism uncomfortably at the surface so much so that it affects even the little things.

Notice that the last sentence in the paragraph is verified by the stock broker and the college student (not to mention it's a DUH

to you and me). This is ESPECIALLY true about his last comment.

Lol. Notice she just didn't say no. She said HELL NO!

This proves to me that a lot of us know that white privilege exists, but when we question those in the dominant culture, then we get attacked because it opens "the knapsack" of goodies that continues to come. This is especially the case when Tim Wise in his article mentions the notion of "oppression" and "oppressed" when it comes to class. He points out that even those who might feel oppressed by class in the "white community" can still be oppressors. They too have the power of white privilege. And as a result, they use it too because society still convinces them that they are "above" any person of color.

People of color have had to live with this knowledge throughout their lives. Despite our efforts to change it, there is still the ridicule, the personal attacks and the depreciation of our words. I think that when this happens, the "oppressors" work in full force.

It even means that even the most uneducated of white people can feel that they are superior to the most educated and astute person of color simply because white privilege is there. White people don't even have to have a high school or college degree. They can be believed by others simply because of their skin color. And what is pitiful about this is that any person of color can pay their dues economically as well as academically and still be treated badly by the poorest and most ignorant white person because society validates their skin color and their status repeatedly. It's one of the reasons why "good, honest, God-fearing folk" back in the day supported the Klan. And to this day, they continue the "Klan rhetoric" as a point to keep the benefits going. Being skipped over for a job doesn't even amount to the racism and the lack of social access people of color have experienced. And it will never amount to the same harsh and derogatory treatment the person of color experiences from the dominant culture.

It is only worse because "they won't see it."



Ooooh, Truthseeka, this is the part I like the best. Let me highlight this from your post:

A: White folks are always thinking they know all the answers. A Black man's words are worth less than a White man's. When White customers come into our dealership and see me standing next to the cars, I become invisible to them. Actually, they may see me as a well-dressed janitor (laughs), or actively avoid me. They will search out a White salesman. Or, when I explain something to a customer, they always check out the information with my White colleagues. They don't trust me.

When I mention this to our manager, who is White, he tells me I'm oversensitive and being paranoid. That's what being White means. It means having the power or authority to tell me what's really happening even though I know it's not. Being White means you can fool yourself into believing you're not prejudiced, when you are. That's what it means to be White.

Though the retiree was my favorite responder, you can see the salesman clearly is the best personal experience example. Ceci, you know what's strange; the things he described have happened to me in this thread!!

It has happened to all of us. I have lost count of the many times those same phrases has been thrown at me. I don't even think that the people saying them are cognizant of what they say. They just continue this tripe ad nauseum so they can quiet you and nullify your words.

My RL experiences were chalked up to my paranoia and/or over-sensitivity. In fact, posters in this thread told me what REALLY happened in my RL experiences, even though I was there and they were not. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised.:shk:

Well, Ceci, I gave you what I told you I would.

Thanks for those interviews. I think they show exactly what people of color have to go through on a daily basis as a result of people's attitudes concerning "White privilege". It is amazing to me how much attention is paid to the same rhetoric repeatedly without any growth concerning our feelings and ideas concerning this issue and many others. I believe too much time is spent on "personalizing" these issues and less is spent trying to comprehend them.

Amateur or no, I still think that if people can critically think and deal with the issues without attributing them to personality, shows the measure of their knowledge and erudition when discussing controversial topics. However, white priviliege gives those in the dominant culture a free pass when it comes to actually comprehending the wider social issues that are at stake because it doesn't affect them. It is scary to think that there are white people in the world who will never be touched by these aspects of life because society makes their privilege and their superiority a silent and invisible benefit that keeps on giving. And because their arrogance is rewarded from the mouths of politicians and the media, the rest of us have to put up with this same rhetoric over and over. Not to mention to fight off angry attacks when these aspects of society are exposed.

I'll have more to say later. And grover, I didn't forget you. I will take time to address your comments about class. I want you to know, though, that I have always said that it is alright to disagree. It makes a conversation quite fruitful in the long run.


[edit on 11-3-2007 by ceci2006]