A World of Paper Tigers, like China!

russia is selling its soul to the devil.. China is gaining ground fast on russia. I dont think china would wait a second to stab russia in the back if it was at all possible.

And I tend to think russian weaponry is a bit cheesy on the looks as well as on the quality.. must be all the vodka mixed with the extreme cold!

[edit on 29-7-2007 by West Coast]

No one can rival the US militarily, much less Israel.

We own all aspects of warfare : water, ground and air.

Our nuclear subs can place nuclear warheads anywhere on earth. Let's say China decides to nuke the _entire_ US. They still have to think about all of our subs out there loaded down with nuclear weapons.

The next person we have all out war with (if such a thing even exist anymore) knows they got some Major Pain coming their way.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by discomfit]

Originally posted by West Coast
russia is selling its soul to the devil.. China is gaining ground fast on russia. I dont think china would wait a second to stab russia in the back if it was at all possible.

And I tend to think russian weaponry is a bit cheesy on the looks as well as on the quality.. must be all the vodka mixed with the extreme cold!

[edit on 29-7-2007 by West Coast]

Iff they backstab they do not get oil/gas/other resources like iron/gold/sillica and many more.

Plus China is getting a shower off nukes iff they do backstab wich they dont...

Russian weapons dont have quality??? Dream on boy DREAM on....

Under estimating your enemy had disasterous results in the past...

S-300 anyone??? much better then the Patriot...

Su-30 = equal to the F-18 S hornet...

So shutup you fool...

Originally posted by discomfit
No one can rival the US militarily, much less Israel.

We own all aspects of warfare : water, ground and air.

Our nuclear subs can place nuclear warheads anywhere on earth. Let's say China decides to nuke the _entire_ US. They still have to think about all of our subs out there loaded down with nuclear weapons.

The next person we have all out war with (if such a thing even exist anymore) knows they got some Major Pain coming their way.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by discomfit]

Big statement... big statement...

All off these superiour things are eliminated by counter measures off Russia... Russia is the country who is capable to destroy the USA and vice versa... Other country`s are also strong but they a mere pawns in comparison between Russia and the USA.

Own all aspects off war??? You clearly do not have the capablility to win the Iraq war and the Taliban has a nice base setted up to operate from and Al Qaeda is just as strong Iff not stronger then they were ever before so your army is clearly losing this war on terror................

i don't think china has any intention for fighting with russia
china only wants to get back taiwan

and all the preparations are for the possible regional conflict with the US in case they help to defend taiwan

just to prove the point, China is going to have a large scale join military exercise with Russia next month, along with 4 other SCO countries

PS. generally speaking, russian weapons don't have the same quality inputs as "western" weapons do, but russian weapons are cheaper and easier to produce in large scales on the other hand

[edit on 7/29/2007 by warset]

Point: Just about any SBLM can hit any worthwhile target in the world, from nearly any reasonable place. This is by no means unique to the U.S.A.

Point: Israel has a strong military, though it is nowhere near number two. Despite being a very pro-Russian source, warfare.ru had a reasonably good poll of the world's top five militaries.

Point: Russia is still the number two superpower, if only due to its energy and nuclear investments. While it is no longer a superpower -- It was recently, and caught itself within a decade from a [disastrous] fall. It may no longer be the conventional beast it was back in the seventies, eighties, but its unconventional forces, unrestricted, unlike NATO countries, are still a threat to any nation in the world.
[Talk about malfunctions all you want - Even if 80% of the deteriorated nuclear weapons failed, or 90%, they could still conceivably wipe out the United States. And vice-versa. That is the nature of nuclear war.]

Point: Iraq is not a war. We won the war -- Relatively bloodlessly, relatively overwhelmingly, relatively instantly. Occupation is infinitely different than a conventional war, and a supporter of Russia should recognize that.

Point: Al-Qaida is much weaker than before, the issue is that they are not continuing to become weaker.

Point: If you really want to pretend the War on Terror is an actual war, and Iraq is a legitimate battlefield to test America -- Then you should also include most middle-eastern nations, Russia, China, and several African nations as being the United States opponents. All of these nations provide logistical or material support to the fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as able and willing bodies.
See how absurd it is?

