US war crimes:

Beheadr: "Fulcrum, Jakomo both of you need to grow a set a balls. This is WAR people die. That Iraqi was going to die anyway, they did the guy a favor by putting a few more bullets in him. That Iraqi would have killed the US soldiers without a second thought. It is kill or be killed. They are trained to kill. They were probably excited because it was the first time they were able to put their training to use, that is why they were yelling. Do you want a bunch of pussies like yourselfs defending this country? "

Okay, so gunning down a writhing Iraqi in the dirt is defense of your COUNTRY? Explain that one to me.

"If you were taking hostile fire would you go out of your way to save that iraqi who was shooting at you 20 seconds earlier? "

Were they taking hostile fire from the Iraqi as he writhed in the dirt? I didn't see that.

You, sir, need to look up something called HONOR, because you're obviouskly a yellow coward.

If the US treats its enemies with murderous dishonor, they are not deserving of any honor themselves.

And to hear ANYONE condone this type of behavior makes me wonder what kind of evil YOU yourself are capable of. Tortured any small animals lately?


sick


jakomo

How many war crimes have been committed by Russian soldiers in Chechyna or Afghanistan?

It is always the same people attacking the US, they are so desparate to cut them.

Originally posted by Djarums

If they did something wrong, they should be punished as wrongdoers. That's all there is to it.

Well, actually that is what i do think.

This is the way it should work for all.

But why doesnt it?
(im 100% sure that these troops here didnt get even a slap on the wrist for this crime commited here..)

Prove me wrong?

US personel just get away with it and others are being punished under US/UN supervision for the same crimes that Americans escape justice..

This is wrong.



I quote Metallica here:

JUSTICE FOR ALL!!!

Originally posted by THENEO
How many war crimes have been committed by Russian soldiers in Chechyna or Afghanistan?

Russia has tried their own people for crimes commited in these conflicts.

And has put them to jail.
(when found quilty..)

How many Americans are in jail for crimes commited in Afganistan or in Iraq?

And here i have posted 100% proof of one such crime..



*Edit*

Yeah one!

But even he attacked his comrades on purpose..

That incident in that Kuwaiti military camp..

One US trooper 'fragging' his mates.. with hand grenades..



[Edited on 18-12-2003 by FULCRUM]

Fulcrum,

I'm glad to hear that the Russias were so responsible for their soldiers. Are you aware of the details and is it possible to see some links to these stories?

Enough!!!

This has nothing to do with what country is better blah blah blah.
This is irrefutable evidence of american servicemen breaking international law. I am usually a very strong supporter of our troops but I WILL NOT support this #.
I don't think it should be handled in an international court but it must be handled and harshly. American troops know what the geneva convention is and should abide by it at all times. Why bother training if you are just going to ignore what you are taught?
Just because some other country may or may not have broken these rules is NO EXCUSE for american troops to do the same. Forget about what country you think is right or wrong. These troops were quite obviously WRONG in this case. The damn kid was revelling in it.
Sickening.

Well said

This was a crime.

Now i want to know how is the US military supposed to deal with these evil doers, and will it?

Only case in which US has convicted its own personel over war crimes that i know of is My Lai case..

Are there others?

For sure we know that US troops have commited more of these.. in ww2 and in Vietnam..

And now in Yugoslavia, Afganistan and in Iraq..

Originally posted by THENEO
How many war crimes have been committed by Russian soldiers in Chechyna or Afghanistan?

Russian soldiers, and all soldiers of any nationality for that matter, should be put to trial if they have commited war crimes. So far, Russia has only handed out symbolic sentences to some soldiers who committed atrocities in Chechnya.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
Well said

This was a crime.

Now i want to know how is the US military supposed to deal with these evil doers, and will it?

Only case in which US has convicted its own personel over war crimes that i know of is My Lai case..

Are there others?

For sure we know that US troops have commited more of these.. in ww2 and in Vietnam..

And now in Yugoslavia, Afganistan and in Iraq..

Yugoslavia?? ww2??

how about kosovo?

The Serbs were ethnically cleansing albanian in kosovo.
serbs were doing the same in 1991 in bosnian war.......

No way US was as bad as those guys!

I don't understand ...... war is war.....this film was out of context anyway so whatever.......

with all the US deaths in Iraq the last thing they want to do is disarm the militants...... they want them dead.

It is kill or be killed.
What I would of done may have been different.

When u grab a rifle and join a fight you will expect to possibly die ok.

The soilders were excited ......over excited..... and maybe said things that would have bothered many.

This is war..........

sad but true.

Originally posted by BeHeadR
Fulcrum, Jakomo both of you need to grow a set a balls. This is WAR people die. That Iraqi was going to die anyway, they did the guy a favor by putting a few more bullets in him. That Iraqi would have killed the US soldiers without a second thought. It is kill or be killed. They are trained to kill. They were probably excited because it was the first time they were able to put their training to use, that is why they were yelling. Do you want a bunch of pussies like yourselfs defending this country?

If you were taking hostile fire would you go out of your way to save that iraqi who was shooting at you 20 seconds earlier?

Both of you are little puss y arm-chair jockeys. You'd wet your pants if you had to deal with combat or anything close to it. Sheltered little babies.

How can you live with yourself fulcrum?

I'm just curious, have you ever been in the military and/or in a war? If so, what branch?

Good to see you here ECK,

What would your CO had done to you for killing a downed enemy in cold blood? Just wondering.

I know we aren't seeing the full context of the film but the guy on the ground sure didn't look too threatening to me.

Originally posted by Fry2
Good to see you here ECK,

What would your CO had done to you for killing a downed enemy in cold blood? Just wondering.

