A World of Paper Tigers, like China!

Really funny since I live in Australia

Originally posted by chinawhite
Really funny since I live in Australia

That makes it even more of a mystery? Should I post the evidence?

Anyway you are proof what a paper tiger, if you can be tracked down by me. I am sure the CIA has already done that!

Originally posted by mel1962
Should I post the evidence?

Post away

Originally posted by mel1962

Originally posted by chinawhite
Really funny since I live in Australia

That makes it even more of a mystery? Should I post the evidence?

Anyway you are proof what a paper tiger, if you can be tracked down by me. I am sure the CIA has already done that!

i wonder how old are you to talk like that.

i thought most high school kids know better these days

No way, man, they still remember that China kicked their(or I should say the union army) asses in north korea 50 years ago^_^
It is a very paintful memory for them, do you think they dare to stand the PLA with moderm weapons? lol

Originally posted by Luketao
America can invade China!! Welcome American soldiers

China has WMD. China is in dictatorship, and is the protector of all global dictators. China oppose America values and ideology. So, invade China!!

[edit on 27-2-2007 by Luketao]

Time to update that China is a Paper Tiger! I think there inability to influence events beyond there border is beginning to change politically and economically. But, until you talk the talk and walk the walk you are a paper tiger.

Paper Tiger Update!



[edit on 7/22/07 by mel1962]

The original question was about the next superpower. This will be China. An argument can be made they are already a superpower.

America's only blessing is a fact of geography in that it's hard for an organized military force to invade our country. It has been invaded 1 person at a time but that is a different issue and a different topic.

Modern warfare does not require a large army to invade a country. It just requires a mind set of how much damage can we absorb in order to kill our enemy. If China lobbed several missiles and took out several dozen large populated ares of the western USA, WE would be piss*d. We would retaliate in kind. The fallout from those explosions would also come back home to the USA.

online.wsj.com...

This limited engagement would also devastate the world economy. Now who would be the winner? The USA that imports much of it products from overseas markets or China that produces much of the world's products.

The USA has a tremendous economy, people would say. When looking at raw numbers, China uses more tonnage in all construction areas. Within 5 years, all economic statistics will be a mute point in these matters and, by then, India will also be a larger market than the USA in many areas of the economy also.

With a cash strapped Russia that is full of raw resources in Siberia, which just happens to be due north of China, China is the perfect position to import material at a very low transportation cost.

China also happens to hold much of the current USA debt and if this was called in, the USA would find itself bankrupt. Not a good day to buy on the stock market when this happens. China has been shedding dollar reserves that it owns, for the last couple of years, to strengthen their Yen. They have done this deliberately slow as to not hurt the dollars value very much. If they would flood the market at the same time of calling in debt, this would be a very bad day.

The USA will be a major player for several more generations with regard to military matters. We do have good military equipment that is battle tested. China will be the next world class superpower and in direct competition with different goals than the USA.

This is hard for us American to understand.

Originally posted by Cthulwho
I think the EU is actually putting more effort into arming China then they are themselves, if only they were legally allowed to sell China weapons. Also, Russia...what's the deal with Russia? China will probably be a massive threat to Russian security in the future, so what do they do? They do everything they can to help China militarise, eg selling them weapons/tech.

EDIT: Yeah that Su-22 does look pretty cool (bit old though), I also like how the Su-47 looks www.airforce-technology.com...

[edit on 10-2-2007 by Cthulwho]

What you fail to relise is the weapons that Rus sells to Chi, i.e. SS-22, S-300's have special devices installed in them before they are sold that will make sure these weapons can not lock on to Russia Military Craft/ Planes Russia is not as stupid as U.S. thinks.

Originally posted by YASKY
What you fail to relise is the weapons that Rus sells to Chi, i.e. SS-22, S-300's have special devices installed in them before they are sold that will make sure these weapons can not lock on to Russia Military Craft/ Planes Russia is not as stupid as U.S. thinks.

