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The greatest injustice/conspiracy in the world - Oppression of Women
page: 3share:
Originally posted by Azazelus
Can you please create another topic to discuss this issue, as you are totally steering my thread off topic.
Thank you.
your right, but this is a subject that can be easily sidetracked because there are so many possible causes being its a social issue and a lot of opinions.
i for one think that women should be happy that we live in a society that says man cannot take what he wants from a woman at will. The fact is, is that if we were all back in the jungle there would be no chance for womans rights for streangth wins the fight.
however women have their own skills, men are physically stronger, but only a woman could stay with a man she doesn't enen like for 2 decades in the name of children and security. Men cannot do that, we are too simple, and even more proud.
women hunt men, even though men say they pick up chicks, unless the girls is on the prowl the boy isn't pickin up anything.
this is interesting:
Canadian anthropologist Peter Frost, under the aegis of University of St Andrews, published a study in March 2006 in the journal Evolution and Human Behavior that says blond hair evolved very quickly at the end of the last Ice Age by means of sexual selection.[4] According to the study, the appearance of blond hair and blue eyes in some northern European women made them stand out from their rivals at a time of fierce competition for scarce males. en.wikipedia.org...
some here argue that women only care about fasion and sex appeal, because society buts the pressure on them to compete.
well the above author seems to think otherwise as do i, that women naturaly hunt men in need of a mate, and i think that todays sex appeal is the ice ages blonde hair and blue eyes.
once conception occurs, what good is man, the child is born, and hunter species are always good at providing for their young. so what good is man. obviously we have not done a lot of good for this world, other than population control, but we have managed to build up enough walls and athourity to keep women under control and with man.
So like women develope traites to stand out for males, males have rules and obligations that keep women with the man for their own agenda.
women want children, and men want female companionship. its either a fair trade or a battle that has to swing in someones favor, rather it be mine.
only....it's men who wanted children....
or maybe just the men who had built a sizable wealth to pass along to the next generation.
if we were back in time to the place that didn't have all those rules and regulations and the strong ruled...well, there is always gonna be someone stronger than you come along who could take what is yours, isn't there? then how would you know weather or not that child is really yours? strong rules regarding marriage and sex were needed to provide men with that guarentee. in exchange for that women received a little more security.
and don't overestimate the weakness of women, there's plenty around who could knock your block off easily. it took an "act of God" to bring women down, men couldn't do it without some religious fervor on their side. remember, back in the most primative time, the Goddess ruled, with very "majical" powers....the powers to create new living men!!!
or maybe just the men who had built a sizable wealth to pass along to the next generation.
if we were back in time to the place that didn't have all those rules and regulations and the strong ruled...well, there is always gonna be someone stronger than you come along who could take what is yours, isn't there? then how would you know weather or not that child is really yours? strong rules regarding marriage and sex were needed to provide men with that guarentee. in exchange for that women received a little more security.
and don't overestimate the weakness of women, there's plenty around who could knock your block off easily. it took an "act of God" to bring women down, men couldn't do it without some religious fervor on their side. remember, back in the most primative time, the Goddess ruled, with very "majical" powers....the powers to create new living men!!!
Some of the Oldest Temples and Churches on earth are in Malta.
These temples are in the shape of a woman, in three dimensions. The worshiper literally enters through the womb and down into the earth. Symbology on many different levels. The oldest Megalithic statues are of women. Some of the oldest carvings found are of women.
Maypole celebrations were sexual in Nature, the beginnings of spring, animals mating, humanity mating, celebrating the end of winter, the beginning of the planting seasons. Humanity used to celebrate Sex and the miracle of life.
These were Wonderfull pagan cultures, the great agrarian age that witnessed agricultural sciences come into their own. These were Matriarchal, (shared responsibilities) and very succesfull.
The success created surplus. Surplus created a need to protect what you could not consume. Trade and profit became highly organized, creating wealth. Local militia's gave way to armies and war. Armies and war created authority for patriarchal systems. Sex and Life became tools and a means to an end.
Patriachal systems took Mother Earth and created Father Heaven to rule above her. The loving goddess became the Jealous and Fearful God. Where humanity celebrated passions and the human experience, they were taught to fear their own desires and Nature.
Through this evolution women lost authority in culture, and just now beginning to take it back. If women intend to continue taking it back it will need to be by force, at the ballotbox and the marketplace. It will need to start with disassembling the advertising and marketing industry and rebuilding cultural priorities from the ground up.
There is no other way.
These temples are in the shape of a woman, in three dimensions. The worshiper literally enters through the womb and down into the earth. Symbology on many different levels. The oldest Megalithic statues are of women. Some of the oldest carvings found are of women.
Maypole celebrations were sexual in Nature, the beginnings of spring, animals mating, humanity mating, celebrating the end of winter, the beginning of the planting seasons. Humanity used to celebrate Sex and the miracle of life.
These were Wonderfull pagan cultures, the great agrarian age that witnessed agricultural sciences come into their own. These were Matriarchal, (shared responsibilities) and very succesfull.
The success created surplus. Surplus created a need to protect what you could not consume. Trade and profit became highly organized, creating wealth. Local militia's gave way to armies and war. Armies and war created authority for patriarchal systems. Sex and Life became tools and a means to an end.
Patriachal systems took Mother Earth and created Father Heaven to rule above her. The loving goddess became the Jealous and Fearful God. Where humanity celebrated passions and the human experience, they were taught to fear their own desires and Nature.
Through this evolution women lost authority in culture, and just now beginning to take it back. If women intend to continue taking it back it will need to be by force, at the ballotbox and the marketplace. It will need to start with disassembling the advertising and marketing industry and rebuilding cultural priorities from the ground up.
There is no other way.
Originally posted by el fuego
Through this evolution women lost authority in culture, and just now beginning to take it back. If women intend to continue taking it back it will need to be by force, at the ballotbox and the marketplace. It will need to start with disassembling the advertising and marketing industry and rebuilding cultural priorities from the ground up.
There is no other way.
are you suggesting that women are going to try and take authority away from man?..... ya right, good luck with that. you talk about tough women, well.... im from the bush and if there is a tough woman (which there is a lot of in the bush) then there is a tougher man, believe me that is just the way it works, anything else is an audity.
women cannot have the power back, because it will make men complete slaves to women, and i for one will not alow that to happen.
