Film to document discovery of Jesus' burial site

Originally posted by strangefires
If your have a reliable source that says otherwise please post it.

A priest named Pierre d'Arcis wrote to the Pope claiming the that Turin is man made and fake, created to help the church in his region to trick pilgrims into giving the church money.

In a documentary made by Court TV, they covered this.

In a letter to the Pope written in 1389, d'Arcis stated that Geoffroy "falsely and deceitfully... procured for his church a certain cloth" which had been "cunningly painted," and pretended that it was the "actual shroud in which our Savior Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb." It was suggested that the shroud was the centerpiece of an elaborate marketing campaign launched by Geoffroy, and intended to drive up the sales of accompanying souvenirs he sold to the masses for a substantial profit.

According to d'Arcis, the shroud was "the work of human skill," and the identity of the person who forged the shroud had been established, although his name was never mentioned.


[...] However, the pope instituted restrictions that included prohibiting Geoffroy II from displaying the shroud as a holy relic. He decreed that every time it was displayed in public, the exhibitor had to inform onlookers that the shroud was not the actual burial garment of Jesus, and contained only an artistic rendition of his face.

Source: Emergence of the Shroud

[edit on 26-2-2007 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The fact is, if people lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ, I really don't think the world would be in the shape it is in today.

On the other hand, it could also very easily be argued that the world is in the shape it's in today precisely because people have lived by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The theory is, if we all believed in the same thing, there wouldn't be any conflict. It's a nice theory, but the people in China all pretty much buy into the very wise and humanitarian teachings of Confucius, but that hasn't stopped them from occasionally slaughtering each other wholesale.

I personally don't know how the documentary producers can use DNA to verify the identity of someone who didn't leave behind a single other archeological artifact, and who many scholars believe is a fictional composite of several different preachers of the time. Like trying to prove they've found the actual grave of King Arthur.

I suppose it won't stop people from praying to it. People love to pray to relics, real or not. A lot of people just can't deal with abstractions.

Originally posted by Malichai
Really? I see its all Jews behind the work. Radical Jews. Just like the Radical Muslims they attack the faiths of others.

Next they will dig up Muhamed.

It's always been my understanding that, according to the Bible, Jesus was a "radical Jew." Why else would the mainstream Jewish leaders of His time be so frightened of His teachings. Malichai, is there some reason that you seem to hate Jews? If you truly followed the teachings of Christ, then, you wouldn't hate anyone. Maybe you aren't really a Christian. But I've digressed enough from the topic. I think that after the "evidence" presented on the documentary is studied in greater detail, it will be proven to be bunk like the James ossuary. If I were an archeologist and I found evidence of a tomb of Christ and His extended family, I would not have waited over twenty years to come forward with even the possibility that I had made such a big find. Methinks that after the popularity of "The DaVinci Code," someone wanted to to get a piece of that action. DVD's of the documentary on sale now!!!!

[edited for poor spelling]

[edit on 2/27/2007 by PapaHomer]

I watched some videos short-cuts and trailers on YouTube about what is coming up next and i noticed many coincidens. According to what my Mathematician used to tell me and from what i've read by the adventures of Sherloc Holms, i have learnt one thing: ''too many coincidences are not coincidences''

Back to the topic:I think it's the perspective and the scope people see and understand things. We Cristians want to believe in God and the resurrection of Christ. At the same time we deny Mohammed's divinity and consider him mortal.

Originally posted by marg6043
Mohamed was actually a real man that die just like any other human, he was not claim to be of divine birth just that he have divine vision and that is something that neither you or me can prove as true of false but can only make our own minds as the validity of his claims.

Muslims' on the other hand belive in the resurrection of Mohammed and deny Christ's divinity.

Originally posted by CinLung
Anyway, Jesus is just one of the prophet, he is no god.
Christian has betrayed everything and made him god.

But what's more Islam as a religion is based on Christianity. So if Christianity is something wrong subsiquently Islam is something is wrong as well. It's a cascade!

I have also read this anonymous post:

This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: 2012 End of World?

Im only 13 and now im really scared? Are all these pridictions due to religion??
Who thinks this will happen?
Im really worried now.

which is currently discussed Here

I hope its not panic that is starting spreading. Religion used to serve in stability and equilibrium in society but now if the site prooved to be true we will be on our own. No more prayers...