Even I fail to realise that.
I'm skeptical about the possibility of such devices.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by YASKY
What you fail to relise is the weapons that Rus sells to Chi, i.e. SS-22, S-300's have special devices installed in them before they are sold that will make sure these weapons can not lock on to Russia Military Craft/ Planes Russia is not as stupid as U.S. thinks.

Even I fail to realise that.
I'm skeptical about the possibility of such devices.

But who are you, if Russian military personell say this then they know more than you, if it was an American who said this about U.S. stuff, you wouldn't have made that statement.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by YASKY]

Because we are American does not make us racist against the Russians, or Chinese, Yaksy.

The problem is, even if such devices existed, and, to my knowledge they're only said to exist on missiles, what would stop the Chinese, who are notoriously good at reverse-engineering -- Such as how they've reverse-engineered so much of 'your and mine' equipment, from disabling and discovering such devices?

This would make sense, though, Yaksy, I sincerely doubt it has occured.

Originally posted by YASKY

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by YASKY
What you fail to relise is the weapons that Rus sells to Chi, i.e. SS-22, S-300's have special devices installed in them before they are sold that will make sure these weapons can not lock on to Russia Military Craft/ Planes Russia is not as stupid as U.S. thinks.

Even I fail to realise that.
I'm skeptical about the possibility of such devices.

But who are you, if Russian military personell say this then they know more than you, if it was an American who said this about U.S. stuff, you wouldn't have made that statement.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by YASKY]

Heads up:
I am Indian. I have the highest regard for Russian/Soviet equipment and more so for the people serving in their military.
I believe my country has done a decent job of showcasing,using and successfully working Russian military hardware over the last 50 years; a glaring difference amongst the repeated displays of underperformance of this hardware in the hands of many other countries.

So I do not speak of Russian military hardware, from a complete outsider's point of view.
Infact the best air superiority fighter Russia has built so far, operates from an AFB not more than 20 miles from my home.

I agree that it is technically possible to prevent certain hardware from working in a particular fashion; but I also believe that Russia has not followed this approach as it would involve a lot of money and infrastructural investment at a very percolated level(in every industry, assembly factory, packaging plant); something Russia did not have until very very recently.
I also believe countries like India and China have the technical know how to detect the presence of such 'locks'; maybe not disable them; but detect them at the very least.

So summarizing I think such 'devices' would not have been feasible for the Russians to install; definitely not until say the last 3-4 years.

lol
man it has been quite a while since the last time i came to this forum

the thing is you see, most chinese weapons are indigenous

china is only interested in the technology used on those weapons, not the weapons themselves

and that's the biggest difference between china and india

most weapons china uses today are based either on indigenous technology or learned from western/russian technology

but very few are directly "bought" from other country

if you check the record, china had only bought a couple of commercial copies from the other countries in the past few years, and most are for studies purposes rather than direct military use



ps. beside, china is more looking forward to western technology trend than russian trend, simply due to the fact that the bad quality of russian weapons cannot meet the current chinese requirement

[edit on 7/28/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
lol
man it has been quite a while since the last time i came to this forum

the thing is you see, most chinese weapons are indigenous

china is only interested in the technology used on those weapons, not the weapons themselves

and that's the biggest difference between china and india

most weapons china uses today are based either on indigenous technology or learned from western/russian technology

but very few are directly "bought" from other country

if you check the record, china had only bought a couple of commercial copies from the other countries in the past few years, and most are for studies purposes rather than direct military use



ps. beside, china is more looking forward to western technology trend than russian trend, simply due to the fact that the bad quality of russian weapons cannot meet the current chinese requirement

[edit on 7/28/2007 by warset]

Care to elaborate?

Like the enitre S-300 fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire Su-30MKK/MK2/MK3 fleet that is Russian..
Like the enitre Kilo Type 636 sub fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire Sovermeny Destroyer Class that is Russian..
Like the Entire Su-27(not J-11) fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire AA-10, AA-12, Sunburn, Kh-XX series missiles that are Russian.

These are all the key components that are vital to China's military that I can think of.
There are numerous other secondary components that are of direct Russian origin.


Agreed that the sheer quantity of Chinese military hardware is more 'indigenous/independant' as compared to India, but the percentages are not so different.
Check your numbers.