I believe in equality, but i also believe in roles. and it is the males role to fight and protect, and it is the females role to raise and nuture, neither one is any good at the opposite without geared training.
Religion tries to control EVERYONE, why the special emphasism on women, boo hoo, get over it, were all getting screwed by religion and false beliefs, the man-woman struggle will continue long after churches are gone (if ever)
you are still seeing this through very personal perspectives.
The Bush..? how is what occurs in the bush going to affect economic and cultural movements in the populated areas..? And the comment about slavery..? what is the rational for that comment...im not sure how to even respond to that.
The power lies in numbers; voting and economic blocks back women. When women organize and begin to sieze back cultural authority, the balance that existed before will restablish itself. Then maybe we can stop spending entire nations wealth on weapons of war and create a culture that Honors life, not destroys it.
The Bush..? how is what occurs in the bush going to affect economic and cultural movements in the populated areas..? And the comment about slavery..? what is the rational for that comment...im not sure how to even respond to that.
The power lies in numbers; voting and economic blocks back women. When women organize and begin to sieze back cultural authority, the balance that existed before will restablish itself. Then maybe we can stop spending entire nations wealth on weapons of war and create a culture that Honors life, not destroys it.
Originally posted by el fuego
you are still seeing this through very personal perspectives.
Yes, the almost rabid personal perspectives surfaced very early in this thread: one of the reasons I chose not to post earlier.
Statistics demonstrate conclusively that women suffer the greatest physical violence -- also, that males comprise the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
YET ---- women comprise the small minority of violent offenders.
So we have males committing most of the violent crimes (murder, rape, bashings, etc) most of these against women.
Cynical lawyers bleat in court in defence of their male clients, claiming (the excuse) that the rapist/murderer was 'himself abused as a child'.
But as statistics indisputably demonstrate, it is FEMALES who are most abused ...... as babies, toddlers, children, teens, adults .... by males !
So WHY aren't the jails filled with female rapists, pedophiles, murderers and other violent criminals ?
It's because females are more evolved. Obviously.
VERY obviously.
WHO has most opportunity to kill ?
Why, WOMEN do, of course.
WHEN is a man least able to defend himself?
When he's having an orgasm --- or moments prior or post orgasm.
How EASY is it to bring a man to orgasm?
VERY !
Yet how many women exploit their numerous opportunities?
FEW.
When is the OTHER easist opportunity to kill a male -- to reduce the male population -- to castrate -- to neuter-- to maim ?
When a male is in infancy. Or childhood.
Yet how many women exploit their numerous opportunities to cull the male population at its weakest: in childhood?
FEW.
All those males out there who imagine they have the whip-hand over females by virtue of their own larger size, bulk and muscles, might like to ponder this.
Men are only as powerful as females allow them to be.
And males should be thanking whatever god they worship on hourly basis for creating women who are demonstrably more mature, more compassionate, more generous, more kind, more decent, more understanding ------- than many of the males they birth, raise, suffer, forgive and support.
i]Can you please create another topic to discuss this issue, as you are totally steering my thread off topic.
your right, but this is a subject that can be easily sidetracked because there are so many possible causes being its a social issue and a lot of opinions.
First off Tom Goose and to you Azazelus..I dont think we are sidetracking this topic at all. I think we are questioning the premise of much of what is going on here. Not necessarily in assent but also in dissent. To me you are obviously trying to censor dissenting or side opinions. This is a very wide ranging topic in its width and breadth. Yet you seem wont to steer it to what it is of which you particularly approve.
i for one think that women should be happy that we live in a society that says man cannot take what he wants from a woman at will. The fact is, is that if we were all back in the jungle there would be no chance for womans rights for streangth wins the fight.
however women have their own skills, men are physically stronger, but only a woman could stay with a man she doesn't enen like for 2 decades in the name of children and security. Men cannot do that, we are too simple, and even more proud.
women hunt men, even though men say they pick up chicks, unless the girls is on the prowl the boy isn't pickin up anything.
As I posted previously. I dont think physically strong is everything. It is the thinking apparatus which properly schooled or diciplined which can overcome almost every physical strength.
I do agree with you Tom that women hunt men..I have had numerous opportunitys to have this confirmed. I dont t hink many men actually realize this. Just because a woman is not actively hunting in the manner of a man does not mean she is not hunting. Some really dumb men out here.
As to the Canadian anthropologist...I dont agree with alot of that premise. I say this because women hunt men. Most of them...and when they are in a hunting mode..sex appeal is the number one tool used. Education and other diciplines go out the door. This too I have had demonstrated over and over. Women care about fashion because it is related to sex appeal and status..ie ..female power. Not just among the men but also very important among the other women. This is where I say women can be very competitive in a manner not seen my many men.
Oh ..by the way ..is this oppression??
some here argue that women only care about fasion and sex appeal, because society buts the pressure on them to compete.
Sex appeal is core..male and female...the problem I have with it is that socially this structure tends to curb one gender while allowing the other to pull out all the stops. This is not equality. It is bias.
This bias is particular and for the reasons I stated in earlier posts..women have control of more of the moneys spent in the marketplace than do men. So consequently sex appeal is the tool used by merchandizers to sell more goods through the avenue of the female psyche. This too is not equality..it is seduction. This is also not oppression.
Once again men need to be smarter than this. Not happening ...because the expectations and thinking of men is so often provincial. Sports/sex/ and conditioning to carry out play for women learned by more sports conditioning. Mens basic requirements are so low compared to the bulk of women out her..socially.
As I have many times stated..take the sex and sex appeal from most of these afternoon talk shows on the boob tube and what do you have left...not much at all.
You can also tell this programming by the amount of sex appeal which has entered the sports arena.
So like women develope traites to stand out for males, males have rules and obligations that keep women with the man for their own agenda.
You are only telling half the story here Goose. Women have lots of ways to keep a man for their own agenda. THe competitive angle I mention is very indicative of this method. Very few of these ways are known by most sports/cheerleader oriented men. You wont find them listed on the talk show "victim dictum " format either.
women want children, and men want female companionship. its either a fair trade or a battle that has to swing in someones favor, rather it be mine.
You are doing it again here...men want children too. Dont sell men short here as so many are wont to do. If you are not aware of this you too will contribute to the practice of male expendability and disposability.
