One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

Hvitserk

ok now to the point : in most european countries ,

denying the holocaust is considered as

"thought crime" and punished by fines and even prison

sentences

Please do not start that topic, we have many threads covering that specific topic, a discussion of the holocaust is going to be raucus enough, we don't need an extra disctraction.

Originally posted by Akareyon
it's not easy for me to mold my thoughts into english words.

Really? I wouldn't've guessed. Your english is excellent.

It makes it even harder for me if you're playing rough.

Fair enough. But if I sound 'rough' its only because I try to be exacting in what I am saying. I don't personally have anything against most of the people on the site.

Yes, I'm sometimes so paranoid that when somebody says "good morning" I look at my watch to verify it's not past twelve yet.

But it's full of quotes from official, public sources and, whatever its author's intentions may be, it can easily be used as propagande.

We can have statements that, say, contradict some individual's story, but that doesn't really matter, we have other accounts that aren't contradicted, often from SS officers and camp operators themselves, and we have physical evidence, in terms of the physical infrastructure of hte camps, with gas chambers, and official documents tabulating the processes.

That's why it is so potentially dangerous and should be seriously and openly discussed in a place like ATS.

I think that discussion is great, I don't think that our members are actual nazis in disguise. I think that many of the holocaust denier 'historians' out there, however, are frauds, they're not historians, they're nazis. Because the evidence isn't at all in their favour, and they know it, but they push propaganda anyway.

subz
Has any one ever considered why the alleged "gas chamber" was situated next door to the living quarters of the Camp Commandant and his family?

Subs, its a gas chamber. It has doors that seal pressure tight, so none of the air in it can leak out. It has powerful vents, to clear the room of the gas after it was used. It has drawers with wire mesh so that the Zyklon-B crystals can be put in and allowed to work. It has fake shower heads. And the door on the other side opens directly into the camp's morgue.
They stuffed people in one door, gased them to death, and then pulled them out the other door into the morgue.

until scholars forced the camp custodians to erect a sign stating the chambers are American built and not actually built by the Nazis.

The scholars never ONCE said that the gas chambers didn't exist. The americans didn't build gas chambers, they were already there.

Auschwitz's official death toll was revised downwards from 4 million dead, to 1 million combined Jewish and Gentile

And how did they manage to systematically kill 1 million people at that one location subz? It was through the gas chambers and starvation programme.

As far as that meaning that there was 'not all that many' jews that died in the holocaust:

www.nizkor.org...
The Soviet estimate, however, was made purely on the basis of the following calculus involving the estimated daily incineration capacity and the number of days the Kremas (i.e.crematoria and gas chambers) were in operation [...]It should be pointed, however, that this erroneous Soviet estimate in no way diminishes the Jewish death toll in the Holocaust of six million victims nor the total Holocaust death toll of twelve million victims[...]it should be most emphatically pointed out that the mainstream of historians and Holocaust researchers have never concurred with the Soviet estimate for the death toll at Auschwitz. [...] statistics regarding the number of transports bound for Auschwitzdo not add up to anywhere near four million people, indicating thatthe Kremas were frequently idle for days at a time. Another is thatthe Kremas were often subject to breakdowns which idled them for weeksat a time. (In the case of Krema IV, it was only operational for a fewweeks before irreparable damage to its furnaces idled it permanently.)In fact, the daily incineration capacity of the Kremas caused such asevere bottleneck during Aktion Höss (i.e. the extermination ofthe Hungarian Jews in the summer of 1944) that the SS had to resort tousing incineration pits in addition to the Kremas to get rid of thebodies.

Israeli scholar Yehuda Bauer along side Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust Center.