Point: Please go back to topic.

Originally posted by warset
well

i just wanna to point out that china at the current state will still have pretty much the same operational military force even with all its russian made weapons removed

only a small percent of the chinese weapons are russian made

Well you're wrong on both counts; and thats what I wanted to say in the first place.

CW,

I agree with you in general but there are some finer points which I thin kwe need to sort out. Esp stuff like I've just quoted above.
I'll post sometime tomorrow.

Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood

Originally posted by discomfit
No one can rival the US militarily, much less Israel.

We own all aspects of warfare : water, ground and air.

Our nuclear subs can place nuclear warheads anywhere on earth. Let's say China decides to nuke the _entire_ US. They still have to think about all of our subs out there loaded down with nuclear weapons.

The next person we have all out war with (if such a thing even exist anymore) knows they got some Major Pain coming their way.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by discomfit]

Big statement... big statement...

All off these superiour things are eliminated by counter measures off Russia... Russia is the country who is capable to destroy the USA and vice versa... Other country`s are also strong but they a mere pawns in comparison between Russia and the USA.

Own all aspects off war??? You clearly do not have the capablility to win the Iraq war and the Taliban has a nice base setted up to operate from and Al Qaeda is just as strong Iff not stronger then they were ever before so your army is clearly losing this war on terror................

okay.. to the 15 year old who called me a fool.... i chose to respond to this post because of the bold statements. It is said that the F22 raptors capabilities are so confidential and disclosed that what you see out on the raptor now (all the videos and specs) is only a measly 20% of what the actual aircraft can do. Now my point im trying to get acrossed here is that NO ONE knows the true US military weaponry capabilities, and for a reason. To say russia can counter US threat after threat is quite a bold statement. It comes off as ignorant chest thumping arrogance from a blind patriot.... its rather meaningless talk from two bloats on a conspiracy message board....Honestly what do we know?

As for second part of your statement.. the iraq statement... show me a battle we have lost over in Iraq? Show me one instance where the US military has been shown up. One fire fight where all hope was lost for the US military. Just one. We mass forces in falujah in the summer of 04, we successfully defeat the insurgants with relative impunity. Afghnistan.. You know that place that the soviets happend to get there asses kicked? WE OWN Afghanistan!

I remember reading a paper pre iraq war that stated that the US will role over IRaqs conventional forces rather quickly (it only took 3 weeks, this coming as a suprise to many russian generals BTW) but this samee paper said that if it became an insurgency the war would take alot longer. The US military is designed to kick ass and take names. It has done that.. it is very good at that. They are not a police force though. That is there role over in Iraq right now.... the FCS (future combat systems, look it up.. some interesting things the US military has been working on) will be better designed to deal with insurgencys... but thats still a few years down the road, though some technologys of the FCS are being incorporated into the current US military infrastructure. The Iraq war is not being lost on the battlefields like you seem to mistakenly think (perhaps wishfully on your part, facts be damned and all)

Originally posted by Iblis
Point: Iraq is not a war. We won the war -- Relatively bloodlessly, relatively overwhelmingly, relatively instantly. Occupation is infinitely different than a conventional war, and a supporter of Russia should recognize that.

Point: Al-Qaida is much weaker than before, the issue is that they are not continuing to become weaker.

Point: If you really want to pretend the War on Terror is an actual war, and Iraq is a legitimate battlefield to test America -- Then you should also include most middle-eastern nations, Russia, China, and several African nations as being the United States opponents. All of these nations provide logistical or material support to the fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as able and willing bodies.
See how absurd it is?

Point: Please go back to topic.

Point to you man for this post. Spot on! You seem to "get it".

Originally posted by warset

PS. generally speaking, russian weapons don't have the same quality inputs as "western" weapons do, but russian weapons are cheaper and easier to produce in large scales on the other hand

[edit on 7/29/2007 by warset]

a classic example of quantity over quality.

