Doubletree Hotel Video

err, all this is to the poster who said the simple explanation is that the story is true.

they only wanted to spend 3 million dollars to investigate 911... but added 11 million to that.

on yahoo answers it says that the Challenger disaster and Clinton investigation both cost 50 million each.

[edit on 15-2-2007 by Starbuck]

It was a missle from the United States of America that hit the Pentagon. The United States, or CIA killed alot of people who deserved much better than what they got from the country they SERVED.

Originally posted by Royal76
It was a missle from the United States of America that hit the Pentagon. The United States, or CIA killed alot of people who deserved much better than what they got from the country they SERVED.

Bullocks!

Originally posted by pmexplorer
Caustic,

I have examined the video you speak of from infowars and I think I can see what you are mentioning in your previous post.
It seems a white object moves very quickly from left to right in the direction of the pentagon at high speed and at the time of the explosion, almost seemingly along the highway in front, BUT while I concur there is an object I do not believe anyone could categorically state from that footage alone that that is the tailfin of Flight 77.
However it does need professional examination, I'm no camera expert but I am sure there are guys out there who could get a clearer or blown up image of what is in the frame. I am still undecided about it.

Yeah, it's not good deciding material, is it? I dunno how much more resolution could be coaxed out of that crap, but I think it's useful as is, and I'm milking it pretty good. mmm. crap-milk. But no tailfin hunting tonight. I'm just too tired, but I'll be baaack.

Originally posted by Connected
You havnen't done enough reading or homework then. That's a true sign of a US Government follower.

See, this is where you're very wrong. There are quite a lot of conspiracies i cast my lot in with. Quite a lot of which do not run with the grain of the US government. Comments such as yours, which immediately show bias at doubters and skeptics, are another reason why the majority of Americans will never even give this theory a run-through. Ninety-five percent of the truth seekers out there are frothing at the mouth and seething with such hatred for the government that they can't deal with the fact that their theory, vacant of tangible evidence by all accounts, may not be purported by others, or *gasp* may be completely wrong.

I want to thank nick however, for being level headed. Nick is the type of person that will open this conspiracy up to the general public, not the slanderous ilk of alex jones and the like.

Originally posted by PartChimp

Originally posted by Connected
You havnen't done enough reading or homework then. That's a true sign of a US Government follower.

I want to thank nick however, for being level headed. Nick is the type of person that will open this conspiracy up to the general public, not the slanderous ilk of alex jones and the like.

Thanks! I appreciate the kind words.

Originally posted by PartChimp

Originally posted by Connected
You havnen't done enough reading or homework then. That's a true sign of a US Government follower.

See, this is where you're very wrong. There are quite a lot of conspiracies i cast my lot in with. Quite a lot of which do not run with the grain of the US government. Comments such as yours, which immediately show bias at doubters and skeptics, are another reason why the majority of Americans will never even give this theory a run-through. Ninety-five percent of the truth seekers out there are frothing at the mouth and seething with such hatred for the government that they can't deal with the fact that their theory, vacant of tangible evidence by all accounts, may not be purported by others, or *gasp* may be completely wrong.

I want to thank nick however, for being level headed. Nick is the type of person that will open this conspiracy up to the general public, not the slanderous ilk of alex jones and the like.

Its just too bad that out of all the witnesses they could not agree it was a 757. We have seen very little physical evidence. Also its been over 5 years and we still do not have any official FBI or NTSB incident report on the Pentagon crime scene, or for that matter any of the 911 crime scenes.

Yep. No official complete investigation. Kinda makes you wonder. No good videos showing the plane released. Kinda makes you wonder. Rumsfeld "admitted" a missile hit the building. Kinda makes you wonder.
Wait a minute... it almost seems the government officials WANT us to keep wondering. Should we be playing into this if so? Who's providing the raw materials to feed the "conspiracy industry?" Can we just do our own investigation?
frustratingfraud.blogspot.com... terlist.html

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Yep. No official complete investigation. Kinda makes you wonder. No good videos showing the plane released. Kinda makes you wonder. Rumsfeld "admitted" a missile hit the building. Kinda makes you wonder.
Wait a minute... it almost seems the government officials WANT us to keep wondering. Should we be playing into this if so? Who's providing the raw materials to feed the "conspiracy industry?" Can we just do our own investigation?
frustratingfraud.blogspot.com... terlist.html

I have been doing my own investigation. I am a data analysist with NSA and have access to government sites and i have not been able to come up with any evidence or reports that explains what really happened that day.