And how many people do they say were killed during the holocaust subz?

www1.yadvashem.org...
More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59–5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million.

en.wikipedia.org...
Bauer believes that Hitler was the key figure in causing the Holocaust, and that at some point in the later half of 1941, he gave a series of orders for the genocide of the entire Jewish people[...]He has often taken exception to those who argue that the Holocaust was just another genocide. Though he agrees that there have been other genocides in history that have targeted groups other than Jews, he argues that the Holocaust was the worst single case of genocide in history, in which every member of a nation was selected for annihilation, and that it therefore holds a special place in human history

and

Deduct the nearly six million Jews, and you have many more than Wiesenthal’s five million[...] To call what happened to the non-Jewish victims ‘the Holocaust’ is ‘simply’ false.

So far from this guy saying that there was no holocaust, he was saying that there was a holocaust, and that it was entirely focused on the jews, and killed around 6 million of them.

tom goose
Israel, smack dab in the middle of jerusilum. how convenient.

So what are you saying, that they made up the holocaust or not? What was convenient about it? The british had promised them the holy land long before the holocaust, and if it finalized their handing it over, so what? You're saying that you don't know if the holocaust happened or not, why? What evidence contradicts that there was a holocaust of around 6 million jews?????

We've got two pages of comments now, and still, no evidence.


[edit on 2-2-2007 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by Quicksilver
I am not saying the numbers are definitely correct but honestly 4million dead or 6 million dead. Does it really matter? This is just the dead though. That does not count the seriously injured physically or mentally.

Finally someone who really understands it.

I personally think it's absurd anyone can deny the holocaust was anything less than mass murder. With much of the SS trying to cover their tracks, it will be impossible to ever know the full extent of the pain and suffering Nazi Germany caused. When dealing with millions of deaths, of course there will be miscalculations..

The evidence of the Holocaust is OVERWHELMING. It was real. Deal with that fact. :shk:

As stated by most maybe the exact figures are wrong about how many died..... I t does not matter if it was 4 or 5 or six million.... The Death Camps Existed .... The only spin that came from this was maybe the misconception that it was s jewish holocost...it was a broad ranging Holocost there are records, photographs, skeletons, documents, films, witnesses, graves, clothes, dentures, Experiment Results (liek the pressure experiments) of the Millions who were killed persecuted, raped, made sterile, experimented on and starved to death by the Nazi regime

However

Forget Jewish Holocost it was a Gypsys, Roman Catholic, Homosexual, Learning and Physical and Mental Disabled, Gypsy, Russian and Arabic Holocost all these groups were rounded up and subject to it.

To believe otherwise with the overwhelming evidense is stupid, ignornat and very naive.

I cant beleive people actually believe this is true... please look at the following Im sure you will agree:


The Flat Earth Society

Im sure you have a lot in common

Regards

Elf

The thing is, it DOES matter what the death toll was. If they killed 4 million, then yes, it was horrible, and if the intent was to wipe out the jews in germany, and they 'only' got to 4 million, then its still horrendous.

But it wasn't 4 million. It was around 6 million. It matters, because that WAS how many people were killed.

Also, many holocaust deniers will say that it was 4 million, and then say that the jews lied to make it seem like it was even more, to bring up more sympathy for themselves in order to get israel. SO they aren't denying the holocaust, but are saying that the jews took advantage of it.

False. They didn't lie about the numnbers, it was not 4 million, it was around 6 million people that were destroyed.

I really hate these posts! Many are still alive and tatooed today that can give a first hand account as to what went down in these death camps. Your trying to decieve yourself.

Well over the years I can recall various things that these Nazis are alleged to have done.

The poor Nazis have been accused of making soap, lampshades and allsorts from the dead. Painting pictures of happy partying people on the side of trucks taking them to their deaths. The authenticity of all this is still debated. But who knows?

As I understand it the troops in Poland shot so many civvies face to face that their commanders were a little concerned about the affect on moral.
Was that a contributing factor in the Final Solution?

I am not a huge fan of the shonkies but I think there may be some truth in the holocaust. My problem is the way it is made out to be just a Jewish thing. Gypsies, Pikies, disabled, coloureds, Gehovahs, they had it in for a lot of people. The preservation of the Master Race was all that mattered.