About my last words, i dunno know, all the monotheistic religions speak about one God and apparently their prophets have been deified!

To end, if Christianity is something true it will hold, if not it will crumble.

Am i the only one who feels a deep void in me?


[edit on 27-2-2007 by Dragonlike]

*Bump*

An Orthodox sect, according to Israeli law, took possession and buried the remains found in that tomb immediately after they were found; hence preventing Cameron and his professionals or any independent scholars from being able to analyze those bones. (hmmmm)

So my question is, are the burials conducted with strict rigor and record keeping, such that the bones found in that tomb might one day be examined by scholars?

Or has this modern sectarian practice destroyed the historical evidence for one of the greatest mysteries in human history for all time? Let's hope not.

At any rate, is someone pressing for permission in this case to have access to those bones?

And in fact, why didn't they (Cameron and his bunch) examine those bones before even writing that book and making a documentary on it? Strange. Certainly, by examining the remains found in that tomb, they would be able to find out if any of those bones show evidence of having died by crucifixion.

Something fishy is going on here. The most important evidence in this case has not even been analyzed!

One would think that with all of the money Cameron was forwarded to on this project by The Discovery Channel... over 3 million dollars, that he would have been able to at least in the worst case scenario, bribe his way into having access to those remains found in that tomb to have them analyzed by forensic professionals who specialize in analyzing such evidence. But it's my guess that all he would have had to do was to contact the Israeli gov't and get permission to exhume those remains found in that crypt. I can't see that the Israeli gov't would refuse a well-known American, like Cameron, to have access to such evidence especially considering how much money is sent to Israel by the U.S. ...



[edit on 27-2-2007 by Palasheea]

I think it will boil down to never knowing because they won't let us know the truth or any truth unless it's been "reviewed" first and filtered appropriately.

Imagine if this were true. Jesus' tomb found with wife and child. Remember The Davinci Code? Upon release the church scrambled to contain the information and called it blasphemy. People began to awaken and talk and ponder the what if that were true and the church slammed the lid closed very quickly to debunk, disinform because this would literally turn the world upside down.

Religion as we have been brainwashed into knowing it would be meaningless and the masses would no longer be controlled. How would the church recover?
They already have priests under fire for pedophila they aren't in postion to take another hit so they bury and do whatever means necessary to contain the information just as they have all this time.

Well one thing we do know is that the location of the new burial site of the most important evidence in this case, those remains found in that tomb, is either being withheld by those Orthodox Jews who have been commissioned by the gov't to immediately re-bury those bones at another location, where they are not giving scholars permission to exhume those remains for analysis.

Or Cameron and his crew have conveniently used this excuse that the remains were buried somewhere within days after their discovery where they are simply leaving it at that because they really do not want to risk destroying their claims that this tomb is in fact that of Jesus and his family should those remains prove to disprove this claim upon in-depth forensic analysis. For this reason, they really do not want those remains analyzed.

But which ever way you look at it, there's a conspiracy of one sort or another going on here involving the location of the new re-burial site for those remains found in that tomb -- this to me is very clear.

So what does that tell us? I think it tells us that antiquities dept. of the Israeli gov't already have examined those remains and have found some strong evidence to support the claim that in fact this tomb housed the remains of Jesus and his family. And why would they want to hide that from the world? Well think about it. Could it be that they simply are not interested in releasing material evidence that Jesus and other members of his family that corroborate with that information given in the Bible actually even existed? And in this case, we are talking about hard core scientific evidence.

If those remains were examined by Israels' antiquities dept., which they most certainly were, were found NOT to be the remains of Jesus and his family, then they would most certainly would have allowed any legitimate scholar out there to have access to those remains for analysis.

So in this regard, it seems fairly apparent that this very well may be the case here because so far we are not seeing any information about the scientific data about those remains because the Isaeli gov't does not want the rest of the world to have that information for reasons stated above.






