My God Has Forsaken Me

Originally posted by Seapeople
If god loves me so much, then there should be no problems with me asking these questions. There should be no problems with a person trying to learn about his world.

The problem occurs when people of faith attack those who question the things the believe. I never attacked anyone. I dont have a beef. I think someone who says I messed up (what I dont know) and then blamed it on someone (that I myself am not sure exists) is the one with the beef.

You should be accepting of my questions. Others were. Others offered help in finding

If you thought that I was attacking you then I appoligize. I think it's GREAT your asking questions, and seeking answers. Just a word of wisdom...Some questions you MAY ask cannot be answered that some think should be. Eventually we will find answer to everything.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Im not having problems. I am saying that no one who loved their own children would intentionally kill them in such a way as this god did. Jesus once said, "My god, why have you forsaken me?" The title of my thread refers to this. The act of god killing his own child. Not me.

God didn't kill his own child. He didn't intervene and save him...there's a big difference there.

But thanks for clearing up that your title post was in reference to this instead of how I took - your own personal lament. That explains a lot and leaves a bit less confused!

Valhall is telling you the truth,

consider that your soul is all that matters and think less of the body then you will see that god gives you the power to decide what to do with your soul.

think of your time spent in the body as 'basic training' for what is to come afterwards.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Im not having problems. I am saying that no one who loved their own children would intentionally kill them in such a way as this god did. Jesus once said, "My god, why have you forsaken me?" The title of my thread refers to this. The act of god killing his own child. Not me.

Yes He did say this!
But do you know what the meaning behind that is?
quote//Jesus once said, "My god, why have you forsaken me?"

What it means ......quote///even in these moments He is not alone because His Father is always with Him (John 8:29; 10:30). But in order to feel the full weight of the consequences of sin, the Son of God voluntarily allows His human nature to feel the horror of estrangement from God as well. This awful moment will be unbearable for the holy and sinless One. A loud cry will escape Him: My God my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Matt. 27:46). Foreseeing this hour, the holy soul is filled with horror and indignation.

Earlier, when certain Greeks came to see Jesus, He allowed His human nature to experience the approach of this dreadful hour.
When these "sheep from another fold" arrived, the God Man knew that the hour was near when people would come to see Him raised up on the Cross.
His human nature shuddered, His soul was filled with indignation. But Jesus knew that without His sufferings the salvation of men was impossible, without them His life's work on earth would be as fruitless as a grain of wheat that had been lying on the earth until dried out by the sun.
Therefore, He entreated the Father not to allow human weakness to take hold of the thoughts and desires of His human nature: Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour; but for this cause came I unto this hour.
As if heartened by the remembrance of the purpose of His sojourn on earth, Christ prayed for God's will to be done -- for the salvation of mankind: Father, glorify Thy name -- glorify it on the earth, among men.
Show Thyself not only as the Creator, but also as the Saviour (St Basil, "Against Eunomius," Book 4). And the voice from heaven said, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again (John 11:27-28),
thus announcing that the time had come for the fulfillment of God's mystery which hath been hid from the ages (I Col 1:26; Eph. 1:9, 3:9).

more..... www.roca.org...

Originally posted by Seapeople
Im not having problems. I am saying that no one who loved their own children would intentionally kill them in such a way as this god did. Jesus once said, "My god, why have you forsaken me?" The title of my thread refers to this. The act of god killing his own child. Not me.

This is just idiotic. Everyone has to die, even my God had to. But God has the power to ressurrect, a dead person for God is merely sleeping, or would you suppose God would over protect his own child so Satan could win the bet? So his lie would become truth? Won't happen. We sealed our destenies by the Tree, that's how it goes. The reason we all have to die was that humans killed his son. For God gave us the Wisdom, which is the Word and the Light, but the Darkness didn't want it. But just as Light as a concept is eternal, so is Jezjuah. He did die. That's what death is. But for God he was merely sleeping. For God can bring people back to life and he can also kill them a second time, destroying them for good. You don't seem to fear this power one single bit. You mnake fun of it, and use it to scorn the Heavens and those who dwell in them. What makes you so proud? What makes you so self rightious? You are already dead. Repent and you may live.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Seapeople,

Has anyone ever spoken to you of the greatest and last temptation of Christ?