Also and especially today there is nothing fair or equal about this trade.
Social roles today have so obviously made the functionality in the roles...disfunctional. You can tell this by the vitriol of many of the posts here. Yet only one side is expected to make up the difference...in a time of claiming equality. It doesnt make good nonsense...to most people...yet they dont even catch it.
Thanks,
Orangetom
and don't overestimate the weakness of women, there's plenty around who could knock your block off easily. it took an "act of God" to bring women down, men couldn't do it without some religious fervor on their side. remember, back in the most primative time, the Goddess ruled, with very "majical" powers....the powers to create new living men!!!
While I dont agree with you on the Goddess part I do agree with your statement about dont overestimate womans weakness. I have seen this demonstrated several times with my own eyes.
To many men stupidly put emphasis on physical strength. Having lived in the orient for three years I have seen what physically understrength people can do if they put thier minds to it. It like other things in life is a matter of dicipline.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Originally posted by tom goose
are you suggesting that women are going to try and take authority away from man?..... ya right, good luck with that. you talk about tough women, well.... im from the bush and if there is a tough woman (which there is a lot of in the bush) then there is a tougher man, believe me that is just the way it works, anything else is an audity.
women cannot have the power back, because it will make men complete slaves to women, and i for one will not alow that to happen.
I believe in equality, but i also believe in roles. and it is the males role to fight and protect, and it is the females role to raise and nuture, neither one is any good at the opposite without geared training.
Religion tries to control EVERYONE, why the special emphasism on women, boo hoo, get over it, were all getting screwed by religion and false beliefs, the man-woman struggle will continue long after churches are gone (if ever)
one can always DENY the authority over them claimed by another now, can't they?
as far as the role playing bit, I think that the roles can be switched and have been when needed..
what did all those weak women do when their mighty prince charmings went far away for play war during the crusades, what did the women do during the revolution, the world wars? those poor helpless women, left all alone, to take care of everything...without the male to provide for them, protect them, take care of them...
or let's take about those pioneers who traveled west to new lands. why is it that the first state to allow women the right to vote in the US was in the west? could it be that the women had convinced the men there that they were their equals, equally capable as them at firing a gun, at plowing a field, at whatever was need to survive, since they had to be?
the simple fact is that there are many, many fathers out there that are more capable of caring for their children than their mothers are proving to be, and well, there are many mothers that you don't want to anger too much by threatening their young. they are more than capable of protecting them. all the stereotyping and role playing is doing is setting a default, and well, letting things go to hades when that default is wrong.
In very many ways, I am the strong one in my family...I'll live on 4 hours sleep, work 20, have put up some pretty good fights for my kids, I've gone hungry, and won't run when the going gets tough....
can't say this about my husband...
now, should I rule my husband, heck no, I'm too busy for that one...but should I let him rule me?? that is authority I have denied a long time ago!
orange...
just wondering, you keep bringing up daytime tv to support your arguments...
how much do you watch the crap? you seem to know what's on it than I have ever known, or care to know. I always kind of figured that they put that crap on tv during the day because well, back when I was a kid, the world was pretty much male dominated, so, well, I kind of thought they just threw all that crap on during the day because they didn't want the women sitting around all day watching tv...ya know, idle women are dangerous creatures and all that bit...
just wondering, you keep bringing up daytime tv to support your arguments...
how much do you watch the crap? you seem to know what's on it than I have ever known, or care to know. I always kind of figured that they put that crap on tv during the day because well, back when I was a kid, the world was pretty much male dominated, so, well, I kind of thought they just threw all that crap on during the day because they didn't want the women sitting around all day watching tv...ya know, idle women are dangerous creatures and all that bit...
This is becoming confusing in that personal perspectives are being used to draw general conclusions.
If you dont Like or have fear of women, the point of this thread is Moot. No amount of historical record regarding religious oppression will change your mind.
That Humanity worshipped goddesses and nature in General before patriarchal religious systems is fact, We have Historical records and archeological evidence that supports this.
That Women in general have been persecuted through religious avenues is fact, we know the witch burnings and other events took place, we have historical records of these.
What is open to debate is the degree this took place, and how it impacted cutlure in general.
[edit on 23-2-2007 by el fuego]
If you dont Like or have fear of women, the point of this thread is Moot. No amount of historical record regarding religious oppression will change your mind.
That Humanity worshipped goddesses and nature in General before patriarchal religious systems is fact, We have Historical records and archeological evidence that supports this.
That Women in general have been persecuted through religious avenues is fact, we know the witch burnings and other events took place, we have historical records of these.
What is open to debate is the degree this took place, and how it impacted cutlure in general.
[edit on 23-2-2007 by el fuego]
Greetings all. OT, you and I have had this discussion before so I hope you'll forgive me if I reiterate certain aspects that others may have missed
in our previous tet-a-tet.
Women are equal in life though not in function. When society creates disparity in the value of those functions, it equates to lack of value in life.
Being generally opposed to any form of authority, I have been a staunch supporter of the feminist ideals in my personal life; however, I have to admit that if SHTF, 150 years of suffrage will go down the toilet in about 5 minutes as women look to men for protection (mostly FROM other MEN).
We're all in this sinking boat together and we need to quit blaming each other for our soggy shoes and start bailing water.
And btw OT, to answer your question, I have bought a house and 2 trucks for my man (all in his name) only to reap the priveledge of raising his 5 kids by myself (no child support). He was the consumer in the house, not me so if there was a 7:1 disparity in marketplace, I never noticed because I didn't have time to go shopping what with working 2 jobs, homeschooling 3 kids, doing all the cooking, cleaning, paying the bills, etc. When we met, he said, "I like that you don't wear make-up". When we got divorced he said, "You could've fixed yourself up for me once in a while". lol.
I refuse to see myself as a victim or as a second class citizen so when what is obviously gender-based disparity/discrimination raises it's ugly head, I just laugh at the notion that someone thinks they can dictate the terms of my life to me and go ahead and do what I can. I'm 5'10 and 150 pounds of rompin', stompin', mean white woman that doesn't take "go to hell" for an answer. Wouldn't mind staying at home and doing the June Cleaver routine but it's hard to find a male that's more of a man than I am so I just take care of myself.
