On to something huge here! (UFO HOAX)

Hey you can see anything you want to if you throw logic out the window, deny the obvious and desperately try to bend even the weakest evidence to fit your own perceptive wishes.

Yet another thread with a huge claim that turns out to be incredibly dissapointing.

This is all getting a little sad now.

Looks like the OP should have known exactly what these were since 3 out of 4 runway approaches at Hopkins have their holding patterns over the lake near Burke.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
Looks like the OP should have known exactly what these were since 3 out of 4 runway approaches at Hopkins have their holding patterns over the lake near Burke.

I have to watch what I say on this obviously...
But you darn well know what I know, and why that location was selected…

It’s painfully obvious to anyone logical what this is really about.
More so coming hot on the heels of the O’Hare incident…

If he had really not know what this was about, then why would he not call the coast guard, ATC or someone when he observed an aircraft supposedly enter the water as mentioned before?

Originally posted by ArMaP
For example, when that guy got the images of the lights entering the water, did he thought of the possibility of witnessing a plane crash?

You have voted ArMaP for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You can always tell a person that has serious objectivity or has worked in a field that involves life and death situations, because their first response is to err on the side of caution!

Most of these Ufologists, don’t!!

With most of these folks it does not matter who they hurt, or fail to help, its all about disclosure, making a fast buck, or their 15 minutes of fame.

I would like to know the credentials of these Ufologist…
Do they hold a RN?
Do they hold a LPN?
Are they a Board Certified Sleep Physician?
Are they a Neurologist?
Are they a Licensed Counselor?
Are they a Psychologist?

If the answer to that is no, then what right do they have to be making diagnoses on any disorder?
If you ever noticed, on every single post I have ever made, I make sure a person either is already seeking medical advice, and if not I suggest they seek it. That is erring on the side of caution.


[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
Let’s talk about scoops for a second…
What are scoops?

Well, let me tell you a little story that happened right on this board one night.

I was in chat and a new user came in complaining about a “red triangle” that appeared on his ankle after a night of Ghost hunting in some remote location in Australia. He had a thread

...Now this wound had all the same features of what Ufologists call scoops.

SOUTHPAW RESPONSE
Have you not spoken with Derrel Sims? He works with a LICENSED Medical Team. REAL Doctors. REAL Surgeons. If you do your homework you'll find that OTHERS do NOT.

Also, Sims doe NOT charge ANYONE for procedures they perform. If there's a legitimate medical concern it is CAUGHT. He tells you to go to a doctor. So this is really a generalization, and I DO understand your frustration with those who do NOT take proper precautions.

I would like to see the spider bite, b/c it actually does NOT sound like a scoop. Scoops are on my hands right now. They sting, and they look like someone took a really "fine" dental tool... and scooped a little "flick" of flesh and skin...

I've never seen a bite of any kind anywhere... continental US, South and Central America... Europe, for that matter... not that I've been to Europe more than a straight week of my life... but still.

I would like to see photos... maybe I can find something... It just doesn't seem to equate for me... sorry.

Originally posted by defcon5
Why do they occur at night?

SOUTHPAW RESPONSE
Okay. So we now understand that insect bites occur at the same time as abduction. That there are certain types of bite that might be misconstrued as something abduction related. Do NOT make medical conclusions you are unqualified to make.

Also... just for the record... any legitimate investigator would WANT you to go to an ER... to a Doctor... to DOCUMENT the ANOMOLY... If the Doctor calls it "unexplained" then you've got additional ammo.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Southpaw11
but what about the abductees who are NOT suffering from sleep apnea, yet demonstrate the same trait?

How do you know they are not suffering from sleep apnea, do you screen all your abduction cases with a PSG to check for this first?

Let's make certain we understand each other here.


SOUTHPAW RESPONSE
SIMS is the investigator on the 2000 abductees of which I speak. There is a plethora of data to which I have not even been made aware, to be sure. In fact, if you talk to him, you'll understand. If you talk to many others in the "Industry" as they would call it... Sims calls it a "Field", by the way... Many don't like Derrel. The truths which to which he has been witness are "too scary" for many too accept.

When we take time to know he's right... it may be too late... at the very least... those who USE the Field of Study known as ufology for FINANCIAL GAIN... they are threatened by Sims' very existance. If the truth comes out... those people can't count on their conventions and money pouring in anymore...


Everything else you wrote is ALL legitimate concern. ALL of it. THAT is why Sims works with a fully qualified, fully licensed medical TEAM. That is why they make certain people who need medical assistance GET IT. That is why they don't EVER charge ANYONE for a procedure.