I just looked closer and still can't see a tailfin - it'd be to the left, moving to center of screen. I do see a white shape doing just that, but I'm pretty sure it's a truck catching glare for a moment like the others do, just that one lined up with the plane's line of attack. No way would the tailfin look that big. It was on the other side of a raised highway and just shy of half a mile away (about 2,750 feet). The view is obstructed enough that we can't see even the roofline of the Pentagon (77 feet high), even on its closest corner. The plane was at ground level basically, and has a tailfin height of only 44 feet. If what Gwion is seeing is a tailfin, it's just on the other side of that highway, like 200 feet from the camera. Even the cameras right on the Pentagon lawn a few hundred feet away don't show a tailfin that big and white and clear.

So the video shows no plane. That doesn't mean there's no plane, it just means this cam a half-mile away should NOT sho the plane, despite what the text on-screen says. No Pentagon visible means no plane visible. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
I have been doing my own investigation. I am a data analysist with NSA and have access to government sites and i have not been able to come up with any evidence or reports that explains what really happened that day.

Well cool! Keep up the search. If you ever tire of the gov. sites,check my link there. I'd be curious what you think of the landing gear found inside the building. It looks like a 757's, tho Ican't rule out other models. I agree it's troubling there's been no investigation. I like investigations, when they're honest, becuase it helps us settle up mystery and establsih something closer to fact. I hope that's your goal as well. I tire of the endless mystery thing...

I began researching the actions of our federal government back in 1999, The focus of my investigation was the ATF seige at Mt. Carmel In Waco, Texas 1993. More specifically the ATF and FBI circumventing Posse Comitatus laws to use military force on citizens. I have written in-depth papers on this subject.

I have seen federal authorities use military tanks to gas small children and babies for 6 hours.

I have seen the propaganda machine in full force to villify a target. Heck by April 93 the public's consensus was: "Just take those crazy cult members down, and quit wasting our tax dollars" or some such sentiment.

I learned a lot about the federal government, but what I learned is not what the "9/11 conspiracy theorist" wants to hear.

You see, the END-GAME PLAN of the ATF/FBI seige on Mt. Carmel wasn't to gas babies...That was the END RESULT. The intention was to serve a warrant on an individual (David Koresh) for alleged weapons violations. Simple enough right? WRONG!

What caused this debacle wasn't some highly-efficient, future-seeing, diabolical plan; IT WAS mistake after mistake, poor planning, poor communication, poor understanding of the situation, and the inability of federal bureacracies to work together AT ALL.

I have NO reason to believe that any of these inefficencies were rectified before September 11th 2001.

To believe that the bureaucratic agencies of the CIA, FBI, NORAD, FEMA, STATE DEPT, NY Local Officials, FAA, Military Chiefs, Select Congressmen, Select Scientists, The main stream Media, the Secretary of Defenses office, Lumpy Dick, and Party Boy Bush were all on the same page and suddenly morphed into a borg-like super-intelligence, with the ability to predict the future, conquer and enslave the world, all the while killing and lying to their own citizens all with pinpoint precision..

Um sorry folks we can barely count our ballots.

No, the US Federal Government, specifically, the overblown Bureaucratic system before 9/11 was simply riddled with incompetence and complacency. A "That's not my job attitude."


It took a few overly smart doods sitting in a cave in Afganistan to come up with a plan to knock our front teeth in...they were overly smart because one of our bureacracy's skrewed-up (CIA- BLOWBACK). No surprise there.

The tragedies of 9/11 were a result of simplicity, not complexity.

I realize it is no fun to think of the people within our Federal Government as everyday goof-balls that just happened to take a different career path.

But, they are....


WAKE-UP!!!!

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
I just looked closer and still can't see a tailfin - it'd be to the left, moving to center of screen. I do see a white shape doing just that, but I'm pretty sure it's a truck catching glare for a moment like the others do, just that one lined up with the plane's line of attack. No way would the tailfin look that big. It was on the other side of a raised highway and just shy of half a mile away (about 2,750 feet). The view is obstructed enough that we can't see even the roofline of the Pentagon (77 feet high), even on its closest corner. The plane was at ground level basically, and has a tailfin height of only 44 feet. If what Gwion is seeing is a tailfin, it's just on the other side of that highway, like 200 feet from the camera. Even the cameras right on the Pentagon lawn a few hundred feet away don't show a tailfin that big and white and clear.

