2000 year old stone carving of the 10 commandments in New Mexico?

Originally posted by Will To Power
Here is what a student of ancient Hebrew has to say about it:

...linguistically, some of the characters used could not possibly have been used by any Hebrew (or other Jew /Christian) people from 2000 years ago.
I'm open minded to the idea of ancient Hebrews somehow making it to North America, but this tablet has several errors no self respecting Hebrew-writer would make.

... but I would stake my life on the idea that this stone was not chiselled by an ancient Hebrew, or an experienced writer of the ancient Hebrew letter system, and probably not even by a Jew.

Source

The fact that this person does not think an 'ancient Hebrew' or Jew chiselled the stone does not detract from this astonishing find. I have yet to read any qoutes from scholars disputing the ancient dating that has been attributed to it. That I think is the most important aspect of this find in my opinion.

Though again, that is just my opinion.

the paleo-Hebrew alphabet was only discovered from archaeological inscriptions in the Middle East over the past 100 years.

Some researchers are saying its paleo hebrew, others that its more like a dialect of samaritan.

Researcher David Deal, to whom we owe credit for a drawing of the site, has identified the eclipse astronomically as occurring on September 15, 107 B. C. E.

I doubt that you can get astromically accurate reconstructions of the solar system, such that you can get the date of a particular eclipse, from crude scratches on a rock. Where is the photo of the scratches? What says it was an eclipse?
Why does that mean it was a jew who made the scratches? They are saying that that was the date of rosh hoshana. So what, it was the eclipse that was being noted, not the jewish holiday. Was this eclipse even visible from israel?

I think a big question is was there cultures or societies that used or knew paleo-Hebrew 500 or so years ago?

If it was definitly paleo-hebrew. As noted, there are greek and samaritan letters being used.

Interesting artifact, either way.

Here is a professor who has a theory:

Like Melzer, UNM history professor Ferenc Szasz believes this to be the correct translation, he also has a theory on who the mysterious author might be. “I think it’s old, but not pre-Columbian , more likely from the 18th century,” Szasz said Near the large rock are the initials A.M. the same initials are also present at Inscription Rock at El Morro near Grants. The initials are attributed to Andres Muñiz , chief interpreter of the 1776 Dominguez-Escalante Expedition.

Silvestre Velez de Escalante, a Franciscan priest, and his superior Francisco Domínguez , were looking for a northern route to Monterey, in California, from Santa Fe.

Known to be versed in a number of language skills, Muñiz also might have had knowledge of ancient written languages.

Domínguez treats Muñiz and his brother harshly in his diary. “They manifested their little or entire lack of faith and their total unfitness for such an enterprise,” Domínguez wrote.

Domínguez ordered that the sole mission of the expedition was “to strengthen the people of this nation in their good intention of becoming Christians.”

Szasz contended that Muñiz may have retaliated against the priest by inscribing text from the Old Testament at a sacred American Indian site covered with hundreds of petroglyphs

source

The fact that this person does not think an 'ancient Hebrew' or Jew chiselled the stone does not detract from this astonishing find.

If you look at each symbol they are remarkably similar. Plus you have other linguist saying it is paleo-Hebrew

And we have other linguists saying that they more closely resemble samaritan texts. And it includes greek letters.

will to power
more likely from the 18th century,” Szasz said Near the large rock are the initials A.M. the same initials are also present at Inscription Rock at El Morro near Grants.

Apparently no one has compared the weathering on the AM carving and the Decalogue carving.

Originally posted by Will To Power
Here is a professor who has a theory:

Like Melzer, UNM history professor Ferenc Szasz believes this to be the correct translation, he also has a theory on who the mysterious author might be. “I think it’s old, but not pre-Columbian , more likely from the 18th century,” Szasz said Near the large rock are the initials A.M. the same initials are also present at Inscription Rock at El Morro near Grants. The initials are attributed to Andres Muñiz , chief interpreter of the 1776 Dominguez-Escalante Expedition.