The guy sells his books... and find real estate deals to fund his quest. He pays for it ALL out of his OWN POCKET. Do the rest of them? Hmmm...



Mod Edit: Quoting on ATS – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 12-2-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by Southpaw11
Have you not spoken with Derrel Sims? He works with a LICENSED Medical Team. REAL Doctors. REAL Surgeons. If you do your homework you'll find that OTHERS do NOT.

Ok, so he works around medical people, so do volunteers with no medical experience, what are his credentials?

Originally posted by Southpaw11
I would like to see the spider bite, b/c it actually does NOT sound like a scoop. Scoops are on my hands right now. They sting, and they look like someone took a really "fine" dental tool... and scooped a little "flick" of flesh and skin...

It is on this board, do a search in the last 3 months. It was a red triangle, and the poster thought he had been attacked by something at the research site. He said it burned for days after the incident.

Do me a personal favor and learn how to quote correctly, it makes your posts more legible…
To post a quote start it with a [quote] and end with a [/quote] now replace all the [‘s with [‘s, and you're good to go…

Originally posted by Southpaw11
Do NOT make medical conclusions you are unqualified to make.

As I said, being an ex-aviation person and an medical person, I ALWAYS error on the side on caution and tell people to seek medical advice. What qualifications do you or Mr. Simms have?

Originally posted by Southpaw11
Also... just for the record... any legitimate investigator would WANT you to go to an ER... to a Doctor... to DOCUMENT the ANOMOLY... If the Doctor calls it "unexplained" then you've got additional ammo.

Just a thought.

Spend a few years here, and you’ll see how often that does not happen…

Originally posted by Southpaw11
Many don't like Derrel. The truths which to which he has been witness are "too scary" for many too accept.

Or they feel he is a whack-a-do that is giving unsound medical advice to folks, and filling their heads with fantasies that he is unqualified to do. As I am pretty new to the Ufologist game I don’t know who he is from Adam, and could possibly be wrong on this, but I doubt it. Please send me more information on the topic…

Though you have so far not answered anything else I have asked thus far, so I will not hold my breath on this too long either.

Originally posted by Southpaw11
those who USE the Field of Study known as ufology for FINANCIAL GAIN... they are threatened by Sims' very existance.

Does this include those that knowingly film UFO’s facing directly into known, documented flight paths and holding patterns?

Originally posted by Southpaw11
Everything else you wrote is ALL legitimate concern. ALL of it. THAT is why Sims works with a fully qualified, fully licensed medical TEAM.

Good, I am glad to hear that he does. What really bothers me is the fly-by-night groups that want everything to be proof of their disclosure event, even if it harms the person they are dealing with. They might even be doing this unintentionally, and feel they are helping the “victim”, but in reality they are causing more harm then good because they let their belief get in the way of good sense.

Originally posted by Southpaw11
That is why they make certain people who need medical assistance GET IT.

Excellent, I feel somewhat better already…

Originally posted by Southpaw11
The guy sells his books... and find real estate deals to fund his quest. He pays for it ALL out of his OWN POCKET. Do the rest of them? Hmmm...

I don’t know….
Like I truthfully said above, this is the deepest I have ever been involved in the UFO situation, I don’t know the main players, their motives, or much else about it. I mean this truly…
What I have seen so far does not impress me much, but maybe this can change.

Anyway, this is most likely my last post for the day, so take your time, U2U me if need be.
Later…
Defcon5


[edit on 2/12/2007 by defcon5]

Well..
After a bit of searching on the "red triangle"…
ends up it’s a poster on this thread I, I hope you don’t mind foo…

Spider Bite

I guess, being a skeptic is sometimes a good thing…
Even if only once in awhile you can truly help someone, its worth weathering the accusations.

well i only recently started visiting this website after seeing a documentry on ufos (black box secrets on youtube)

the last time i took an interest was about 10 years ago and i must say im really disheartened by what ive found today- nothing has changed. Oh except the stories about roswell etc have grown more arms & legs.

its clear to me most of the so called "experts" are in it to make money nothing else. freedman/greer/sereda all full of total crap and dont seem interested in being objective or gathering any real evidence. If i ever did get good evidence on film i would avoid these people like the plague.

I still dont know what to make of frozenthought - deliberate hoaxer or well meaning "over-believer" i guess it doesnt really matter. What ive seen on this website makes me think most people are in it for the 15 minutes of fame or money. regardless of their evidence being any good.