Spent last summer putting in laminate flooring, linoleum in bathroom, wallpapering son's bedroom, installing a hearth (admittedly looks amateurish), building bookshelves in library, laying carpet in office, building 16'x32' covered deck, etc. I've taught self-defense to an abused women's group and scored at the top of my concealed carry class (I was the only female in the class). Women are capable beings but in a society where men hold all the political and economic clout we are relegated to subjecting ourselves to their wants and men generally don't want capable women. They want pretty women. Hence all the make-up and jewelry kiosks.
Remember that song (Carly Simon, I think)?: You don't like weak women, you get bored so quick and you don't like strong women cuz they're hip to your tricks? It's been dirty for dirty.
We all have value and our functions in society have value. One can not do without the other.
Women are equal in life though not in function. When society creates disparity in the value of those functions, it equates to lack of value in life.
Being generally opposed to any form of authority, I have been a staunch supporter of the feminist ideals in my personal life; however, I have to admit that if SHTF, 150 years of suffrage will go down the toilet in about 5 minutes as women look to men for protection (mostly FROM other MEN).
We're all in this sinking boat together and we need to quit blaming each other for our soggy shoes and start bailing water.
And btw OT, to answer your question, I have bought a house and 2 trucks for my man (all in his name) only to reap the priveledge of raising his 5 kids by myself (no child support). He was the consumer in the house, not me so if there was a 7:1 disparity in marketplace, I never noticed because I didn't have time to go shopping what with working 2 jobs, homeschooling 3 kids, doing all the cooking, cleaning, paying the bills, etc. When we met, he said, "I like that you don't wear make-up". When we got divorced he said, "You could've fixed yourself up for me once in a while". lol.
I refuse to see myself as a victim or as a second class citizen so when what is obviously gender-based disparity/discrimination raises it's ugly head, I just laugh at the notion that someone thinks they can dictate the terms of my life to me and go ahead and do what I can. I'm 5'10 and 150 pounds of rompin', stompin', mean white woman that doesn't take "go to hell" for an answer. Wouldn't mind staying at home and doing the June Cleaver routine but it's hard to find a male that's more of a man than I am so I just take care of myself.
Spent last summer putting in laminate flooring, linoleum in bathroom, wallpapering son's bedroom, installing a hearth (admittedly looks amateurish), building bookshelves in library, laying carpet in office, building 16'x32' covered deck, etc. I've taught self-defense to an abused women's group and scored at the top of my concealed carry class (I was the only female in the class). Women are capable beings but in a society where men hold all the political and economic clout we are relegated to subjecting ourselves to their wants and men generally don't want capable women. They want pretty women. Hence all the make-up and jewelry kiosks.
Remember that song (Carly Simon, I think)?: You don't like weak women, you get bored so quick and you don't like strong women cuz they're hip to your tricks? It's been dirty for dirty.
We all have value and our functions in society have value. One can not do without the other.
Quite frankly, although women and men have SOME things only the one gender can do, like carrying babies [although this might not be so in the future,
with our advancing technology], in other areas, things aren't so black and white, and for the vast majority of tasks both genders can perform, each
individual persons' performance on a task is based on much more than their gender alone.
Not all men are the same, not all women are the same. Women cannot always be the caring nurturer, and they don't always WANT to be. In real life men cannot or do not always want to be the masculine warrior. People are born different individuals, and most will agree that the act of dying shows us that gender/race/physical conditions cease anyway.
trying to shove all women alive into one role does not work, they do not all feel happy in it, they are not all alike. And is reproductive success more important than an already existing humans happiness? Hmm.... how do we know that this life isn't more of a punishment than a privelege?
trying to shove all men into a certain role doesn't work, because they are not all the same. What is the point of keeping our species going if many of them hate their forced-role lives? The universe would continue without us, we are not necessary.
There are lesbians with masculine brains and gay men with feminine brains, its just part of nature. Dualism is a simplified way for the human mind to look at the world; things are far more complicated in some ways and simpler in others. We live in a world of blacks, whites, and many shades of gray. It is not OUR place as human beings to say how things SHOULD work, when life itself calls for what it desires of us when it does, it does not care that we are a woman or a man when we are being threatened and have to show strength, or asked to feel compassion and weakness when we are normally cold and strong.
Women have been opressed due to many factors, the fact that they have been opressed is undeniable. We are, in our mortal skin, a mammal that values physical strength and dominance over anything else. It is our animal nature, to follow the strongest leader, and to dominate those we can dominate for selfish gain. If we want to be truly above the beasts, we might try not acting like them every chance we get.
Not all men are the same, not all women are the same. Women cannot always be the caring nurturer, and they don't always WANT to be. In real life men cannot or do not always want to be the masculine warrior. People are born different individuals, and most will agree that the act of dying shows us that gender/race/physical conditions cease anyway.
trying to shove all women alive into one role does not work, they do not all feel happy in it, they are not all alike. And is reproductive success more important than an already existing humans happiness? Hmm.... how do we know that this life isn't more of a punishment than a privelege?
trying to shove all men into a certain role doesn't work, because they are not all the same. What is the point of keeping our species going if many of them hate their forced-role lives? The universe would continue without us, we are not necessary.
There are lesbians with masculine brains and gay men with feminine brains, its just part of nature. Dualism is a simplified way for the human mind to look at the world; things are far more complicated in some ways and simpler in others. We live in a world of blacks, whites, and many shades of gray. It is not OUR place as human beings to say how things SHOULD work, when life itself calls for what it desires of us when it does, it does not care that we are a woman or a man when we are being threatened and have to show strength, or asked to feel compassion and weakness when we are normally cold and strong.
Women have been opressed due to many factors, the fact that they have been opressed is undeniable. We are, in our mortal skin, a mammal that values physical strength and dominance over anything else. It is our animal nature, to follow the strongest leader, and to dominate those we can dominate for selfish gain. If we want to be truly above the beasts, we might try not acting like them every chance we get.
i[]women cannot have the power back, because it will make men complete slaves to women, and i for one will not alow that to happen.
Tom..are you as big a drama queen as some of the women here? People make themselves slaves mostly by ignorance..male and female.
I believe in equality, but i also believe in roles. and it is the males role to fight and protect, and it is the females role to raise and nuture, neither one is any good at the opposite without geared training.