Originally posted by warset

ps. beside, china is more looking forward to western technology trend than russian trend, simply due to the fact that the bad quality of russian weapons cannot meet the current chinese requirement

[edit on 7/28/2007 by warset]

Well said by someone of chinese origin? living in the west.


We should talk...
really..

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Care to elaborate?

Like the enitre S-300 fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire Su-30MKK/MK2/MK3 fleet that is Russian..
Like the enitre Kilo Type 636 sub fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire Sovermeny Destroyer Class that is Russian..
Like the Entire Su-27(not J-11) fleet that is Russian..
Like the entire AA-10, AA-12, Sunburn, Kh-XX series missiles that are Russian.

lets see what are the "real stuff" china uses

for S-300, the real thing is called HQ-9, which is like a hybrid weapon of the patriots and S-300

for Su-27, the real thing is called J-11A/B

for Naval fighters, the main force uses JH-7B rather than Su-30

for Sovermeny Destroyer, there are only 4 outdated ones; they are really just for "scaring taiwan and other SEAN countries" IMO
so the newer generation of ships can be built

the newer Aegus ships (Type 051C/052C/054A) are the real stuff and along with the Type 071 and possible future carriers

the current trend is quite clear that china wanna those large antiship missiles to be deployed on H-6H/K flying platforms rather than on ships

and Kilo, again, are really just for study purpose, and there are like 2 of them deployed, its not like 2 are going to change any thing
for battery subs, china will more likely to make more Type 039A Yuan class sub than buying more kilos since they pretty much do the same stuff

and also last 2 weeks china has just revealed its long waited new 093 attack sub and improved 091G attack sub
and also satelite photo showing the possible 094 as well

china also has recently revealed its Beidou navigation system
so far 5 satellites are in orbit, and more are expected to be added in the future

[edit on 7/28/2007 by warset]

Originally posted by warset
lets see what are the "real stuff" china uses
[edit on 7/28/2007 by warset]

Ok.. first off:

You don't lose dependancy on a/c by renaming them and assembling knockdowns.
Moreover it is moral ettiquette to keep the same names as a sign of affirmation towards the designer/producer.
Finally its downright dirty to sell unlicensed versions of hardware you bought from one party to another 3rd party..
...cough...MiG-21...cough...

for Su-27, the real thing is called J-11A/B

Ok now about the Su-27s and the J-11s and the Su-30s:

1. There are a definite number of Su-27SK/UBKs currently in servivce with the PLAAF.
   
2. All Su-30s MKK/MKK2s are brought in straight from Russia.
   
3. J-11s are an offshoot of a licensed production of the Su-27. I hear the latest modifications include chinese avionics and electronics,wiring to enable use of chinese missiles and possibly a new radar. All well and good; but not much diferent from the Su-30MKI India has; assembled and packaged with locally made components including RWR and avionics.
   

Check up the numbers; 2/3rds of the Su-27+ fleet(All Su-27SK/UBKs + Su-30MKK/MK2) of the PLAAF is purely Russian, i.e. not J-11.

for Naval fighters, the main force uses JH-7B rather than Su-30

Okay.. whatever..if you say so!
Hec the 'main-fighting force' of the PLAAF are the MiG-21 deriavatives(your JH-7) but the Su-30 is the best air superiority fighter in the PLAAF arsenal save maybe the J-10 and I'm not too sure of that either.

Oh and btw, the MiG 21 is the mainstay of most Russian supplied Air Forces including the IAF.

for S-300, the real thing is called HQ-9, which is like a hybrid weapon of the patriots and S-300

Here's a quote from sinodefence:

....By the time the HQ-9 was ready for operational deployment in the late 1990s, the missile was already behind foreign air-defence missiles such as U.S. PAC3 and Russian S-300PMU2 in terms of technology and performance. Only a small number of the HQ-9A are being deployed by the PLA for operational trial and evaluations. The naval variant of the HQ-9A is deployed onboard the Type 052C destroyer which was commissioned in 2004.