I find it amusing that a short bloke, with one testicle, from Austria was telling them what a perfect German was like!!

Deny the Holocaust? What the hell was all that Zyclon B used for?
Mengele and his experiments, did he really do them just for a laugh?

If denying something makes it go away, then I deny my mortgage repayments, my infidelity with the sister-in-law, my missus leaving me because of it and lastly I deny that I did not win the lottery last Saturday

If Ostriches really did bury their heads in the sand then Holocaust deniers are Ostriches. Either that or they go round with their fingers in their ears saying loudly "La de la la dum la la".

They were naughty boys allright.

There again I'll watch the video, maybe I will be converted....and the daylight sky is coloured green

Nygan

Point taken...of course I was not meaning to be "flippant" about 1 life that was taken.... and you are right if it was 4 million and 1 and not 4 million that one persons life is as important as the rest. I mentioned 4 million because it seems to be banded about a bit...Im no expert in this I dont really know the true figures or research them... I believe though that more probably died than we know about in the trains on the way... in the gettos of warsaw and germany... in fields away from others glare...

I know one thing and agree with most here... It was a holocosty of many groups... with the jewish race concentrated on.... it was and is a very important matter and should never be forgotten or dismissed as fabrication like some do. It is so easy for it to happen again like it has in recent times Tibet and Sudan and also the Tutis genocide happened here and continues often in worse situations (e.g. in Tibet celibate Monks were forced to rape their mothers and sisters and fathers before being shot in the head... the price of the bullet is then taken from the mother of the victim (last evidensed report of this 1987!)...if she never had the money they would take her possesions)

Ultimately it seems that Humankind has not learnt, has not evolved in this matter and to deny the original Holocost of recent times is the same as giving a Murderer a weapon... By denying the horrors and negating them ythey open up the way for it to happen again.

Evil is rare IMHO on earth... even murders are usually in haste and crimes of passion... however evil did lurk these camps and is still at work in the other countries as mentioned above. To appease it and to give it power and any credance is just joining hands with the deveil figuratively.

No offence meant for that one extra life or 2 million lost...truly.

Regards

Elf.

Originally posted by Grailkeeper
What makes me wonder is, who actually started the speculation of the Holocaust never happening?

Was it Nazi supporters?

Was is Germany itself, trying to save face?

Was it the people being tried for the attrocities in the first place?

Maybe some of the SURVIVORS.

There are a lot of anti-zionist Jews and Rabbis (some of which where in those camps) that claim the numbers were inflated, or that the murdering was allowed to continue but NOT that it didn't happen.

They claim that it was/is used as an excuse to claim Palestine and political leveraging. They also say that Zionist leaders were made legitimate offers from European countries that were rejected. Allowing more time for Jews and gentiles to be exterminated.

Obviously there were mass killings...I mean that's a given. Anyone that claims it never happened it a fool. Anyone that claims it could have been exaggerated and manipulated is presenting a conspiracy theory which is what this site is all about.

Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

TEN QUESTIONS TO THE ZIONISTS
1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:

a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and

b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and

c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:

a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.

b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.

c) No ransom will be paid
4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

more?

The claim that is was used for political leverage is silly. THe british, who controlled palestine, had long before hitler was around promised the land to the jews as a future jewish state. The holocaust only re-itereated the drastic need for it.

The fact is, the nazis tried to exterminate all the jews in europe, they succeded in killing around 6 million in the camps. There were other public attacks on jew before that, and the russians even invented a word for raiding a town of jews, a pogrom. These things actually happened.

And as far as israel, most jews that oppose it tend to reject it becuase it wasn't seized for them by the promised Messiah. They don't object to having a state, they are merely making a religious claim to it not being the correct, messiah-derived, state, its an internal religious struggle amoungst the jews, so its no surprise that some of them make oulandish and outrageous allegations.

