Barack Obama is he a member ?

Originally posted by The Axeman
Ron Paul is the true hope for our country, and even if he were running against an entire panel of Masons he would still get my vote.

I think it's funny how anti-Masons constantly say we all have some sort of agenda when you can see from this thread that we have some widely different political views among Masons. I am a lifelong Democrat and I can't STAND Ron Paul... but we have a few Masons here who do support him. Kind of takes the wind out of the sails of some of the anti-Masons arguments, I'd say!

Originally posted by JustMe74
I am a lifelong Democrat and I can't STAND Ron Paul

Amen to that, brother. Those of you who are my MySpace friends are probably growing weary of all my anti-Ron-Paul bulletins, but that guy is just plain wrong for this country. If Ron Paul ever became president, I would hope that no one around needed health care or social security any time soon!

If a commie socialist like yourself is AGAINST Ron Paul that is good enough reason for me to vote for him

We are so past secret societies with Obama. He is related to Cheney AND Bush!

He is an eighth cousin to Cheney and distantly related to Bush. So he is absolutely in the Game don't you think?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by JustMe74
I am a lifelong Democrat and I can't STAND Ron Paul

Amen to that, brother. Those of you who are my MySpace friends are probably growing weary of all my anti-Ron-Paul bulletins, but that guy is just plain wrong for this country. If Ron Paul ever became president, I would hope that no one around needed health care or social security any time soon!

He doesn't want to get rid of Social Security for those who are on it and will need to be on it soon. It's remarks like this that discourage voters from making a good choice. And health care is not a right. Like doctors grow on trees, give me a break. They are providing a service. The real enemy is the insurance and drug companies. If they were out of the picture, health care costs would go WAY down. It's all about the middle men. And that's why so many middle class Americans like him, because he wants to cut out the middle man, so you can finally get more for your money. Enough waste.

reply to post by Arcane Demesne


Well said.
Honestly, I used to be a republican, until Bush came into office, then I switched my affiliation to independent.
But now, I wish I could switch back to republican just so I could vote for Ron Paul in the republican primary.
I think that he has the best skills to help get this country back on track.

And in all seriousness, I'm still a bit bitter that Bill Bradley lost the democratic primary back in 2000.
He was my man!

reply to post by wu kung


Similar story here. I was too young to know what was going on when Bush1 won in '88. And still too young when Clinton was in office. But one thing I was old enough for, was to watch Bush2 completely destroy our country. Because of him, his father and what I had read about Clinton, my first party of choice was Independent, anything to get away from the two party system. I've recently switched to Republican to vote for Paul in the primaries, and will probably change my affiliation to Libertarian or Constitution Party before the general election.

As for Obama, and other members who have ties with nefarious leagues...I'm fairly certain that only Paul, Kucinich and Gravel are clean...though I may be wrong. But I'm fairly certain those are our only safe choices. And as a fan of capitalism (true freedom, not this overly regulated heavily subsidized crap we have now) my vote will be for Paul.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
As for Obama, and other members who have ties with nefarious leagues...

What nefarious leagues?

Not to turn this in to a political discussion, but I'd say Stormfront and neo-Nazi groups qualify as a "nefarious league" and they all support Ron Paul.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne

And health care is not a right.

Why not? It certainly is a right in every other advanced, civilized nation in the world. Why not in the USA?

Like doctors grow on trees, give me a break. They are providing a service.

Policemen don't grow on trees, but we have universal, public law enforcement. Teachers don't grow on trees, but we have universal public education. Firemen and librarians don't grow on trees either.

The real enemy is the insurance and drug companies. If they were out of the picture, health care costs would go WAY down. It's all about the middle men.

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Give this guy a cigar and a pat on the back!

I agree with you 100%, friend. The Kucinich-Conyers bill, HR-676, provides universal single-payer health care by eliminating the private insurance industry (or "scam", whichever you'd prefer to call it).

The National Health Insurance Act would cover every single American with Medicare, while allowing physicians to continue operating in private practice. It would make health care a right of every American, and would be much more cost efficient than our current system, where the profits of private insurers account for 1/3 of all health care spending. As Kucinich recently noted, we're already paying for universal health care, we're just not getting it.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Health care is already a right. Rights come with responsibilities. The responsibility that comes with health care is paying for it out of your own pocket. Whay should I have to pay your doctor bills?

Originally posted by RWPBR


Health care is already a right. Rights come with responsibilities. The responsibility that comes with health care is paying for it out of your own pocket. Whay should I have to pay your doctor bills?

I find it sort of odd that Masons, who supposedly believe in the Brotherhood of Man, would accept this "me, me, me" attitude. To answer your question "why should we", I would point back to what you said. We have certain responsibilities, from both God and our nation, to take care of each other and promote each other's well-being.

But even that doesn't really matter here. The fact here is that we're *already* paying more than enough to cover everybody. The problem is that 1/3 of what we're paying goes to insurance corporation profits, instead of health care. All businesses make profits by providing a service *except* the insurance industry. They make profits by *not* providing a service. See the contradiction?

Now, I have a serious question to ask you, brother. In every other advanced western nation, if the little girl down the street with cancer needs an operation to survive, she simply goes and gets it done. Here, her parents have to organize bake sales and sell their house. Are you proud of that fact?

Nothing to contribute. Anybody else seeing anything past this post?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Why not? It certainly is a right in every other advanced, civilized nation in the world. Why not in the USA?

Just because you receive a service, doesn't make it a right.

Policemen don't grow on trees, but we have universal, public law enforcement. Teachers don't grow on trees, but we have universal public education. Firemen and librarians don't grow on trees either.