The greatest temptation endured by Christ was that he possessed within himself the authority to envoke the powers of God. Think about that. Through what he endured, as he looked at his own mortal death, he KNEW that he could speak the word and the whole deal would be off. HE had the power to stop his own mortal death.

I think the life, mission and death/resurrection of Christ is so idealized by teachers/preachers and believers that they begin to forget that this man was a MAN. A man that loved his mortal life as much as we do. A man that did not want to give up that life anymore than anyone of us would. And he had within himself the authority to prevent that.

In the garden of Gethsemane Christ prayed that God allow this cup - his own death - pass from him. You can translate the prayer in the following manner: If possible, please don't let this happen, BUT YOUR will be done, not mine.

On the cross, as death approached, Christ had to have battled with saving his own mortal life at such a depth and intensity that none of us can imagine. One word and ten thousand angels to remove him from the suffering. He could have fulfilled his role as the Meshiach right then and there, but he fought the very desire to survive in the face of allowing the saving sacrifice to occur. His statement on the cross was a lament for the life that was passing. That he was sorrowful and wished that God would intervene and save that life does not mean there was anger, or any less voluntary act to him giving himself...just a human cry that he would prefer to live.

When you realize that the authority was within Christ himself to stop his own death, you can no longer put "blame" on the lack of intervention. The power of intervention hung on the cross and died a mortal death. That is the last and greatest temptation of Christ. That is an awesome sacrifice...a true self-sacrifice.

You know of course, that knowing, and believing are two different things.

With that in mind, lets suppose, for the sake of arguement, that Jesus really is the son of God. Ok, so now he KNOWS, not believes, but KNOWS of life beyond death, KNOWS of Heaven's existence, etc. etc. So, is his "sacrifice" really that big of a deal?

It's like this. I'm in a fully fireproof suit. It's so fireproof, I don't even feel the heat. I KNOW that fire can't harm me. I've seen it tested a million times. I stand in an opening, and someone jets fire on me. Is this such a sacrifice? Is this really brave? This is the equivalent of what Jesus did.

The real ones doing the sacrifice are those who just BELIEVE (any religious belief), and don't KNOW that there is an afterlife, God, Heaven, etc.

Originally posted by Gazrok
You know of course, that knowing, and believing are two different things.

With that in mind, lets suppose, for the sake of arguement, that Jesus really is the son of God. Ok, so now he KNOWS, not believes, but KNOWS of life beyond death, KNOWS of Heaven's existence, etc. etc. So, is his "sacrifice" really that big of a deal?

It's like this. I'm in a fully fireproof suit. It's so fireproof, I don't even feel the heat. I KNOW that fire can't harm me. I've seen it tested a million times. I stand in an opening, and someone jets fire on me. Is this such a sacrifice? Is this really brave? This is the equivalent of what Jesus did.

The real ones doing the sacrifice are those who just BELIEVE (any religious belief), and don't KNOW that there is an afterlife, God, Heaven, etc.

Gazrok,

I disagree and herein lies the dangerous, deceptive and misleading nature of "JESUS IS GOD". Jesus even refuted that. Most people who back this "one and the same" doctrine quote Jesus when he says "My father and I are one"...but if you read it in context he in no way is implying they are the same. He is stating that he is whole-heartedly commiting himself to the will of the Father. That Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man in no imbues him with omniscience. He stated himself that the time of the end times was known only to the Father. He couldn't answer the question.

Thansk for bringing this little issue up!

[Edited on 18-12-2003 by Valhall]

There are three things that I have been taught about god. Actually many more, but these three will do for now.

I have been taught that god knows everything. He knows the past, the present, and the future.

I have been taught that god has infinite power. He could destroy the world with his breath, and rebuild it new. He could do anything.

I have been taught that god loves everyone more than I could understand. He loves all life. Infinite love.

When you add these three things together, it poses a serious problem for me. If he knows everything, then he knew what people would do, what an individual would do, long before that person was born. He also infinitely loves this person. A love so great that I could not comprehend. He has infinite power, and creates this soul, puts him on earth.

Then this person did wrong, was a "sinner", and god sends him to hell for ETERNITY.