[edit on 27-2-2007 by Palasheea]

posted by Palasheea

An Orthodox sect took possession and buried the remains found in that tomb immediately after they were found; hence neither professionals nor any independent scholars analyzed those bones. My question is, are the burials conducted with strict rigor and record keeping, such that the bones found in that tomb might one day be examined by scholars? By examining the remains found in that tomb, they would be able to find out if any of those bones show evidence of having died by crucifixion. Is someone pressing for permission to have access to those bones? Why didn't Cameron and his team examine those bones before even writing that book and making a documentary on it? Strange. Certainly, something fishy is going on here. [Edited by Don W]

I fear Marg6043 hit it on the head! It’s a scam. Pure and simple. I do not believe the discovery of Jesus’ tomb, or any tomb thought to be so closely associated with Him could have been kept a secret for one day, not to say 27 years. A high quality tv grade Discovery Channel documentary would take 6 to 12 weeks to produce at the fastest. Several dozen people would be involved. Entry visas, dig permits, and so on would take months to arrange. To write a good quality 200 page book would take at least three months by a highly skilled author, after the facts had been established. That is, after the research had been completed. I’m suggesting this is purely a commercial venture. The project is being hyped to gain the largest audience. This will pass in the same way the “James brother of Jesus” ossuary passed.

It's my guess all Cameron would have had to do was to contact the Israeli gov't and get permission to exhume those remains found in that crypt. I can't see that the Israeli gov't would refuse a well-known American, like Cameron, to have access to such evidence especially considering how much money is sent to Israel by the US . .

The Israeli government long ago gave control over religious issues to the ultra Orthodox sects, because they frequently held the balance of power in the Knesset, albeit they are less than 5% of the population of Israel. The American support of Israel would not figure in with those people. Israelis generally figure the US is paying them to be a “watchdog” or “trip wire” of the American interests in the Middle East, so it is purely a quid pro quo arrangement.

Maybe you can answer me this question. It appears the most religious of the Jewish people are content to let the past be the past, so why is it that Americans in particular want to intrude over anyone’s grave or otherwise sacred ground to investigate issues so old it is doubtful any new learning would have any effect?

Which ever way you look at it, there's a conspiracy of one sort or another going on here involving the location of the re-burial site for the remains found in that tomb - this is clear to me. So what does that tell us? I think the antiquities dept. of the Israeli gov't has already examined the remains and found strong evidence to support the claim that in fact this tomb housed the remains of Jesus and his family. Why would they want to hide that from the world?

Could it be that they are not interested material evidence that Jesus and other members of his family actually existed? And in this case, we are talking about hard core scientific evidence. If those remains were examined by Israeli’s' antiquities dept., which they most certainly were, and were found NOT to be the remains of Jesus and his family, then they would have allowed any legitimate scholar out there to have access to those remains for analysis . . the Israeli gov't does not want the rest of the world to have that information . . [Edited by Don W]

We know Bush43 and PM Olmert are like joined at the hips, so it may be that Olmert gave the “bad” news to B43 who has asked for this to be withheld for a time to let him fortify his religious base here in the US?


[edit on 2/27/2007 by donwhite]

I didn't recognize the name of the other guy, Simcha Jacobovici, involved in this, but I saw him on tv and recognized him, he's the "Naked Archaeologist".

I've seen a little of his show. I got the impression that he was a firm beleiver in the bible, and that he beleives that the events in the bible were actual events.

More on Jacobovici:
He doesn't actually have any relevant degrees here, he has a BA in Philosophy and Political Science and an M.A. in International Relations, neither of which have anything to do with archaeology, to say the least

per en.wikipedia.org...

alasheea
An Orthodox sect, according to Israeli law, took possession and buried the remains found in that tomb immediately after they were found; hence preventing Cameron and his professionals or any independent scholars from being able to analyze those bones

Huh?
The discovery was made nearly 30 years ago. Cameron only recently made the documentary starting 3 years ago.

What source are you getting this from?

[edit on 27-2-2007 by Nygdan]

Nygdon,
I've read several news sources on this story where they said that the remains found in this tomb were buried somewhere at another cemetery within days after that tomb was blasted open. And it's already common knowledge that an ultra conservative sect has been commissioned by the Israeli gov't to bury those remains found in all of these tombs that are being discovered now due to heavy business and residential expansion in those area's.

When I have time later, I'll search again for one of those news sources (but there are quite a few) where it says that the remains found in those tombs were buried somewhere after the tomb was discovered and investigated.