I dont agree with this at all Tom. Men nuture too. Many women have tried to play through with this one on me and I dont buy it either. Like women hunting for men in a manner which is not obvious to most..Men nuture too in methods not always obvious. Teaching ones daughter how to manage moneys...to take care of herself, her automobile ..to clean, how to read..etc etc these are all nuturing roles. Even the seemingly simple pleasure of teaching ones children to fish is nuturing. To many people sell men short here as if it is only the women doing this. Like women hunting men..just because a man is not doing as would a woman ..does not mean he is not nuturing. Men get sold short here many times by a default setting which is just not true. Much of this selling short is the natural ignorance of the men themselves here. They just dont think of it in this manner...but it is nuturing.
I have actually told a woman I was seeing at the time ..."Why are you in the kitchen till 9 or 9;30 pm cleaning up and running laundry..why arent your children helping you instead of sitting in front of the television. This woman actually thought that this is what mothers do for their children..what mothers are supposed to do. She thought this was nuturing. In teenagers I call this dumb and spoiling rotten. I had to explain to her that this was not raising them to be self sufficient ..it was crippling them. They needed to be cleaning the kitchen after dinner...emptying the trash.. It is a washing machine and a dryer..you dont need a college education to run one. Eventually you teach them to cook and they can have dinner ready when she get off work. You just have to plan out the meals based on what you purchase at the stores. Teaching them to do this and help out was good sense and also in its own way nurturing. IF she had not caught on she would have ruined these teenagers in my opinion. I reckon I was just raised differently.
Also ..conversely..dont sell the women short here either. THey will fight and protect their territory...both from men and especially from other women. Dont for one minute think that because a woman does not fight in the manner of a man that she is not fully capable of doing so.
The woman I am seeing I taught her to shoot and helped her get a concealed carry permit. When we go to practice I get some surgical gloves to protect her $40.00 dollar nail jobs. I dont care as long as she practices.
Dawnstar,
Your question about television..and my television habits. I dont actually have much time for television. 7 AM in the morning here. I just got off work at 6AM. Went in at 6PM last night.
I certainly dont watch those programs I use as faciteous examples. The woman I am seeing when she comes over she watchs them. I go find something else to do. Not intrested.
I do agree with you about the Crap expression. Most of what is on the tube is precisely that. I dawned on me one day awhile back when it occured to me that the approach of the commercial appeal is better and more original than the programming. I realized that this is in fact a sad truth. Now occasionally there is a good movie on the tube or such ...I like the History and discovery channels. At times even the SI Fi..but I so often find myself surfing to get away from commercial after commercial after commercial..ad nauseum only to get disgusted and turn the tube off and get on line.
The last good movie I watched was a movie titled " An Unfinished Life" With Robert Redford. Jennifer Lopez, and Morgan Freeman. I found this to be a very enjoyable movie and I dont particularly like Jenifer Lopez but thought she did a good job in this role.
But yes..I agree it has become mostly crap. It is so often just a wasteland resulting in much channel surfing to find some whisp of decent programming.
Whitewave,
Good to see you again and on this thread. Somewhere in the back of my mind my radar told me you would be showing up here sooner or later.
You bought all that for your man from your career earnings?? Where were you when I was struggling. How about your sisters?? You are one of the few women whom I know then who has done so. Most I know do not purchase such big ticket items for men. They tend not to find this tolerable within the female social fabric. This is real equality to me.
One of my mopeds is broken..I am batting my eyes for you to flashdance me through this problem. I dont wear eye make up however!! Does the male "victim dictum" work with you?? Batting eyes again..!!!????
As to the 7 to 1 disparity in goods in the stores. I never noticed it either for many years. One day I just opened my eyes.
I still stand by what I said..it is not who earns the moneys in a social structure .it is who has the discretionary control over how it is spent. This line of thinking is way to deep for most of the men I know. They are so dumb they think that because they are earning the moneys they are powerful. They would rather trade stories about sports gods and cheerleaders. Most of the women I know can count dollars and cents much faster than most of the men. One of those radar things.
The fact that you or Dawnstar have not been fully able to enjoy this to the extent of many of the women in this social structure does not disavow the premise that this is what we see in most of the stores in this country. It also tells me that this is not oppressed group of "Victims". Especially in the west.
It does tell me that men tend to be some kind of dumb to sit in mute silence when this kind of thing is posted. Once again .not much real thinking going on among many men in this arena.
I have something I need to post to Dock 6 after reading thier thread.
By the way..on the other thread. Survival Techniques. I finally ordered myself a radiation detector. It is a small one ..older type. When I learn how to effeceintly use it I will consider getting a more sophisticated and expensive model.
THanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom
Statistics demonstrate conclusively that women suffer the greatest physical violence -- also, that males comprise the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
Dock 6..I've got to ask..I can help myself anymore.....
Did you go to public school??
You do know that most violence is male on male right?? Not male on female. Yet we decry only male on female in this type of topic. Why is that Dock 6? Why is male on female violence only spoken about as if this is all that happens out here?? Only public education can dumb a people down so far in silence and ignorance.
This is what I mean by my usage of the term here Male expendability and disposability. This is social bias and also oppression by default. It is not equality.
Most violence out here in this world is male on male..not male on female.
I will also remind you that males suffer the greatest number of on the job fatalities and injurys too.. Are womens groups trying to solve this inequality?? Think this through carefully.
Be very careful among people who can think this through outside of what passes for excellence to play thorough now days. This is called a default setting like this computer ..it is supposed to automatically go through unchallanged.
YET ---- women comprise the small minority of violent offenders.
This is going down the tubes quickly. Any look in depth at the news daily will clear this up.
So we have males committing most of the violent crimes (murder, rape, bashings, etc) most of these against women.
Once again..public education at work here.
Cynical lawyers bleat in court in defence of their male clients, claiming (the excuse) that the rapist/murderer was 'himself abused as a child'
Remember the woman who drowned her five kids in Texas...this explains how her lawyers came to her defense or the woman in Georgia or was it South Carolina who drowned her two kids in the back of her car and blamed it on someone else?? What did her lawyers do to try to get her off or reduced??
So WHY aren't the jails filled with female rapists, pedophiles, murderers and other violent criminals ?
It's because females are more evolved. Obviously.
VERY obviously.
I doubt this seriously. The news stories begining to come out are showing the opposite. These are only the storys coming out for which we see..how many never make the nationwide media.
What is going on among female teachers...lately?? I dont ever recall this when I was growing up.