My question:
Explain to me how this god could have placed this soul in an environment where he KNEW AHEAD OF TIME, the person would be a sinner. He knew ahead of time he would have to send this person to hell. He put him there anyway. He loved him so much that he gave him a death sentence to hell before he was even born to this earth. This person theoretically had no choice in his path through life, because god already knew.

Now, I am questioning the entire basis of religion with this post. I am not attacking anyone. You dont have to get angry by what I am writing. If you dont like the questions, dont read them. Also, I would like to hear some original thoughts. (I know some of you have already given them, so thanks)

Follow up to Gazrok's comments:

I DO believe that Jesus knew that he would conquer death. So I don't want my comments to cause confusion there. He alluded to his return, so he knew of his complete mission. My comments on the last temptation were not in regard to whether he doubted an afterlife, but that he was as human as the rest of us and no more wants to relinquish this "life" than any of us do. Furthermore, I'm almost certain a lot of what he went through hurt REAL bad...another human trait is to avoid pain (well, the normal is to avoid pain anyway).

He KNEW he had the authority because it had been proven to him by the repeated manifestation of God's will through the miracles Jesus performed. Jesus had no doubt that he could physically manifest God's will via miracles, because he had done it repeatedly. So that was knowledge to him, not just a faith-based belief.

Originally posted by Seapeople

Explain to me how this god could have placed this soul in an environment where he KNEW AHEAD OF TIME, the person would be a sinner. He knew ahead of time he would have to send this person to hell. He put him there anyway. He loved him so much that he gave him a death sentence to hell before he was even born to this earth. This person theoretically had no choice in his path through life, because god already knew.

I believe that this is where "free-will" comes into play. Although God might know everything, he gave us a choice to take different paths. You are not necessarily condemned - you have the choice to follow whichever path you want to. The future might be forseeable in God's eyes but this doesn't mean that it is necessarily set into concrete in yours.
I guess you could reply that free-will in itself is a curse but maybe that's where the secrets of man's soul comes into play - maybe free-will is an integral part of that soul.Without free-will we probably wouldn't be men and who knows if we could even exist?

I don't believe God forsakes anyone. He gives them a choice and it's up to each individual to pick the right path.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Side note Gaz....
When you get married, are you and your fiance' having a preacher/priest perform the wedding ceremony?

Actually, marriages here in the States can be performed by anyone who has gone through the trouble to register with the right authorities. Therefore, the Justice of the Peace can marry you (as he did my son and my daughter-in-law.)

In fact, I've conducted legal marriage ceremonies and I'm certianly not a preacher or priest or a JP.

Originally posted by Seapeople
I am saying that no one who loved their own children would intentionally kill them in such a way as this god did. Jesus once said, "My god, why have you forsaken me?" The title of my thread refers to this. The act of god killing his own child. Not me.

I argue apologetics on Christian boards and have seen this and other points brought forward. Basically, you get the kinds of responses you see here -- the agnostics and atheists will discuss it with you and the religious find ways of explaining why it was really the RIGHT thing to do.

The "humans were all mixed blood except for Noah and his family" is one (leaving out the issue of "he had brothers and sisters and why weren't THEY considered pure enough to save?") I had one person say that God drowned the babies as a merciful act because they couldn't have survived without their mothers... and the same applied to the babies in the womb. And he took them all to heaven.

Eventually, you come to the disturbing conclusion that "morals are for men and anything God does is right." It's wrong for abortion/men to sacrifice humans, but when God demands it (the priests of other gods killed and sacrificed on their own altars, the 3,000 little girls of the Amekelites (I think they're the ones) killed and burned as sacrifices to Jehovah, and so on and so forth) it's okay.

Depending on how literalist they are, you also get a deity who creates a universe 6,000 years ago and then turns it into a lie so it looks to be 12 billion years old (or thereabouts.) There's no purpose behind such a deception, but we're told it was done anyway by a loving deity whose plans are beyond us.