Silvestre Velez de Escalante, a Franciscan priest, and his superior Francisco Domínguez , were looking for a northern route to Monterey, in California, from Santa Fe.

Known to be versed in a number of language skills, Muñiz also might have had knowledge of ancient written languages.

Domínguez treats Muñiz and his brother harshly in his diary. “They manifested their little or entire lack of faith and their total unfitness for such an enterprise,” Domínguez wrote.

Domínguez ordered that the sole mission of the expedition was “to strengthen the people of this nation in their good intention of becoming Christians.”

Szasz contended that Muñiz may have retaliated against the priest by inscribing text from the Old Testament at a sacred American Indian site covered with hundreds of petroglyphs

source

There are some scholars stating that the ancient hebrew was not discovered until a 100 years ago. So if the above theory is true you have a situation where ancient hebrew was known 250 years ago then lost and forgotten for another 150 years then rediscovered a 100 years ago.

Plus it states he "may have known ancient languages". Is there any proof he did know ancient languages?

[edit on 15-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

I have watched the boards for about 6 months now, and i would say this is one of the most interesting things i have seen here.

What would be the motive of faking this stone, what would one stand to gain by it?

What would be the motive of faking this stone, what would one stand to gain by it?

I dont know but I would love to hear from any linguist or any other experts experts on this site.

[edit on 15-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Plus it states he "may have known ancient languages". Is there any proof he did know ancient languages?

I agree it doesn't make sense to say that this spanish explorer knew either paleo-hebrew, nor that he knew a byzantine era samaritan dialect. Anyone contending that he made the carving would have to show that the carvings were contemporary by the weathering studies (actually, anyone in any position to do so and who says anything about this stone in an official capacity should compare the two).

Even IF one argues that this AM was in actuality a crypto-jew from iberia, you wouldn't have an explantation for why a jew would know anything about samaritan dialects, since jews consider samaritans to be something liek apostates or 'non-jews'.

nameca
What would be the motive of faking this stone, what would one stand to gain by it?

Well, we know that there are people in the midwest making up inscriptions and carvings, for example there are lots of fake 'norse' carvings in the region (magically, they happen to be in places where the was a norwegian and scandanavian population at the time of their 'discovery' ). Its hard to speculate on what the motivations are.

If you wanted to show the the old testament, or new testament, or book of mormon, or any number of other things were 'true', you might be motivated to do this.

You might also just like messing with people.

Heck, you might even be motivated to make it just on a whim, maybe you know some of these languages, and think that it'd be 'neat' to see it carved into stone in person, without ever intending to defraud anyone.

[edit on 15-2-2007 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
And we have other linguists saying that they more closely resemble samaritan texts. And it includes greek letters.

will to power
more likely from the 18th century,” Szasz said Near the large rock are the initials A.M. the same initials are also present at Inscription Rock at El Morro near Grants.

Apparently no one has compared the weathering on the AM carving and the Decalogue carving.

I think people need to take also into consideration that carving symbols into a rock is not going to produce letters that always have the correct shape and orientation. It's hard work and each slip of the tool is going to produce some variation from the norm. Especially if this was not done by some master stonemason. For comparison, look at the way people wrote and spelled English words in the 19th century "Old West", or even what text messaging has done to the language today.

Even IF one argues that this AM was in actuality a crypto-jew from iberia, you wouldn't have an explantation for why a jew would know anything about samaritan dialects, since jews consider samaritans to be something liek apostates or 'non-jews'.

If the stone is indeed authentic then I think it explains a lot of the anomalous artifacts found throughout north and south america that are
similar to what is known to come from the middle east.

And unless or until someone can provide some convincing evidence that its a hoax Im leaning toward it being the real thing.