Whether it happened as history describes or not I don't know. What I do know is that the Holocaust Industry now has 38 Museums in 18 different counties. They're sufferring,, and the reminders of, surplant every other genocide in history?....This is why there will always be doubts as to the truth out of WW2. ....It seems more like political and moral insulation for the supposed 'chosen ones'

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Whether it happened as history describes or not I don't know.

Really? Why? Because the evidence pretty clearly shows that they did it.

What I do know is that the Holocaust Industry now has 38 Museums in 18 different counties.

An industry eh?

and the reminders of, surplant every other genocide in history?

Why shouldnt' the jews keep people aware of the attempt to eradicate them?

If the Armenians aren't doing a good job of keeping people aware of the turks trying to wipe them out, or the greeks of the turks ethnically cleansing them out, then thats their problem, its hardly the 'fault' of the jews.

And the mere fact that there are several people in this thread alone that 'don't know if the holocaust happened or not' pretty clearly shows that there's a need for jewish groups to keep up holocaust remembrance efforts.

....This is why there will always be doubts as to the truth out of WW2. ....It seems more like political and moral insulation for the supposed 'chosen ones'

Seems more like some of the people denying the holocaust have something against the 'chosen ones' and their 'holocaust industry'.

The thread topic really isn't about if the Jews used the Holocaust as a political leverage or not...the topic is One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

And I have yet to see any evidence that supports that. Some say the death toll was 4m, some say 6m, some say they were able to go swimming and enjoy a theatre. How can someone enjoy a show and water polo when they're almost dead from malnutrition?...wtf.

Anyways, I don't understand the position that some people are taking (subz). One member says the Holocaust took place, then someone else comes to the thread and says the prisoners had pools, theatres, it was 4m that died, not 6m, etc...etc...

That's like me saying 2+2=4 and someone coming along saying that it wouldn't be 4 if you add 2 then subract 8 and divide by 2.....lol

So the corps arguement is wether or not the Holocaust took place (which cannot be disproven), not the motives of the Jewish leadership, how many people died or how they may have "taken" Israel.


To all the Holocaust deniers out there....where's your'e evidence that disproves the Holocaust?

[edit on 2/2/2007 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by SportyMB
The thread topic really isn't about if the Jews used the Holocaust as a political leverage or not...the topic is One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

I was going by the video.

I haven't seen it claimed that the holocaust never happened. It seems to claim the number of deaths were exaggerated. That said, I think it's legitimate to try and come to some possible motivation as to WHY the number fudging conspiracy would take place at all, don't you?

It seems like a logical route but maybe I'm wrong.

I disregarded the title since it didn't relate to the source material that inspired it. If anything the title should be altered.

I haven't finished the entire video but no one has said yet that the holocaust didn't occur.

We'll see...

[edit on 2-2-2007 by lee anoma]

Originally posted by Nygdan
The thing is, it DOES matter what the death toll was. If they killed 4 million, then yes, it was horrible, and if the intent was to wipe out the jews in germany, and they 'only' got to 4 million, then its still horrendous.

But it wasn't 4 million. It was around 6 million. It matters, because that WAS how many people were killed.

You are wrong. We do not know whether it was four or six million people that died in concentration camps. Why? Because the Nazi-regime destroyed evidence and many bodies were in a severe state of decomposition, not to speak of the mass graves.

In occupied countries, the Nazi-regime confiscated registers of birth if they hadn't already been destroyed by resistance fighters.

Bottom line: a very precise estimation of the number of people died in concentration camps is really hard to make; the number of people died could have also been 4 million rather than 6 million, or seven million instead of four million.

Originally posted by lee anoma
I was going by the video.

I don't really have the time to watch the video and probably never will. But I understand the point you are trying to stress now, thanks for clearing that up.

Do you believe the Holocaust took place or not?