Again check the numbers.
How many S-300s are protecting chinese cities and military sites as opposed to this HQ-9.
Which missile gets the high priority sites?
India is in a similar state. Lots of programs running but currently all operational SAM defences are Russian.

for Sovermeny Destroyer, there are only 4 outdated ones; they are really just for "scaring taiwan and other SEAN countries" IMO
so the newer generation of ships can be built

the newer Aegus ships (Type 051C/052C/054A) are the real stuff and along with the Type 071 and possible future carriers

Ok.. if you say so.
Just be sure to check the specs on the Type 51C/52C as compared to the Sovermmeny.
Also while you're at it, just check how many indegenous destroyer class vessels are in service with the Indian Navy.
You can compare ship stats too.
Finally be sure to check on what ships are in the process of being built locally, including the 40000 ton carrier(no.. its not being re-built from a purchased scrap-hull).

and Kilo, again, are really just for study purpose, and there are like 2 of them deployed, its not like 2 are going to change any thing
for battery subs, china will more likely to make more Type 039A Yuan class sub than buying more kilos since they pretty much do the same stuff

Well there are 2 type 877EKM Kilos and 8 Type 636 Kilos.
10 subs; that's just a bit too much for purely 'study purposes' aye?
The Kilo class is the mainstay of the high-end conventional PLAN SSK fleet.
The Yuan is just revealed and it will need to pass loads of tests before being operationalised and produced in numbers.

and also last 2 weeks china has just revealed its long waited new 093 attack sub and improved 091G attack sub
and also satelite photo showing the possible 094 as well

True. China has always pursued an indegenous N-sub program. Maybe ists because nobody wanted to seel China N-subs of their own?
Makes sense aye?
Same with India. Though I agree India is behind in the N-sub dept. India hasn't got its first N-sub to work as yet(slated circa 2010).

So I'm not ridiculing China local industries, but I'm asking you not to ridicule Indian programs as well.

Thanks,
DD3

Originally posted by Daedalus3
J-11s are an offshoot of a licensed production of the Su-27. I hear the latest modifications include chinese avionics and electronics,wiring to enable use of chinese missiles and possibly a new radar. All well and good; but not much diferent from the Su-30MKI India has; assembled and packaged with locally made components including RWR and avionics.

The latest J-11B uses exclusive Chinese parts in all major areas. They are not licensed parts made in china, they are a byproduct of Chinese RnD. They are not just re-wired for chinese weapons, the modifications go much further than that. They are a modernised Chinese made product which offers multi role capacity equaling the MKK and utlising newer technology. IRIS, MAWS, WS-10A engine, Radar, weapons and a slightly modified airframe with higher carbon content have all been changed on the J-11B.

Its different from Indias example in the fact that they are chinese products not manufractured items under licensed in the case of the avionics of the MKI. The J-11B was entirely made in china without a kit supplied by the Russians like the MKI

The J-11B is not the mainstream of the Su-27 as yet, but production is going on at a fast rate and the future upgrades of the initially brought Su-27SK will be done by china herself. This was one of the reasons why the Su-27 modification program stalled intially because the J-11B was still in a testing phase

Hec the 'main-fighting force' of the PLAAF are the MiG-21 deriavatives(your JH-7) but the Su-30 is the best air superiority fighter in the PLAAF arsenal save maybe the J-10 and I'm not too sure of that either

Not necessarily true anymore. I would think the J-8 series would be up there with more than 300 aircraft produced and the J-8H/F still continuing production. The Su-27/30 would also number about 300 aircraft as well. The MiG-21 and its improved Chinese versions probably number about 300 or so fighters as well. The normal fighter count instead newly produced J-7's and old ones together but the J-7E/G are not getting produced to make more squads but rather to replace the aging J-7I/II fighters which have been around for a long time.

There are probably 100+ J-10s figure most likely 120~140. Not active service but in a degree of production/ deployment. By all reports, the J-10s out match the Su-27/30 in military trials, as do some seasoned J-7E pilots at the Chengdu testing range.