I think people need to take also into consideration that carving symbols into a rock is not going to produce letters that always have the correct shape and orientation. It's hard work and each slip of the tool is going to produce some variation from the norm. Especially if this was not done by some master stonemason. For comparison, look at the way people wrote and spelled English words in the 19th century "Old West", or even what text messaging has done to the language today.

Im sorry for posting this gif again but you cannot ignore the similarities. I do not believe in coincidences.

I find it amazing Marduk has not yet posted to debunk or ridicule this.
I have this picture in my mind of him researching diligently to come up with the information to claim this is a hoax. (which Im open still open minded to the possibility)
And yet surprisingly I would really like to hear his opinion on this.

P.S.
To Byrd: I would really love to hear what you have to say about this.


[edit on 15-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

This has already been discussed at least once, in this thread.

Byrd was one of the members involved in that thread.

From Byrd:

I want to know where he got the stories about it. The other inscription is also clearly very new. It could be 1930's, but I tend to think it's more modern.

It might well be from the 1930's or even more modern as Byrd claims but what about the claims from people saying it was known in the 1850's?

People were already aware of the inscription when New Mexico became a territory in 1850, but no one could read it back then, mainly because the old-Hebrew or Phoenician alphabet in which this rock is inscribed was mostly unknown among scholars or archaeologists at that time.

www.webcom.com...

There are several others I can add to this and I have know idea whether or not they are legitimate.

So what you have appears on the surface is knowledge of the stone inscriptions from at least the 1850's and if thats the case its supposedly agreed that knowledge of paleo- Hebrew was not known until some time after that.



[edit on 15-2-2007 by etshrtslr]

posted by etshrtslr
I find it amazing Marduk has not yet posted to debunk or ridicule this.

heres a few facts for you to digest
firstly The Book of Mormon contains Phoenecian names and many early mormon scholars (i.e. the faithful) believed that Phonecian was a holy language so studied it
the area that this was found was in New Mexico. The Mormon Battalion was the only religious "unit" in American military history serving from July 1846 to July 1847 during the Mexican War. they were stationed for most of the time in Kansas and New Mexico

now this is the important bit so pay attention
the mormons believe in the ten commandments
here are the Mormon commandments in bold with a translation from the Los Lunas Decalogue stone inserted between in lower case
1) THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
There must be no other gods before my face.
2) THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE.
You must not make any idol.
3) THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.
You must not take the name of Jehovah in vain.
4) REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY.
Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy
5) HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER
Honour your father and your mother so that your days may be long in the land that Jehovah your God has given to you.
6) THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
You must not murder.
7) THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.
You must not commit adultery.
8) THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.
You must not steal.
9) THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
You must not give a false witness against your neighbour.
10)THOU SHALT NOT COVET
You must not desire the wife of your neighbour nor anything that is his

specifically all the original copies of the ten commandments always always always mention as commandment number ten that one of the things you should not covet are your neighbours Ox. Because the Hebrews who originally wrote those commandments were shepherds and herdsman
and the mormons werent
so clearly the list on the los lunas stone contains the mormon commandments
so its can't be any older than 1828 when those commandments were compiled and seeing as there were mormons in the area in 1847 it doesnt take a brain surgeon to work out where this came from

posted by etshrtslr
I have this picture in my mind of him researching diligently to come up with the information to claim this is a hoax. (which Im open still open minded to the possibility)

took me about 30 minutes when I saw your request

posted by etshrtslr
I would really like to hear his opinion on this.

how did I do ?

Originally posted by centurion1211
I think people need to take also into consideration that carving symbols into a rock is not going to produce letters that always have the correct shape and orientation. It's hard work and each slip of the tool is going to produce some variation from the norm. Especially if this was not done by some master stonemason.

Didn't the Romans use "V" for"U" on stone inscriptions because of the difficulty carving? Mind you they done "S" ok

how did I do ?

Thanks for replying Marduk.