What was that story about the woman astronaut?? A professional woman right ..educated...military officer..et al..etc etc. I am very sorry this story got eclipsed by a total air head like that blonde bimbo who recently passed away. I thought the astronaut story much more newsworthy. Was this female evolution?? THe astronaut I mean .not the bimbo...the bimbo speaks for itself....evolution...NOT!!!!!
The rest of your post is like textbook public education...ie ..television education.
I do not find most women more mature. I often find when looking past the surface fluff..that maturity in many women appears to be maturity because of social expectations of or on someone else. This is not the same as maturity.
Female maturity does not come from fancy slogans or lines like used here in your post. Nor from buying this product or that to give the appearence of maturity. Maturity in a female like a male is internal first ..not external.
Real maturity in women as well as men shows clearly in hard difficult times not in good times. Good times only tend to delude many into belief systems and default settings. Hard times will burst the defaults quickly.
One of the women I respect on these threads is Whitewave. I think you would do well to take up these views on your post with her. I think she would be able to clue you into alot of things in a down to earth manner.
While we dont always agree I find Whitewave to be very level headed and not given to histronics or overly emotional in her posts. I can respect this in a woman..or a man for that matter.
Power as I know it is a very delicate two edged sword. It can cut both ways if not properly handled. Power is often highly overated and those who have ever had positions of power and authority over others know intimately that power comes with its own price and handicaps and these are usually far more weighty than any apparent benifits of power. This is what a knowlegable mature person knows with instant clarity....male and female. Power is a responsibilty...and often not at all glorious. It is not all it appears to be ..unless one is an egomaniac.
One more thing....
Yet how many women exploit their numerous opportunities to cull the male population at its weakest: in childhood??
You really, really, really... need to think this statement through.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Im going to be part of the derailment that has happened to this thread. Sorry! Ive tried to sum up in short sentences a few things orangetom has
said. Im not quoting verbatim, only by what I understand.
"Men are dumb, very dumb"
Orangetom, you have consistently referred to men as dumb. They are not. Do you consider yourself dumb? I dont, you come across as someone who has done a lot of reading and thinking. So unless you believe all men are dumb except yourself, then I dont think you really believe that 'men are dumb' if you consider yourself being dumb too.
"Women rule"
The impression I have is that you believe women rule society, more specifically the American one. Your observations of corporate advertising and media programs tell you this. To me thats backward, women AND men are targeted by corporations to reap maximum profit. Is it evil and wrong that certain colours or smells will 'catch a woman’s' eye'? No it is not, just how it is not wrong when my doctor hits my knee with that little hammer and my leg swings in a kick.
Corporations fund and hire psychologists for many many years now to find ways to make us buy their products. And for many many years they have been grooming us to be consumers. We send our best minds to Universities, our children, so they can learn how humans work, only to use that information against us.
Who rules? Not 'men' or 'women'. But a group of elite men and women.
"Society is in favor of women"
Society as it stands is in favor of no one. We are ALL game. Break down society into groups and they will all have their + and -, not one group stands out to me as being the most favorable. Not even men. All I see is the statistics of male suicide for 20-30's and I KNOW men are not favored, and nor are women.
Men are not dumb victims of clever manipulating overly sexualised women.
Women are not helpless victims of a male agenda of oppression and violence.
99.9% of the world population has been born into a pre-existing society that is about 'work and death'. All groups have + and - aspects, for instance being a man in America verses a man in India will have its pros and cons.
"Men are dumb, very dumb"
Orangetom, you have consistently referred to men as dumb. They are not. Do you consider yourself dumb? I dont, you come across as someone who has done a lot of reading and thinking. So unless you believe all men are dumb except yourself, then I dont think you really believe that 'men are dumb' if you consider yourself being dumb too.
"Women rule"
The impression I have is that you believe women rule society, more specifically the American one. Your observations of corporate advertising and media programs tell you this. To me thats backward, women AND men are targeted by corporations to reap maximum profit. Is it evil and wrong that certain colours or smells will 'catch a woman’s' eye'? No it is not, just how it is not wrong when my doctor hits my knee with that little hammer and my leg swings in a kick.
Corporations fund and hire psychologists for many many years now to find ways to make us buy their products. And for many many years they have been grooming us to be consumers. We send our best minds to Universities, our children, so they can learn how humans work, only to use that information against us.
Who rules? Not 'men' or 'women'. But a group of elite men and women.
"Society is in favor of women"
Society as it stands is in favor of no one. We are ALL game. Break down society into groups and they will all have their + and -, not one group stands out to me as being the most favorable. Not even men. All I see is the statistics of male suicide for 20-30's and I KNOW men are not favored, and nor are women.
Men are not dumb victims of clever manipulating overly sexualised women.
Women are not helpless victims of a male agenda of oppression and violence.
99.9% of the world population has been born into a pre-existing society that is about 'work and death'. All groups have + and - aspects, for instance being a man in America verses a man in India will have its pros and cons.
Thanks for your kind words, OT. Sorry, the batting of eyelashes doesn't work at all. Took awhile but I finally realized that my finances always
improve greatly when I get the men out of my life. Ain't taking any more to raise. (Nothin' but love for ya, brother)
I've found by personal experience that men don't really want what they say they want. Treat a man with mutuality and respect and he thinks you're "not feminine". Treat a man like crap and he thinks (rightly) that you're a shrew. Don't wear make-up and he says "you're letting yourself go". Wear make-up and he says, "you trying to snag some other man?" You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. And men say women are illogical?!
We may all disagree about whether there is or is not equality between the sexes but there is definitely injustice by men aimed at women. In high school I was told point blank that I HAD to take home economics class for my elective and COULD NOT take auto mechanics or wood working (that I had signed up for). When I asked "why?" I was flatly told, "because you're a girl". I dropped out of high school over that and taught myself to do much of my own car work and built my own deck that is the envy of the neighborhood. Things are different now and my girls were allowed to pick any elective in high school but only because women like me pitched fits over the injustice (and stupidity) of such inequality. I have been denied housing because I was a single mother. The moronic landlord actually had the unmitigated temerity to tell me to my face that despite my credit history, good job, etc. that he would not rent to me because "the first man that comes along will sweep you away and I'll be out a tenant". I took my good credit and BOUGHT a house in my name, doubled the payments every month and will have it paid for in 2 more years. This is the 2nd house where I've done that; the first one was given to my oldest daughter. When my husband and I both hired on to a company and were given the same job title, same work load, same everything except pay (he was given .50cents/hour more) I complained. The boss said, "he's the head of the house and has to support you and needs to make more money". !!!!!! INJUSTICE!! Rather than turn him in to the ACLU or hire an attorney, I took classes at night to train in a field where I could set my own hours and dictate my own pay. I refuse to be a victim of some misogynist morons' mentality. That shop is now closed down for OSHA violations (I didn't turn them in) and I still have my training.