The Chinese air force is not reliant on Russian imports on its aircraft. It probably is about 10% of Chinese aircraft need Russian weapons or assistance, which is different from Indias situation where something like 95% of weapons and spare parts are acquired overseas. In the next 10 years, most equipment in chinese service will use chinese built weapons and use chinese made spare parts

Finally be sure to check on what ships are in the process of being built locally, including the 40000 ton carrier(no.. its not being re-built from a purchased scrap-hull).

The Chinese military could have easily hired Fincantieri, DCN or other "commercial" aircraft carrier builders to advise them on building a aircraft carrier. The IAC had a lot of input from Fincantieri which built the Cavour class aircraft carrier. Obviously, Indian designers did not design the carrier themselves but hired a proven company to "advise" them on design and construction.

Chinese designers would have had dozens of potential designs for carriers and an array of foreign advisers telling them how to build a carrier. In fact, spain was trying to sell china an aircraft carrier and then trying to sell them a design for a aircraft carrier. But because India and china have different defense priorities china did not build a carrier small carrier from scratch but is using a proven design to build something which offers that type of capability

The Destroyers are evenly matched, although china has more designs(better - incorparating stealth), more ships and improved capabilities in airdefence, I believe anti-ship missiles are more evenly matched with the BrahMos enters full service. Very similar frigates from a frontal POV. Similar systems but the Talwar will have a better Anti-ship system when the BrahMos enters full deployment although the Type-054A has more Anti-aircraft missiles in a VLS configuration. Project 17 is very similar in configuration with the Type-054A although much larger

The Kilo class is the mainstay of the high-end conventional PLAN SSK fleet.
The Yuan is just revealed and it will need to pass loads of tests before being operationalised and produced in numbers.

What about the Song Class?. I rate them as important a part of the PLAN fleet as the Kilo submarines. Although they don't have the reputation of the Kilo submarines, they offer similar capability.

With the Chinese military and news you get off the internet, its normally a few years old. The first picture of the Yuan was taken in early 2004 but we only first saw that picture in 2005 and news about the new submarine only filtered in late 2005. Obviously the submarine would have to have been built earlier at that stage and no one knew about it. I guess there is not much more news on the Yuan class because its entering service and not much information can be acquired once china shuts off the light. Most likely a new version of the submarine has already entered sea trials and we as yet will know anything about it.

Another example is the 093 and 094 submarines which have just recently been released. A nuclear submarine obviously needs time to be built (a time close to 10 years) so for 10 year prior we had no idea of a new class of nuclear submarine being built in china.



Here is the 093 on sea trials which might have occurred in 2004/05 from reports from that time.

Anyway, China has more indigenous options than India does

So I'm not ridiculing China local industries, but I'm asking you not to ridicule Indian programs as well.

China and India are on the same scale of development, just moving past Russian stocks and kits and building true indigenous equipment. Although china is ahead at this stage because they were forced to develop that equipment. It good to see both sides developing well looking inward for innovation and designs instead of looking outward

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Like the enitre S-300 fleet that is Russian..

128 TEL in a military with about 2000 missile lanuchers. Although the S-300 is significantly more importantly. It protects the highest asset areas. The HQ-9 missile will most likely replace the HQ-2 in service.

I would like to note that the HQ-9A was chosen over the Russian S-300 derivatives for the Chinese Type-52C which suggest that they got something right in that design

Like the entire Su-30MKK/MK2/MK3 fleet that is Russian, Like the Entire Su-27(not J-11) fleet that is Russian..

76 + 76 aircraft in a 1500 strong air force

Like the enitre Kilo Type 636 sub fleet that is Russian..

12 submarines in a 60+ something submarine force

Like the entire Sovermeny Destroyer Class that is Russian..

4 destroyers in a force of 29 destroyers

Like the entire AA-10, AA-12, Sunburn, Kh-XX series missiles that are Russian.

They are weapons for the above systems, the Kh-XX series is being made in china

well

i just wanna to point out that china at the current state will still have pretty much the same operational military force even with all its russian made weapons removed

only a small percent of the chinese weapons are russian made

things like the Sovremenny class was really an act of desperation to fill the gap in the transition period between the old outdated weapons and the newer generation