My main point of contention about all of this is, so far, it seems apparent that Cameron's group never aggressively pursued a request to the Israeli gov't to exhume those remains and to evaluate if any of those bones indicate that someone died by crucifixion. By being able to examine those remains of those bodies in that crypt, they would have also been able to do more DNA tests and so on.. the list is endless.

DonWhite --- you've brought up several interesting points! I will stop back here sometime this evening to go over some of the things you've brought up in your post.

[edit on 27-2-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by DJMessiah
A priest named Pierre d'Arcis wrote to the Pope claiming the that Turin is man made and fake,

There are plenty of others who have evidence (including pollen, coin imprints, etc) who say that proves it isn't fake. it has been discussed here at length and there a few threads with lots of interesting info on it .. especially the pollen.

Anyways ...

On topic -

www.earnedmedia.org...

10 reasons why the 'jesus' tomb is bogus.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
10 reasons why the 'jesus' tomb is bogus.

# There is no DNA evidence that this is the historical Jesus of Nazareth

that means it isn't verifiable
that doesn't mean it isn't the tomb of YOUR jesus (as i here it wasn't an uncommon name back then)

# The statistical analysis is untrustworthy

again, that doesn't PROVE it's bogus, it just means it is POSSIBLY untrustworthy

# The name "Jesus" was a popular name in the first century, appearing in 98 other tombs and on 21 other ossuaries

true
but not proof it's bogus
just that it could be

# There is no historical evidence that Jesus was ever married or had a child

well, there isn't a real case that a historical jesus lived (that's a topic for another thread)

# The earliest followers of Jesus never called him "Jesus, son of Joseph"

do we even have records of the earliest followers of jesus?

# It is highly unlikely that Joseph, who died earlier in Galilee, was buried in Jerusalem, since the historical record connects him only to Nazareth or Bethlehem

again, highly unlikely isn't definitive proof

# The Talipot tomb and ossuaries are such that they would have belonged to a rich family, which does not match the historical record for Jesus

...historical records of jesus?
where are they?

# Fourth-century church historian Eusebius makes quite clear that the body of James, the brother of Jesus, was buried alone near the temple mount and that his tomb was visited in the early centuries, making very unlikely that the Talipot tomb was Jesus' "family tomb"

a 4th century historian is a good source on the burial of an earlier 1st century figure?

# The two Mary ossuaries do not mention anyone from Migdal, but simply has the name Mary, one of the most common of all ancient Jewish female names

so, it makes it less likely
not impossible

# By all ancient accounts, the tomb of Jesus was empty, making it highly unlikely that it was moved to another tomb, decayed for one year's time, and then the bones put in an ossuary

by ALL ancient accounts?
you mean the bible?


this is obviously not an objective source
because that's the only thing that even mentions the burial of jesus

[edit on 2/27/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Huh?
The discovery was made nearly 30 years ago. Cameron only recently made the documentary starting 3 years ago.

What source are you getting this from?

[edit on 27-2-2007 by Nygdan]

Oh, now I see what you were asking. I should have phrased it better... I know the discovery was 30 years ago and it was days after that discovery when those remains found in that tomb were buried. I was just saying that Cameron didn't bother to have those remains exhumed (even though they were buried 30 yrs ago) to have experts analyze them and I gave one reason why perhaps he didn't do that in my other post here.

Below is an excerpt from a press article that mentions what happened to the remains found in that tomb.

Jerusalem Post article

Kloner noted that when the ossuaries were found nearly three decades ago, most of the bones inside were badly decomposed.

Due to haredi pressures put on the Israeli government, no anthropological tests were ever carried out on the remains, he said, with the bones transferred to the Religious Affairs Ministry for immediate reburial along with assorted other remains found in various construction projects and digs.

The location of the bones, which were then interred by the Jewish burial society, is not known.

At the press conference, Gibson had recalled a similar process, though he said an anthropologist had normally examined bones in the numerous ossuaries that were being recovered at the time from various caves at construction sites in the then-expanding Jerusalem.

Originally posted by DDay
Remember The Davinci Code?

Yes, an overblown bit of fiction with very little or no basis in fact. A dull book and an even worse movie. A bunch of conspiracy theorist hogwash with no hard fact to support it.