The point of all these examples is to draw attention away from the victim mentality (male or female) and focus on solutions. There will always be injustice in the world until God Almighty straightens it out. Until then we all use whatever tools we have to correct the wrongs in our little corner of the world whenever we can. For women to give in to the victim mentality and cry "not fair" only emphasizes and exagerates what inequality there may be. Honestly, how often do you hear a man whinning, "not fair! you got more than me" ? If you see injustice, do your best to correct it with a reasonable, rational attitude. Failing that.....a 9 inch cast iron skillet works wonders. lol
I've found by personal experience that men don't really want what they say they want. Treat a man with mutuality and respect and he thinks you're "not feminine". Treat a man like crap and he thinks (rightly) that you're a shrew. Don't wear make-up and he says "you're letting yourself go". Wear make-up and he says, "you trying to snag some other man?" You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. And men say women are illogical?!
We may all disagree about whether there is or is not equality between the sexes but there is definitely injustice by men aimed at women. In high school I was told point blank that I HAD to take home economics class for my elective and COULD NOT take auto mechanics or wood working (that I had signed up for). When I asked "why?" I was flatly told, "because you're a girl". I dropped out of high school over that and taught myself to do much of my own car work and built my own deck that is the envy of the neighborhood. Things are different now and my girls were allowed to pick any elective in high school but only because women like me pitched fits over the injustice (and stupidity) of such inequality. I have been denied housing because I was a single mother. The moronic landlord actually had the unmitigated temerity to tell me to my face that despite my credit history, good job, etc. that he would not rent to me because "the first man that comes along will sweep you away and I'll be out a tenant". I took my good credit and BOUGHT a house in my name, doubled the payments every month and will have it paid for in 2 more years. This is the 2nd house where I've done that; the first one was given to my oldest daughter. When my husband and I both hired on to a company and were given the same job title, same work load, same everything except pay (he was given .50cents/hour more) I complained. The boss said, "he's the head of the house and has to support you and needs to make more money". !!!!!! INJUSTICE!! Rather than turn him in to the ACLU or hire an attorney, I took classes at night to train in a field where I could set my own hours and dictate my own pay. I refuse to be a victim of some misogynist morons' mentality. That shop is now closed down for OSHA violations (I didn't turn them in) and I still have my training.
The point of all these examples is to draw attention away from the victim mentality (male or female) and focus on solutions. There will always be injustice in the world until God Almighty straightens it out. Until then we all use whatever tools we have to correct the wrongs in our little corner of the world whenever we can. For women to give in to the victim mentality and cry "not fair" only emphasizes and exagerates what inequality there may be. Honestly, how often do you hear a man whinning, "not fair! you got more than me" ? If you see injustice, do your best to correct it with a reasonable, rational attitude. Failing that.....a 9 inch cast iron skillet works wonders. lol
Orangetom, you have consistently referred to men as dumb. They are not. Do you consider yourself dumb? I dont, you come across as someone who has done a lot of reading and thinking. So unless you believe all men are dumb except yourself, then I dont think you really believe that 'men are dumb' if you consider yourself being dumb too.
Yes, I most certainly have Dae. I will continue to do so. Most of the men I know cannot understand a simple concept like Male Expendability and Disposability. Way to deep for them. Now the sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition ..it is almost univeral in the west. Most men can understand this ..with the possible exception of me. I have no intrest in it. THese men have feelings and concerns and emotions to accompany them but are unable to even put them in to vocal form outside of narrow constraints. With some of them it is like the lightbulb is dim in there.
By the way..I am not particularly bright but I can see much of this going on right in front of us...daily.
"Women rule"
The impression I have is that you believe women rule society, more specifically the American one.
My biggest beef or dissent is that especially in the west this is not a oppressed group of victims. This is a very easy dogma to foist off on the type of male I describe the above positions due to little thinking going on. Men are often economically and hence politically defaulted to the curb by this technique.
Your observations of corporate advertising and media programs tell you this. To me thats backward, women AND men are targeted by corporations to reap maximum profit.
I dont entirely disagree with you here. Women are indeed targeted greatly by media and corporations. No argument here from me. The market share dedicated to women and children is huge. These corporations know that they can get to the womans insecuritys by appealing to her sexuality..her femminism...her concerns about her children. Women are by far easily marketed by these insecuritys more than men. Hence if you sell the womans insecuritys you can get to the males wallet if she has a man plus her wallet if she works. Men are pretty basic here. Not as much insecurity to market or to which to appeal. It doesnt take a genius to see that over time with this kind of seduction you can ,in a manner of speaking ,sell the very soul of a nation from its core beliefs and turn them into very accomplished consumers..not thinkers.
This conduct is to me predatory on the part of the merchants and media.
It is a subtilty and seduction of which many are totally unawares verses what you so aptly describe. It is good that you know this. Gives one hope. More people need to know this and what it means across the social structure.
Men are catered to here in this market ...I dont agree with the method here..but the appeal is in such a narrow corridor as compared to the women.
Corporations fund and hire psychologists for many many years now to find ways to make us buy their products. And for many many years they have been grooming us to be consumers. We send our best minds to Universities, our children, so they can learn how humans work, only to use that information against us.
No argument from me here again and I am often insulted by the process when I bother to watch enough boob tube to see it. Hence my statement to Dawnstar about the programming verses the commercial appeal. The commercial appeal when you realize how the string is baited in front of you is much more potent and original than the television programming.
It is no different in the magazines or on the radio. It just lacks the visual setting or appeal.
Men are not dumb victims of clever manipulating overly sexualised women.
Women are not helpless victims of a male agenda of oppression and violence.