So the video shows no plane. That doesn't mean there's no plane, it just means this cam a half-mile away should NOT sho the plane, despite what the text on-screen says. No Pentagon visible means no plane visible. Am I wrong?

Caustic, concentrate on the overpass just between Citgo (I know you cannot see citgo, but I know you know where it is) and the impact site.

It isn't a reflection..It's the tail fin. Right as the media dood says "it doesn't show a Plane" is when you see it (typical incompetence)..the video is looped three times... You cannot see the fuselage of the plane, but watch that video..pause it... watch it again...

The plane's tail fin is above the roofline about 200 yards out, then dips just before it hits. Consistant with your research.

Here is the link again:

www.infowars.net...





[edit on 16-2-2007 by GwionX]

half a mile away. Think about it.

That is approx 880 yards ( I am thinking it is about 600 yards away)

Or about the length of a long par 5 hole on a golf course. (500-600 yards)

Why is it so unreasonable for a 44 ft hight tail fin to be too far or to big from that camera's vantage point?

Think about it.

EDIT: Whoa...I just watched that footage frame by frame and Zoomed.. the tail fin isn't white..it is darker.

The right wing is what's white on that film! the plane is clearly not comming in on a steady path in the air...the wing comes up (white) then dips showing breifly the darker tail fin, a bit closer to the pentagon.. along with the darker top of the fuselage. The plane is actually banking with the right wing up then is just beginning to level off when it hit.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by GwionX]

No, dude. The Pentagon is a half-mile away - check the map - the 77-foot high Pentagon is invisible at that distance, so how could we see a 44-foot-high tailfin level with the middle of that invisible building? And that big and clear at that distance? Look at the white blur on the Pentagon's security cameras - that's at about 600 feet away. This camera was about 2,000 feet further away. How big is this friggin tailfin? And considering all that traffic moving in the same direction much closer, I'm guessing that's what this is. A whole steam of "talifins" headed to work...

But this is a small point in the big picture - And as for your persistent argument that they just screwed up, I guess it's off point, but I don't buy it. Again, think about it:

"Oops, we screwed up and didn't stop the attack we fully meant to stop. But oh well, now we can wage all the wars we already had set-up awaiting an excuse, we can pass the PATRIOT Act we already wrote up, establsih the DHS we already had set up, double Bush's popularity overnight, increase military recruitment, etc. Damn, if only we'd stopped that attack. Too bad we keep stumbling into empire. Boy are we INCOMPETENT."

Sorry, I guess I'm just too busy being "comforted" by conspiracy theoories to accept the hard and frightening truth that our rulers are essentially beneficient but screw up sometimes. That's just too hard a truth to swallow.


If sarcasm was a vitamin I could bottle it and supply a small nation.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
No, dude. The Pentagon is a half-mile away - check the map - the 77-foot high Pentagon is invisible at that distance, so how could we see a 44-foot-high tailfin level with the middle of that invisible building?

I know what I see, at first I thought it was the tail-fin...until I zoomed the image and watched the video frame-by frame. It was then I realized it was the right wing of the plane banking as it was decending..after it does you can breifly see the tail section of the plane, then the explosion. The pentagon is not invisible --as in being too far away to see..as is clearly evidenced by that very explosion. the roofline of the Pentagon is at roughly the same height as the overpass ..(in perspective, of course) Are you saying you cannot see a jumbo-jet 800 yards away? I sure can, anytime I go to the Airport.

And that big and clear at that distance? Look at the white blur on the Pentagon's security cameras - that's at about 600 feet away. This camera was about 2,000 feet further away. How big is this friggin tailfin? And considering all that traffic moving in the same direction much closer, I'm guessing that's what this is. A whole steam of "talifins" headed to work...

Oh good lord No! Do you think I would be that goofy? DON'T Answer that!

It is clear that this object (I am now convinced is a plane) is not on any sort of road AT ALL. 800 yards is NOT that far. In Track and Field it is considered almost a sprint nowadays.

But this is a small point in the big picture - And as for your persistent argument that they just screwed up, I guess it's off point, but I don't buy it. Again, think about it:

"Oops, we screwed up and didn't stop the attack we fully meant to stop. But oh well, now we can wage all the wars we already had set-up awaiting an excuse, we can pass the PATRIOT Act we already wrote up, establsih the DHS we already had set up, double Bush's popularity overnight, increase military recruitment, etc. Damn, if only we'd stopped that attack. Too bad we keep stumbling into empire. Boy are we INCOMPETENT."