Thanks,

[edit on 2/2/2007 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by lee anoma
I think it's legitimate to try and come to some possible motivation as to WHY the number fudging conspiracy would take place at all, don't you?

That would first require demonstrating that there was any number fudging.

Saying it was 1/3rd means that it was 2 million jews killed, whereas the counts are actually at around 6 million.


If no one can, minimally, show that "there was a plan to kill the jews, but that it 'only' killed 2 million jews, even though that is horrible and disgusting", then there is no conspiracy to even speculate on the motives about.


Very few people actually deny that some jews died in concentration camps, most holocaust deniers, that I have seen, have said that there wasn't a "Final Solution", and that the death count wasnt' anywhere near 6 million.

Both of those statements are flat out false.

Originally posted by Nygdan
And as far as israel, most jews that oppose it tend to reject it becuase it wasn't seized for them by the promised Messiah. They don't object to having a state...

True, some just object to the process in which it was formed but other object to the state itself. They all oppose it for religious reasons, but then again there were also religious reasons for it being seized too. If it was up to the anti-Zionist Jews it would not have been formed at all so in a sense they do reject the state.

Israel of course should exist and I wouldn't advocate expelling anyone from their home no matter how they came to be there, but even still I was surprised at these Rabbi's claims.

It may be outlandish...however some of them were in the camps so I think they deserve to be heard nonetheless.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Your english is excellent.

Thank you :-)

It makes it even harder for me if you're playing rough.

Fair enough. But if I sound 'rough' its only because I try to be exacting in what I am saying. I don't personally have anything against most of the people on the site.

I guessed so, since you are a moderator.

What I meant with "rough" was that you seemed so fixed on proving that there was a Holocaust. You don't have to. I'm German, I went to a German school in the 90's (which means you watch a lot of Holocaust videos in history classes and get drummed in your head that you have a inherited responsibility to prevent something like that from ever happening again) plus I was a Jehovah's Witness, so I was even more confronted with Third Reich history, evidence, proof and truth about what happened. Believe me: I KNOW it happened. Maybe it's because I was so busy watching the film that I didn't notice that the thread title is a little misleading: "Compelling Evidence It Never Happened" - I thought that refers to the "one third" of 6 Million.

However, lee anoma found the words I was looking for:

Anyone that claims it never happened it a fool. Anyone that claims it could have been exaggerated and manipulated is presenting a conspiracy theory which is what this site is all about.

This is not about "Oh, the Nazis weren't that bad after all and if you look closely, they should even be considered victims of a Jewish/allied forces conspiracy rather than perpetrators of one of the worst crimes in the history of mankind." This is more about "Why do some 'facts' not add up if you look closely at the standard works, their sources and the Nuremberg Trial documents?"

I feel that not being allowed to discuss the Holocaust is like putting the nazis on a taboo shrine, giving them power over our thoughts long after their demise. The nazis didn't come from outer space and said "we're going to commit mass murder, vote for us!" - they were humans, the SS men were humans, most of them are dead and we can't pretend that that era is a dark, secret sanctum - "don't look, don't ask!" We must be allowed to ask questions to understand what happened.

Otherwise, history will repeat itself, and things like Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghuraib "happen" just because they're not as severe as the concentration camps were.

Originally posted by lee anoma
True, some just object to the process in which it was formed

Such as the Chasidim in the photos you linked to. THey, in particular, when they object to israel, are saying that prophecy requires it be freed by the Messiah.

They all oppose it for religious reasons

My point is that an internal religious struggle lends itself torwards dramatic statements. The mere fact that a jewish religious sect objects to israel on grounds of theology hardly matters for the rest of us that aren't jews in the first place.

It may be outlandish...however some of them were in the camps so I think they deserve to be heard nonetheless.

I am definitly not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to speak, or anything like that, to be clear, if it was unclear. My only point is that their arguement, that israel is invalid because it wasn't formed by the messiah, is meaningless to anyone that isn't a jew.