Originally posted by West Coast

okay.. to the 15 year old who called me a fool.... i chose to respond to this post because of the bold statements. It is said that the F22 raptors capabilities are so confidential and disclosed that what you see out on the raptor now (all the videos and specs) is only a measly 20% of what the actual aircraft can do. Now my point im trying to get acrossed here is that NO ONE knows the true US military weaponry capabilities, and for a reason. To say russia can counter US threat after threat is quite a bold statement. It comes off as ignorant chest thumping arrogance from a blind patriot.... its rather meaningless talk from two bloats on a conspiracy message board....Honestly what do we know?

True true..
So the Raptor could just as easily be invincible out there as it could be fatally vulnerable to certain methods and techs(again out there).
Afterall as you said, what do we know from either perspective..

As for second part of your statement.. the iraq statement... show me a battle we have lost over in Iraq? Show me one instance where the US military has been shown up. One fire fight where all hope was lost for the US military. Just one. We mass forces in falujah in the summer of 04, we successfully defeat the insurgants with relative impunity. Afghnistan.. You know that place that the soviets happend to get there asses kicked? WE OWN Afghanistan!

And so did the Soviets until they decided to leave.

Just like you will leave Afghanistan/Iraq one day.
And I think we can both agree that you will not be leaving Iraq/Afghanistan in a much better position than the Soviets did when they left.

Its easy to apply acutely relativistic opinions by saying that the Soviets got their 'asses kicked' and now the US is 'winning' every battle.
Its the same story.
Its just a bit easier for the US now as they have 'international opinion' on their side, and the resistance is not as strong as it was with the mujhahids fighting the soviets.
The Taleban aren't getting top-of-the-line equipment to use against forces in Afghanistan. The Mujhahids got the latest stuff from Uncle Sam, and that made it even harder for the Soviets.

It was tough on the soviets when they were in Afghanistan.
I feel many of their 'friends' let them down when they needed help. A shameful time for all Soviet allies.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

And so did the Soviets until they decided to leave.

Just like you will leave Afghanistan/Iraq one day.
And I think we can both agree that you will not be leaving Iraq/Afghanistan in a much better position than the Soviets did when they left.

Its easy to apply acutely relativistic opinions by saying that the Soviets got their 'asses kicked' and now the US is 'winning' every battle.
Its the same story.
Its just a bit easier for the US now as they have 'international opinion' on their side, and the resistance is not as strong as it was with the mujhahids fighting the soviets.
The Taleban aren't getting top-of-the-line equipment to use against forces in Afghanistan. The Mujhahids got the latest stuff from Uncle Sam, and that made it even harder for the Soviets.

That is a chapter that has yet to be written in a very long book. I read today on yahoo that US generals have come out and said that this war on terror will be a generation long fight.. So i can only assume that means we will be in Iraq and afghanistan a lot longer then you assume. We are building numerous permanent bases all over Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak.. We wont be going anywhere, anytime, soon. As for the US supplying the mujihadis with top of the line gear.. stinger missiles hardly apply as 'top of the line gear'. The US along with various other nations did help fund the war lords... that was probably there biggest commodity in there fight against the soviets.

It was tough on the soviets when they were in Afghanistan.
I feel many of their 'friends' let them down when they needed help. A shameful time for all Soviet allies.

The soviets were far from popular, and that didnt go without reason.. So forgive me if i do not share your sympathy in regards to those 'poor' soviets.
I cannot, and will not sympathize to a brutal ruthless dictatorship that didnt value the lives of there own ppl much less the worlds... In the end they got what they deserved.

Originally posted by West Coast

That is a chapter that has yet to be written in a very long book. I read today on yahoo that US generals have come out and said that this war on terror will be a generation long fight.. So i can only assume that means we will be in Iraq and afghanistan a lot longer then you assume. We are building numerous permanent bases all over Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak.. We wont be going anywhere, anytime, soon.

Wow.. Just what the doctor ordered. Planting the feet in deep aye?
Well.. that's another topic altogether..
How many dead since the 'end of the war' btw?

As for the US supplying the mujihadis with top of the line gear.. stinger missiles hardly apply as 'top of the line gear'. The US along with various other nations did help fund the war lords... that was probably there biggest commodity in there fight against the soviets.