And all are underpaid because of it. Look at any private company (good or bad for society), they pay better. I'm pretty sure BlackWater employees are paid better than our service men (a shame really). Sports stars are paid rather handsomely (albeit way too much). And

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Give this guy a cigar and a pat on the back!

I agree with you 100%, friend. The Kucinich-Conyers bill, HR-676, provides universal single-payer health care by eliminating the private insurance industry (or "scam", whichever you'd prefer to call it).

The National Health Insurance Act would cover every single American with Medicare, while allowing physicians to continue operating in private practice. It would make health care a right of every American, and would be much more cost efficient than our current system, where the profits of private insurers account for 1/3 of all health care spending. As Kucinich recently noted, we're already paying for universal health care, we're just not getting it.

I understand the notion, but the point is that the Government would be nothing more than an overgrown insurance company. And that is not the purpose of Government. And don't get me wrong, Kucinich is my man, I wish he'd team up with Ron Paul already. But, as a young man just starting out in the world with tons of schools loans to pay back, I don't want to have to pay for a service that I'm not going to use.

I can see a vision like Dennis' coming to fruition as an optional tax once everything is straightened out, our government downsized and the income tax abolished. Until then, social programs will just add to the size and cost of government.


[edit on 1/8/2008 by Arcane Demesne]

just a follow-up. Can't even see my own reply (so, no; it isn't an ignore issue). Anybody with suggestions, please PM me

TIA
Fitz

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
As for Obama, and other members who have ties with nefarious leagues...

What nefarious leagues?

Not to turn this in to a political discussion, but I'd say Stormfront and neo-Nazi groups qualify as a "nefarious league" and they all support Ron Paul.

And this proves to you that Ron Paul is a KKK Grand Master? Talk about jumping to conclusions, sheesh! I said "have ties", as in 'belonging to', 'is a member of', or 'leads a'.

Just because a nut happens to support Paul's cause doesn't mean that Paul has to throw his message out of the window. That's ludicrous.

Nefarious Leagues like the WTO, CFR, Trilateral Commission, World Bank, Bilderberg, etc.

reply to post by Paloma


Wow, that' interesting. Kind of how Bush is related to Colin Powell and John Kerry. Or was that disproven? I can't remember.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne


Just because you receive a service, doesn't make it a right.

And just because you don't doesn't mean it's *not* a right. Many, if not most, advanced nations have written into law the right to public health care, just as we have written into the law the right to public education.

I understand the notion, but the point is that the Government would be nothing more than an overgrown insurance company. And that is not the purpose of Government.

But there would be several substantial differences. The insurance business is a for-profit industry; government is not. Government is already a non-profit insurance provider through its Medicare program, but right now only the elderly are covered by it. Under the National Health Insurance Act, it would simply extend coverage to everyone else.

And don't get me wrong, Kucinich is my man, I wish he'd team up with Ron Paul already.

I'm glad to hear it, and have myself been an activist for Kucinich in the last two elections. I basically agree with Ron Paul on his strict constitutionalism, civil liberties, and the war in Iraq. However, I have large differences with him in the economic sphere.

But, as a young man just starting out in the world with tons of schools loans to pay back, I don't want to have to pay for a service that I'm not going to use.

I can certainly understand that, as I was in the exact same position myself when I graduated. But a couple of points to ease your mind:

1. Everybody (me, you, all Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, and Socialists) are eventually going to need health care, and lots of it. Trust me: it's a service you *will* use. We're all going to grow old, get sick, and eventually die. The last thing we need at that stage is having to worry about where the money is going to come from. Also, the time will come when we have to take care of our parents, even if we ourselves our healthy. Same thing with our children.

2. The natioanl health program will actually be *less* expensive...you can take some of the money you would otherwise be paying for insurance premiums, and put it to pay off your college loans.

I can see a vision like Dennis' coming to fruition as an optional tax once everything is straightened out, our government downsized and the income tax abolished. Until then, social programs will just add to the size and cost of government.

Yet the cost of government is still far less than the cost of private health insurance. Dennis' plan would make this extremely affordable. There's already enough money in the system to cover everyone if we eliminate the insurance profits. Unlike the Canadian/European model, physicians would remain in private practice. Patients would have full choice (no more HMO networks). If their doctor says something needs to be done, Medicare covers it.

The only thing that would be "socialized" is the insurance aspect. Most of those currently working for private insurance companies would still have jobs in the administration of Medicare. Their payroll would be met by abolishing the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy and by ending the war in Iraq. This would also allow tax cuts for the middle class and working poor.

reply to post by Masonic Light


I am not proud of the fact but the parents may be. Some of us take pride in providing for ourselves even if it is a hardship.

Brotherhood and socialism are not the same things...you easily confuse the 2.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by RWPBR
reply to post by Masonic Light

 

I am not proud of the fact but the parents may be. Some of us take pride in providing for ourselves even if it is a hardship.

Brotherhood and socialism are not the same things...you easily confuse the 2.

I'm not talking about socialism, I'm talking about providing health care to people who need it instead of exploiting sick and dying people for outrageous profits.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by Masonic Light]

Health care is available to all in America.
It is not about the healthcare, it is about getting it FREE. It is about having somebody else pay your way and carrying your weight.

Yes when I get old I will need healthcare, just like I need it now. I have retirment plans and investments to cover those situations. I plan ahead. I work. I educated myself and provided for my family. I dont go merrily through life expecting that somebody else will cover my butt when I need it.

Poverty is a pit with steep sides. In this pit there are 2 ladders that can be used to escape. One is labled Education and the other Hard Work.
There is also a shovel labeled Big Government....You dig, I will use the ladder. Lets see who gets out first