I dont know how you did because you still did not address the claims made by some that paleo-hebrew was not discovered until around 100 years ago. And if that is indeed true how would the Mormons know anything about paleo-Hebrew prior to the 1850's?

HOPI STONE TABLETS
There was the cycle of the mineral, the rock.
There was the cycle of the plant.
And now we are in the cycle of the animals coming to the
end of that and beginning the cycle of the human being.

When we get into the cycle of the human being
the highest and greatest powers that we have
will be released to us.

They will be released from that light or soul that we carry to the mind. But right now we're coming to the end of the animal cycle and we have investigated ourselves and learned what it is to be like an animal on this earth.

At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together they say on an island which is now beneath the water and He said to the human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm going to change you to four colors, but I'm going to give you some teachings and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about."

And he said, "During the cycle of time I'm going to give each of you TWO STONE TABLETS. When I give you those stone tablets, don't cast those upon the ground. If any of the brothers and sisters of the four directions and the four colors cast their tablets on the ground, not only, will human beings have a hard time, but almost the earth itself will die."

And so he gave each of us a responsibility and we call that the Guardianship.

To the Indian people, the red people, he gave the Guardianship of the earth. We were to learn during this cycle of time the teachings of the earth, the plants that grow from the earth, the foods that you can eat, and the herbs that are healing so that when we came back together with the other brothers and sisters we could share this knowledge with them. Something good was to happen on the earth.

To the South, he gave the yellow race of people the Guardianship of the wind. They were to learn about the sky and breathing and how to take that within ourselves for spiritual advancement. They were to share that with is at this time.

To the West He gave the black race of people the Guardianship of the water. They were to learn the teachings of the water which is the chief of the elements, being the most humble and the most powerful.

To the North He gave the white race of people the Guardianship of the fire. If you look at the center of many of the things they do you will find the fire. They say a light bulb is the white man's fire. If you look at the center of a car you will find a spark. If you look at the center of the airplane and the train you will find the fire. The fire consumes, and also moves. This is why it was the white brothers and sisters who began to move upon the face of the earth and reunite us as a human family.

And so a long time passed, and the Great Spirit gave each of the four races two stone tablets. Ours are kept at the Hopi Reservation in Arizona at Four Corners Area on 3rd Mesa.

I talked to people from the black race and their stone tablets are at the foot of Mount Kenya. They are kept by the Kukuyu Tribe.

www.crystalinks.com...

I am not sure if this fits, but ledgend says that 2000 years ago the son of God walked with the Hopi people teaching them about this very thing.

These might have been copied from the original stones. I wonder if there would be a way to compare some of these writings.

IF this stone message is authentic......
There IS a north American parrallel that predates it ...
The HOPI indians who live in the four corners area,(im not sure how close that is but pretty close,)
They still have their origonal tablets which were also given them by God presumably,Which are supposed to be their commandments...
These tablets are not exactly for public viewing may contain similar writing or similar commandments in HOPI language...
I am curious now, because i have heard that they await a messenger,the seventh in a series that were promised them, who will carry with him the broken piece missing from the corner of their tabs....
This will be the foretold great White brother who will teach them and the rest of the world how to live.

On another note there are certainly egytpian writing symbols on artifacts dug from the mounds, of north americas mid west,
If this is proven then why wouldnt there be Jewish slaves with the egyptians?I believe this predates the exodus, and so would fit right in with bible history as well.
I am not sure whether the jews of that time used the smbols though in writing, but presume the must have....

If the Mormons did it, they would have put thou shalt not covet thy nieghbours WIVES not wife!


[edit on 15-2-2007 by bergle]

I am not sure if this fits, but ledgend says that 2000 years ago the son of God walked with the Hopi people teaching them about this very thing.

I do not know enough about the Hopi to comment on the specific text. That being said Im not one to dismiss legends out of hand because they do not fit the current paradigm of accepted knowledge.

I think it all might be related in some way. Im not sure if and how this specifically fits but I thank you for the contribution.