My question is- are there any good legit ufo sites where people discuss facts & science make observations etc? facts & science seem very thin on the ground here.

And those money hungry investigator wannbes... they gang up like hyenias against legit investigators like Sims.

go check out www.alienhunter.org. I don't know if he's got forums and chat up yet... I know it was in the works. I'm willing to be MANY will find SOLID abductee discussion there. SAFE discussion where people do NOT get bashed.

Sims has got one rule... You cause fights... you leave the team.

It works.

I'd check it out. In fact, call him. He answers his own phone, and will answer questions. He does not go out seeking abductees. THEY contact HIM begging him to make it STOP.

and THAT is a FACT.

SPout

D5 WROTE


quote: Originally posted by Southpaw11
and florescence...



What do you mean by waking up with florescence btw?
What, they glow in the dark?


SOUTHPAW RESPONSE
D5... this should get everyone's attention in here.

Years ago, Derrel Sims, The Alienhunter, was working with a family that had events going on over and over. The 10 year old son had just had an event. Derrel was there investigating. The young boy reached up under a Darth Vader "blacklight" that was on his desk.

When he did this, Derrel noted flourescent markings on his skin and clothes.

Sims took a blacklight and then went to a local Abductee Support Group... if you can believe that...

He asked permission to test out a theory of his. The people their subscribed... and he found that the majority of them had these same flourescent markings all over them. Not like a character... or phrase... but flouresant "slop" all over them.

HE is the one that discovered this phenomenon. HE is the one who pioneered that "similarity" among abductees... more than a decade ago.

This is why I tell people... if you have signs of an event... get under the blacklight and take a quick look-see...

SPout

I think everything that can be said about these lights has been said, and I think there is enough information here for people to come to a pretty solid conclusion on the subject.

My interest in this thread is Frozenthought himself. I think it is the egotistical arrogance of some 'ufo researchers' in regards to not being able to be wrong that gives the rest a bad name. Not actually knowing anyone that makes UFO docu-tainment DVDs, I only have Frozenthoughts attitudes and insights to draw from, and to use a word I don't normally allow myself..

Your attitude frankly sucks, Frozenthought.

If people with attitudes like this are the ones creating these BLATANTLY biased videos, you have saved me from ever having to watch another one. Say what you want about the mass media not reporting fairly, but if one offers this evidence without a counter theory, as so many of these docu-tainment videos do, you are just as neglegent in my eyes.

It is okay to come to the wrong initial conclusions about evidence if at some point when further analysis discovers possible explainations you step back and reevaluate your conclusions. I think that in some instances it is better to let a probable video of an unknown go under than to allow even ONE video that can be explained remain as 'evidence'.

Originally posted by Southpaw11
go check out www.alienhunter.org.
I'd check it out. In fact, call him. He answers his own phone, and will answer questions.

Thank you!
I will do so, and get back to folks here on what I find…
Anyway, I am going to take the day off and sleep, as I have to do the sleep-tech thing tonight, so feel free to U2U me or whatever. There is nothing I would love more then to find another person that thinks critically on any paranormal subject and is willing to get to the bottoms of it even if the results are not to their liking.

Later
Defcon5

FrozenThought has been fiesty through this.

He's been met with resistance on something HE knows is real. He was there. He saw two "aircraft in a holding pattern" mate like flies...

And is NOW enduring THIS in here...

I will again, direct ALL of you to the Book of Job. Go read it... just for fun. You'll see how Job's peers all tell him he's CRAZY. You shouldn't talk like that... it doesn't make sense... you're outta your ghourd... etc. That's what Job heard... from his best of friends.

No... I say RESERVE JUDGEMENT.

NONE of us can possibly KNOW what those guys went through that night. I can say this much though... I bet there's a whole lot more to that story that we are not hearing about.

Before we judge somebody for lashing out... we might want to consider the fact that "trauma" will bear down upon somebody... anybody... and if it was YOU that were in HIS shoes... you'd hope everyone would listen as well, no?

The MOB murders the innocent in a wave of uncontrolled rage...

I don't wanna be a part of THAT... how bout YOU?

RESERVE JUDGEMENT

Originally posted by Southpaw11
RESERVE JUDGEMENT

I reserved judgement for 17 pages, I saw a lot of questions sidestepped or answered vaguely. It is the same thing that happens everytime someone is hiding something. The thing we don't know, and probably never WILL know, is what is being hidden.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Southpaw11
go check out www.alienhunter.org.
I'd check it out. In fact, call him. He answers his own phone, and will answer questions.