Thanks for this refreshing view. However I will add something to this with my view. Men are to me primarily victims of their own ignorance about the true nature of what they see in front of them daily. They shoot themselves in the foot here. This to me is primarily the fault of the male..not the female. This is why you and others so often see me state..."What a dumb bunch of males."
But hey!!!! How about those LA Lakers??? Man was that a great game or what!!!!??
Whitewave,
Thanks for your kind words, OT. Sorry, the batting of eyelashes doesn't work at all. Took awhile but I finally realized that my finances always improve greatly when I get the men out of my life. Ain't taking any more to raise. (Nothin' but love for ya, brother)
Shoooot!!!! Kicked to the curb again!!!!
Actually I find pretty much the same thing with women and finances..but I keep coming back to the arena. Whats wrong with us Whitewave? Is there a male fatale??
I wonder sometimes if there is some truth to that buisness that some social observers claim about people being drawn to certain types over and over again though at some level we know or find that theyare actually bad for us in the long run.
As to make up..some women are horrible at it.. horrible. I dont care if a woman is made up all the time. If she wants to fine with me ..if not Im ok with that too..just dont over do it to the point of absurdity. My requirements of a woman are internal first. I've had to many let downs with the other types. I am not instrested in a porcelin statue to take down once in a while to run my hands over , dust , and then put back up on the shelf. Thats just me Whitewave.
You wanted to take auto mechanics?? I have no problem with this. I am aware that at one time it was so. Not so much today. Also excellent that you taught yourself to do much of it. Same thing I did ..on the job. Also great about building a deck. I did the same here at my home. I finally put one of those covered swings on it you see at Home Depot. This was not my idea but a womans. I never would have considered it. I was not keen on it at first. Now Oda Mae and I often fall asleep rocking slowly on this very swing and she purrs while keeping me company.
For women to give in to the victim mentality and cry "not fair" only emphasizes and exagerates what inequality there may be. Honestly, how often do you hear a man whinning, "not fair! you got more than me" ? If you see injustice, do your best to correct it with a reasonable, rational attitude. Failing that.....a 9 inch cast iron skillet works wonders. lol
LOL LOL LOL!!!
No argument here..succinctly stated. I dont care for whiney men as well as whiney women. What especially concerns me is that some of these types are becoming leaders now days.
I am up standing the night watch here again..going to raid the refrigerator and put on a pot of coffee with some amaretto. Bon Appetit.
Thanks again for your post Whitewave.
Orangetom
Originally posted by orangetom1999
Yes, I most certainly have Dae. I will continue to do so.
Ok, cant change you there but maybe I could persuade you to say 'most men are dumb'? Seems like it gives a fair chance for the other males on ATS, because I see alot of bright intelligent males here.
My biggest beef or dissent is that especially in the west this is not a oppressed group of victims.
My view on this? Women in America, Australia and a few European countries are the least oppressed group (of women) in the world. However, I also see that most humans are being oppressed, that 'work and death' thing I spoke of.
I dont entirely disagree with you here. Women are indeed targeted greatly by media and corporations. No argument here from me. The market share dedicated to women and children is huge. These corporations know that they can get to the womans insecuritys by appealing to her sexuality..her femminism...her concerns about her children.
I would love to carry that on a bit further. Corporations not only play on insecurities but they create them too. They also play up on the fear of failure and death.
Women are by far easily marketed by these insecuritys more than men. Hence if you sell the womans insecuritys you can get to the males wallet if she has a man plus her wallet if she works. Men are pretty basic here. Not as much insecurity to market or to which to appeal.
Do you have links or some evidence to support this claim? There is a fellow poster on ATS, he was in the advertising industry for some time, Ill have to ask him what he thinks of your statement.
Men are to me primarily victims of their own ignorance about the true nature of what they see in front of them daily. They shoot themselves in the foot here. This to me is primarily the fault of the male..not the female. This is why you and others so often see me state..."What a dumb bunch of males."
Yes, ignorance! Remember I mentioned how we send our children to universities and that knowledge is kept away from the general populace and used against us? As a society we have sent out young to learn, we hoped they will come back and share that knowledge and benefit us all. This hasnt happened, oh we get silly studies that tell us "Kissing your sister is horrible and wrong" Well we already know that! Tell us how to cope! Tell us how we work! Tell us why we do what we do!
But hey!!!! How about those LA Lakers??? Man was that a great game or what!!!!??
Games are fine and I think if you take corporations out of the equation they would probably settle into something to more of a appropriate level of addiction
"Every society recognizes a particular emotional difference between men and women...the male strength and dominance, and the female gentleness and endurance portrayed in our novels and movies mirror not merely our society's view of the emotional natures of men and women, but the views of every society that has ever existed..."
i see what you are all saying, but i havn't heard anyone hear consider the fact that this is human nature. Maybe it is not religion, or the status quo, or a mass conspiracy. this is just human nature.
I dont know this dr. goldberg from a hole in the ground, and i could very well get a lot of grief from you guys for posting this, but doesn't it make sense?
break away all the fabric of our society and consider what it would take for the human species to survive in the harsh world, not the violent male dominated society that we created, but the fight for the top spot on the food chain? it was our brains that got us here to a degree, but it was also a lot of strain labour that was needed from the man. Men are stronger, and for all you poor boys out there that got beat up by girls, understand it was not because they were tough for being girls, it was because you were weak for a man.
but away with the who can beat who in an armwrestle, there still needs to be order in any species for it to survive.
Socialization "does not consist primarily of parents telling little boys to be 'aggressive' and little girls to be 'nurturant'--these tendencies exist without socialization--but of developing the skills and attitudes that make best use of such tendencies as already exist." He adds, "To believe that males should not have a stronger dominance tendency...is to hope for the impossible."
www.leaderu.com...
you give it catch phrases like "every ship needs a captain" or you can except it for the reality that it is. human nature.
and to claim brutality towards women...well, i would like to see the numbers added up. korea, veitnam, ww1,and2, iraq, iraq, cambodia, and how many women died compared to men. How many men willingly dressed themselves in uniform to go out and die? its sick, men were sick, society is sick, but males will always dominate because it is in our genes and it is a part of our nature within this species.
look at lions, the women hunt, but the men still assume control. and in this case especially, the female lion could do a lot of damage to a male in combat, but still the female follows the male. insects are different, a lot of species are different, but humans are the way we are, especially when it comes to self empathy, what other creature is capable of that?
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