Don't forget COMPLACENT! That is EXACTY what the Federal Govt was before 9/11. They didn't stop the attack they were supposed to stop because they were disorganized goof-balls. Empire? Our world credibility is going right down the tubes...Bush's scatterbrained agendas and ..well quite honestly this very "Conspiracy "truth" Movement" hurts our credibility if other countries citizens start reading and believing this venom.

WE become the Nazi's in the world's eyes..WE become the Stalins...WE Become the Axis of evil. All based on half truths and "theories".. This BS is dangerous and DOESN'T help AMERICA. Although many are led to believe it does...by self-proclaimed "Great Patriots" no less..."Enlightened Believers" are just playing right into the hands of those who want to do us harm.

Why can't people, smart people, see that? Just like they cannot see that Plane in the Penagon Video?

Sorry, I guess I'm just too busy being "comforted" by conspiracy theoories to accept the hard and frightening truth that our rulers are essentially beneficient but screw up sometimes. That's just too hard a truth to swallow.

If sarcasm was a vitamin I could bottle it and supply a small nation.

Our leaders change..all the time. If you are Implying some sort of Illuminati as "rulers" that is gettin' REAL kookie. Btw: Warren Buffet donated 43 BILLION to charity today. Kinda makes Silverstein look like chump change don't it.

Originally posted by GwionX
I know what I see, at first I thought it was the tail-fin...until I zoomed the image and watched the video frame-by frame. It was then I realized it was the right wing of the plane banking as it was decending..after it does you can breifly see the tail section of the plane, then the explosion. The pentagon is not invisible --as in being too far away to see..as is clearly evidenced by that very explosion. the roofline of the Pentagon is at roughly the same height as the overpass ..(in perspective, of course) Are you saying you cannot see a jumbo-jet 800 yards away? I sure can, anytime I go to the Airport.

You might see what you want to see. But thier is still no real physical evidence and official report that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

The aircraft parts they show at the Pentagon is no real evidence.

1. The landing gear shown has not been identified as a gear from a 757.

2. The type of wheel is not just on a 757, there are other planes that use that same type of wheel.

3. The engine found outside can not be identified as a RB211.

4. If the fire was hot enough to destroy the plane it would also be hot enough to destroy the bodies and DNA evidence.

Y'know Gwion, it's funny we're arguing about this video, as we're among the only ones on here who are willing to see the 757. And maybe you're right. The explosion plume does come through very large, the buliding is large, and so is a 757. And mostly I don't see any vehicle attached to this talifin/wingtip, unlike the next one that passes in the same line, which has a semi-truck. But watch the explosion closely - I still think I'm right but maybe... Here's a photo I took of the video for lack of a better method, suspect tailfin or banking wing, as I see it, highlighted. This is what he's talking about.

Whaddya think folks? It's at the very beginning. Point for tailfin: seen from the southeast, the tailfin would catch the sun and appear bright white. Argument for a wing: it's bigger and more likely to be seen at this distance, same issue for lighting. Argument against a wing: That's a steep bank - almost sideways it seems.

And this video clip sucks. Here's a better one that loops so you can cue it better, with no added text, and no "Pilots" promos. www.youtube.com...


Here's another analysis - the plane came in at a ground-level attitude for the last several hundred feet, so if we compare the building's roofline, the tailfin would be beneath that line - beneath the horizon line here. And no wing would peek above that either, barring a super-steep bank that would put the other wing in the dirt deeper than Gerald Ford.

But there is the angle of attack to consider and the fact that 30 foot-lamp poles were clipped high up just before the pentagon, putting the tailfin at about roof level - again its highest point then descending to some point below the horizon from this camera. Is this enough time for that dip? In fact I see no dip - it just slides straight across, then something beneath it blows up.

Yes that IS a steep bank..But the guys accused of piloting these planes weren't exactly experienced airline pilots either.

Ok, I kinda suck at screen captures, and it seems that the stills lose a bit of (already bad) resolution, but check these stills out ..then rewatch the video on FULL SCREEN ( Btw: I am using a 19" LCD Monitor and can that it is a plane pretty clearly)

Still #1: The Tip of the Wing



Still #2: Wing and Tail (Banking plane)



Still #3 The Decent



Still #4 The tail is disappearing from view (worst still, more defined in the video)



I Hope this helps the researchers.












[edit on 17-2-2007 by GwionX]