Thank you!
I will do so, and get back to folks here on what I find…
Anyway, I am going to take the day off and sleep, as I have to do the sleep-tech thing tonight, so feel free to U2U me or whatever. There is nothing I would love more then to find another person that thinks critically on any paranormal subject and is willing to get to the bottoms of it even if the results are not to their liking.

Later
Defcon5

This is a really interesting point. I didn't even mention this.

You know how alot of ufologists... Greer, Strieber, et al... they get all excited about a sighting... they think they're here to help... heck... GREER has stated PUBLICLY that he wants to be the first Ambassador from the Planet EARTH. He's also in pain now... think of him in your prayers... He HAS done GOOD work toward disclosure as well...

NONE are "all bad"... but there is some REAL bad in the "bad" of it...

Anyway...

My point is this... You will NOT find a bigger skeptic than Derrel Sims. He wants TRUTH. Not something "pretty to hang on the wall". He wants TRUTH. And he wants safety for HIS family. Keep in mind his SON is an abductee. Does that not put it into a different realm? Especially for those of you with your own children... you understand what I mean.

Derrel is a DEBUNKER. What he doesn't figure out as "obvious". He investigates... He investigates ALOT. And has been doing it for FORTY YEARS now.

Just a thought...

southpaw i visited alienhunter.org and one of the first things i found was how they hypnotise "abductees"

this is the biggest mistake any researcher can make when trying to validate any claims. Any data collected through hypnosis is most likely rusbbish sorry to say.

OK Frozen I have an example in fact several to illustrate how deceiving things can look from where you say you took your video .

As Defcon has pointed out from that distance what you see is not always at it appears.

I took all the screen shots using flow.web and Google earth so what you get are the exact GPS figures given for the aircraft at the time they took the image. Kindly note I have no control over the figures given because Google labels them.

OK Image one taken from where you told me the camera would be located on the beach give or take a few feet of course.



Note the Burke Identifier and then to the right is an arrow which points to an aircraft with out the Alt showing.

Now here is a screen shot of the aircraft identifier.



Now based on what you see what Alt would you guess the aircraft to be at?

Note I had to change Google Alt to get the aircraft symbol but the screen shot of Google earth was taken from where you told me you were.


Once you give me an Answer I will post the Google identifier showing the actual alt it was at, where it originated and where it was going using the google Earth Identifiers of course

[edit on 2/12/2007 by shots]

Nice post shots. I think we are going to find the answer soon.
The most important thing is always truth, not the belief.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
Looks like the OP should have known exactly what these were since 3 out of 4 runway approaches at Hopkins have their holding patterns over the lake near Burke.

I posted links to the PDF files very early on in the thread to prove that point. The OP Just insisted he was not shooting in the direction I thought it was.. In this Post he insisted the planes were flying east away from the airport which is not the case Perhaps he should carry a compass because at times he seems very cofused which direction he was facing. In the Original video when it goes into the night mode you can clearly see the shore line on the left and that is on the sothern shore of Erie.

It was at that point when combined with some of the other remarks that were made in various posts that I became very skeptical as is defcon5.

As it would happen Several aircraft were seen yesterday in the holding patterns mentioned and the OP also ignored those.

you can see the screen shots here

www.abovetopsecret.com...





[edit on 2/12/2007 by shots]

Ok everyone is interrogating Frozen on his footage. Let's not overlook the obvious, how many planes look like that at night. All you debunkers where is your footage of planes landing at night that looks like the footage frozen took. I search'd youtube of military and comercial planes landing at night and could not find anything even close to what is on that video. Yes its near an airport. Hoax or not, show me some evidence that planes look like that at night. Then we can close the case.

As I said in another post. I frequent mets games and shea stadium is located near 2 of the busiest airports in the world. (JFK and La Guardia).
I have seen hundreds upon hundreds of commercial aircraft at night in holding patterns and they look nothing like whats on that video. Maybe they are using new lights on the planes or something, IDK. Anyone have footage of a plane that looks like that please post.

Originally posted by Starwatcher
All you debunkers where is your footage of planes landing at night that looks like the footage frozen took.

I do not have a video camera, and even if I had, I do not have the right conditions at the moment.

As I said in my first post in the first thread that Frozenthought started, I have seen this type of thing many times. What I haven't said is that I have seen them all in good, dry weather, specially in Summer.

I cannot promise anything, but if I get some footage of what I see that looks like Frozenthought's video I will post it, but I am afraid it will take some months.

PS:I think all people reading this thread should start by reading the first one, here.