I know we aren't seeing the full context of the film but the guy on the ground sure didn't look too threatening to me.

Fry2,
I was waiting for you to ask me that.

When I served, which was one of the best times in our history to serve (late 80's, early 90's), our leadership had the memory of Vietnam fresh in their minds. Burnt into their hearts, I should say. And they taught us well. (Hats off to those guys, my heroes.)

Before deploying to the Gulf, they instructed us on what was acceptable behavior in all situations and what was not. They told us that we had every right to disobey an UNlawful order. We were very clear on what was lawful and what was criminal.

Had any one of us behaved in that animalistic way, we would have been apprehended immediately by the MP's and charged for murder under UCMJ in a court martial. Then it would have been execution or Leavenworth for the rest of their lives.

There is never any excuse for murder. Not even in war. Once that is sanctioned, we become as evil as the enemy.

Thanks,
That's the response I was expecting. I just don't want anyone here to think that this barbarism is indicative of standard operating procedure in the U.S. military. I just hope there is some swift justice for those involved.

Originally posted by Fry2
Thanks,
That's the response I was expecting. I just don't want anyone here to think that this barbarism is indicative of standard operating procedure in the U.S. military. I just hope there is some swift justice for those involved.

Absolutely.

You know the saying - shyte rolls down hill. The criminal conduct of our soldiers is a direct reflection of their leadership and is a product of a miserably failed Iraq policy. It's a damn shame. Our leaders could be tried for war crimes (were we a party to the ICC). It only stands to reason that mentality would filter down through the ranks. Then there's the fact that Iraq is a completely insane and dangerous environment right now. Our troops are probably quite traumatised by it all and that causes them to behave criminally. I hold the administration completely responsible for these acts occuring.

Remember the Vietnam syndrome? Baby killers, our veterans were slanderously called, and they were spat upon when they came home from that hell they did not choose. After the Gulf war, the military had finally won back the respect and admiration of the United States. It was hard won and profound. What I'm seeing now just sickens me.

Any troop that commits a crime should definitely be dealt with swiftly and harshly. Maybe then the rest of them would see the writing on the wall.

I think all of our usual debaters, on both sides, are in agreement that if the actions discussed are found to be true then the people involved should be penalized. The problem here is that one group of posters has decided in their infinite wisdom that the US should not even be given a chance to investigate and appropriately prosecute if necessary. That's the issue. You people don't even give anyone a chance to do anything because you base your entire thought process on your own preconceived ideas and allow nothing to change them. You are, in my opinion, doing yourself a great injustice by doing that. Let the authorities in the US military investigate. If they find wrongdoing, let them punish. If they find wrongdoing and do not punish, then you are right. But at least give it a chance. You'd give any other country a chance wouldn't you?

No one wants to think our military members are capable of committing atrocities. Especially those of us who have served. Unfortunately, our soldiers are only human and we all have a breaking point. Things that one sees on the battlefield and in the aftermath of war or while engaging in occupation can be stressful and traumatic to the point of searing one's conscience. This is a tragic reality. Ask the many Vietnam vets who flipped out because of what they saw. There are many who did not; but everyone has a different threshold for pain.

The soldiers identified as having committed a crime, any crime, should be apprehended, investigated and charged or exhonorated accordingly. No ands ifs or buts. If we don't hold firm on this, it will only work to our destruction. No excuses.

Although I believe each soldier should be held accountable for his/her actions, I also believe the blame can be laid at the feet of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for putting our troops into this gawdawful situation without any kind of plan beyond shock and awe. It is his supreme responsibility and his head should roll.

Originally posted by Djarums
The problem here is that one group of posters has decided in their infinite wisdom that the US should not even be given a chance to investigate and appropriately prosecute if necessary.

Are you referring to us who are in favour of the ICC, perhaps?

The U.S. can avoid prosecution of its citizens by the ICC by using its own courts to prosecute genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The ICC treaty preserves the primary right and duty to states to prosecute the most serious human rights crimes and can proceed only when the state with primary jurisdiction is unable or unwilling to proceed. The ICC won't even have jurisdiction over cases involving U.S. nationals if the U.S. itself investigates, and if appropriate, prosecutes the individual responsible. In addition, U.S. nationals can only be prosecuted if they commit one of the extremely and serious crimes under the jurisdiction of the Court.

Bona fide national efforts to investigate alleged crimes and, if appropriate, to prosecute will prevent the ICC from proceeding, even if national authorities concluded that the evidence does not warrant prosecution.
www.hrw.org...

Thanks for the link, Paradigm.

His experiences with military/weapons and justice/international law are limited to those he got off CNN. It seems that he thinks that it is just that US is above those.
(or so would i image..)

His a proud New Yorker, and i would imagene that after 9th of 11th 2001 he has thought that is OK to kill everybody foreign.

Fry2 and EastCostKid..

Your views and discussion to this matter are welcome cause you seem to be able to see the issue at hand.

Good for you!



Let me remind you all:

Regardless of which side the wounded individual was fighting for, medical attention must be given.

Failing to do so is a crime, killing a wounded enemy that cant use weapons is a crime.

ECK, I agree with what you said above about our soldiers 100%. Just because we are Americans doesnt mean that our troops are alway in the right. Out of the 130k that are in Iraq there are going to be a few that are considered bad apples and should be treated as such.

It was a great post on your part until you mentioned Rumsfield though. I think that is a whole differant issue. Should administration officials be subject to crimes during war time or not? I don't recall Rumsfield doing any criminal activity or sending our troops into war on his own. He is just a small part of a complicated machine we call our government.