Originally posted by DDay
Religion as we have been brainwashed into knowing it would be meaningless and the masses would no longer be controlled. How would the church recover?

Are you brainwashed by religion? I'm not, and I don't believe anybody in here has been brainwashed by religion. Again, this is more of that malcontent, nonsensical propaganda that atheists love to spew out of their pie holes.

What these undereducated atheists don't understand is that you could bring the corpse of Jesus Christ himself under the microscope, obtain a 100% positive DNA match (for whatever good that would do), and find all the instruments of his crucifixion with his blood all over them, but you still couldn't undermine the faith of true Christians.

What atheists don't understand is that the New Testament has built-in failsafes that continue to guide "the believers" even as skeptics attempt to debunk Jesus Christ. The New Testament says that there will be false representations of Christ, and there will even be miracles to substantiate these false representations of Christ. The New Testament advises don't you believe it.

So, the only folks who would lose their minds if you took away their religion tomorrow would be those of very weak faith and understanding of their own religion. I mean, for scientific evidence to make a dent in his faith, a "believer" would have to be almost as gullible as an atheist. And that's pretty damned gullible.

The only folks who might be convinced with physical evidence would be the scientific and atheistic clowns who don't believe in Christ, anyway. People who truly have faith in Christ and understand the New Testament will march right through these false representations of Christ, and they'll emerge on the other side still believing.

Pretty simple topic, when you know what you're talking about.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/27/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Ok, you claim you have not any evidence of Jesus blood vials to testify if he is real or not...
*me takes a deep breath*
Perhaps i commit blasphemy...
*an other deep breath*
What about
All the relics attributed to god?

I suggest:

Pieces of the True Cross, including the half of the INRI inscription tablet, preserved at the ancient basilica Santa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome. Very small pieces or particles of the True Cross are preserved in hundreds of other churches in Europe and inside crucifixes. According to Gerasimos Smyrnakis[1] Rohault de Flery calculated that the total volume of the True Cross was 178,000,000 cubic milimeters but on his time only 3,942,000 cubic milimeters survived. Smyrniotakis noted the largest part (870,760 cubic milimeters) was in Mount Athos, 537,587 in Rome, 516,090 in Brussels, 445,582 in Venice, 436,450 in Ghent and 237,731 in Paris.

Perhaps samples of his blood must have remained there.
*OOOhhh my dear God sorry for questioning you*
Sorry
Sorry
Sorry
Sorry


[edit on 27-2-2007 by Dragonlike]

While I'm not a religious person, I'm married to a Catholic, and she advises that most people know that these "holy relics" are bogus. I mean, come on... You could build a 2-story log cabin out of all of the reported pieces of the Cross that are out there.

— Doc Velocity

Doc_Velocity,
No object with you,
some of them considered to be bogus
but when we speak about pieces of the True Cross, in mount Athos are preserved with great reverence from the time of Alexios Komnenos back at the time of 1081-1118

Each afternoon one of the priest-monks brings out the holy relics to be worshipped. Among them is a piece of the True Cross, the foot of Saint Ann (Mother of Virgin Mary), untouched by decay, the hand of St. Gregory the Theologian, the head of St. Alypios, who lived as a hermit for 60 years on a column in the Paphlagonian desert. These were gifts of the Monastery’s first patron, The Great Emperor Alexios Komnenos (1081-1118).
www.ec-patr.org...

I dunno think this is bogus, perhaps your wife has her reasons to say that...

Edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, about The Talipot tomb and ossuaries which are such that they would have belonged to a rich family, which does not match the historical record for Jesus.

Couldn't the templar knights may have involve in keeping that secret?
They claim they knew (nowdays forgotten) something that could make the pope tremble in his armchair. What if it was that tomb? What if the templars have gathered all these ossuaries and organised them in one place. What would be the best place for Christ and his family's tomb if not in Jerusalem?







[edit on 27-2-2007 by Dragonlike]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this is obviously not an objective source

You are right. It's not objective. But I figured some folks might find it interesting.

Here's another link that some of ya'll might like. OTHER things found in the tomb.

Unobjective Source Alert

Be sure to have a sense of humor or don't bother reading it.