You have got to be kidding me if you're saying that the Stinger was NOT topline in the 80s.
You are American aren't you?
Just check up when the stingers came into service with the US Army itself. The Mujhahids got em' just a few years after.

The soviets were far from popular, and that didnt go without reason.. So forgive me if i do not share your sympathy in regards to those 'poor' soviets.
I cannot, and will not sympathize to a brutal ruthless dictatorship that didnt value the lives of there own ppl much less the worlds... In the end they got what they deserved.

I never asked you to sympathize
Its something that is native only to soviet allies of yesteryear.
Wouldn't expect an American to feel sorry for commies now!

And what you say has such an immensely ironic boomerang/dejavous effect on the current Iraqi occupation, its almost funny

I thought it was time to update the thread with the recent economic downturn has shown the weakness in China with workers rioting and the boom cities becoming bust!

Chinese workers riot . . .

More riots . . .

and more riots . . .

and there maybe even more problems in China as almost 40% of its economy is based on exports to west

More Trouble for the Paper Tiger!

China has had great growth, but even with a bloated defense budget their Navy is still under matched as a world naval power and they are way over matched in terms of nuclear weapons by over a 10:1 margin.

World Nuclear Weapons

Finally, here is a report from the Office of Naval Intelligence on the Chinese Navy 2007 report. China is really trying to put together a Navy that can defends it shores and invade Taiwan.

ONI China Navy Report

Originally posted by mel1962
I thought it was time to update the thread with the recent economic downturn has shown the weakness in China with workers rioting and the boom cities becoming bust

So about 1,000 people riot against a FACTORY OWNER and its somehow linked to the collapse of China?. Some areas have already been paid off by the local government until the former owners are aressted

and there maybe even more problems in China as almost 40% of its economy is based on exports to west

Chinese economy = $3.42Trillion
Chinese exports = $1.22 trillion


Chinese imports are not even 40% of Chinas economy let alone 40% of that being based on exports to the west. It totals about 500billion of 1.22Trillion which is not even half

bloated defense budget their Navy is still under matched as a world naval power and they are way over matched in terms of nuclear weapons by over a 10:1 margin.

Talk about bloated

Chinese defense budget = 63Billion
American defense budget = 630billion

That iss about 1:10 or the ratio you posted

Chinese defense budget = 63Billion
American defense budget = 630billion

Which is why the military vehicles in your threads are so busted.

So about 1,000 people riot against a FACTORY OWNER and its somehow linked to the collapse of China?. Some areas have already been paid off by the local government until the former owners are aressted

No it's more linked to the civil liberties atrocities and ZERO workers rights in the factories in China. This is why we can buy all your crap for less than a dollar.

Originally posted by blowfishdl
No it's more linked to the civil liberties atrocities and ZERO workers rights in the factories in China. This is why we can buy all your crap for less than a dollar.

There are worker rights in China, but they are faunted regularly because the Chinese system of development is not as advanced as Americas and hence our title as a Third world nation. It wouldn't be to bold to suggest that Chinese workers have it better than other nations at a similar stage such as Japan in the 1960s, Korea in the 1970s or Taiwan in the 80s.

Originally posted by semperfoo

This is a pretty good read by the futurist, it goes into great depth about what it takes for any nation to become a superpower. And it compares China and the US.... Its a good read.

futurist.typepad.com...

[edit on 042828p://3902pm by semperfoo]

TY Semperfoo for this... it made me proud to be an American... sometimes we don't see the forest through the tree's

The United States is a Great Country .. all you third worlders out there can say all ya want .. but at the end of the day, if there's an earth ending event or major crisis in the world, you all look at us! But of course, none of your countries stand up, let alone resolving an issue!

A recent example? Our FBI team going to India.. and you know what follows then? God help the terrorist organization that propogated that attack, or their training camps .. 'cause they going bye bye... like the flame of a candle being snuffed out.....

What about the indonesia Tsunami? China ...was ... right ... next ... door ... and they NEVER came to their aid! NEVER, It was the US of A!

God Bless America

reply to post by ArcAngel


Yes, we are not ready to cut and run and turn over the world to the likes of Paper Tigers! We still have enough nukes to do this planet up real good . . . we have our problems but we will work them out . . .