God's an arrogant little smartass. He thinks he can rule my life with his nonsense, well he better think again. a lot of his sins aren't even really sins at all. they're just crap. no gambling, no drinking, no going to mediums cuz they're "satan's tools", no having promiscuous sex, or anything of the sort. don't get me wrong. I believe in some morality but god takes the cake sometimes. And just why should we hafta take the punishment supposedly b/c adam and eve ate the apple?? who cares? At least they actually thought for themselves instead of going with God's messed up logic that we all should be slaves to him and obey some of his absurd laws. Satan freed mankind from the harshness of God and allowed him to choose his own destiny. Sure, that may have led to years of wars and tragedy but look at the bright side. at least we've got lots of better advancements and technology and we're smarter and we think more for ourselves, at least i think.

I wouldn't trade that for anything. I'm not about to waste my life away speculating that some God exists when there's no proof of his existence and think that i'm gonna go to heaven if i'm a slave of him rather than just live my life the way i want and be happy. At least I was happy in this life. what's the point of living if ur not happy? I believed in God for 6 months as a christian last year but did it bring me good fortune or make my problems go away or support me?? NO. Did believing in Jesus cause me to turn away from my sins and be totally christlike? no. It didn't help me at all. Believing in God and religion only brings a man misery and sorrow. That's true Hell. hell is not some ethereal underworld where sinners go. It's the state of mind that slaves of God and brainwashed people are. I laugh at God.

Originally posted by jabb

There was a thread not to long ago on Noah's arc. Wondering if it was a true story. I have some issues with this. Noah�s ark is just a story that shows how that particular god loves everyone so much that he covers their world in water to drown them, when in reality they had no choice or guidanance to do anything different then they were doing

Noah and his family, the bible says, were the only family remaining stainless before God and with a pure human bloodline. The rest were contaminated by the angels who fell with Lucifer. They took the women of earth to mate with. This caused humans to become inhuman. This is where giants came from, accordian to scripture. God's intent was to erase this abomination from the earth.




[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by jammerman
Order from chaos...

There never was chaos. There is no such thing as chaos in science. Everything has it's own specific formulas, which can be broken down to completely logical cycles.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Noah and his family, the bible says, were the only family remaining stainless before God and with a pure human bloodline. The rest were contaminated by the angels who fell with Lucifer. They took the women of earth to mate with. This caused humans to become inhuman. This is where giants came from, accordian to scripture. God's intent was to erase this abomination from the earth.

Your story is true except for one common mistake. Lucifer wasn't even invented yet. Lucifer was the Greco-Roman god of the morningstar Venus. Lucifer is the Antichrist or the Pope to be more specific. He will fall when Petrvs Romanov falls and is forced to walk the streets of Rome without the papal crown until the Seven Hilled City is destroyed. He is a lie in himself, for he will be called Peter II, but there has never been a Pope Peter before. Simon bar Jonah Kefas was never pope, allthough they like us to believe this in order to keep their power. That's why they save "the second" 'till last. If he had come earlier, Rome and the papacy would have been destroyed then. Simon bar Jonah Kefas was first among brothers, he wasn't elevated above the other, he spoke first and last. It is Anti-Christian doctrine to call someone father except for the Father we all have in Heaven. But I guess there is forgiveness for such too. God is more than us, we can't understand his rightiousness fully in our human form.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Noah and his family, the bible says, were the only family remaining stainless before God and with a pure human bloodline. The rest were contaminated by the angels who fell with Lucifer. They took the women of earth to mate with. This caused humans to become inhuman. This is where giants came from, accordian to scripture. God's intent was to erase this abomination from the earth.

Your story is true except for one common mistake. Lucifer wasn't even invented yet. Lucifer was the Greco-Roman god of the morningstar Venus. Lucifer is the Antichrist or the Pope to be more specific. He will fall when Petrvs Romanov falls and is forced to walk the streets of Rome without the papal crown until the Seven Hilled City is destroyed. He is a lie in himself, for he will be called Peter II, but there has never been a Pope Peter before. Simon bar Jonah Kefas was never pope, allthough they like us to believe this in order to keep their power. That's why they save "the second" 'till last. If he had come earlier, Rome and the papacy would have been destroyed then. Simon bar Jonah Kefas was first among brothers, he wasn't elevated above the other, he spoke first and last. It is Anti-Christian doctrine to call someone father except for the Father we all have in Heaven. But I guess there is forgiveness for such too. God is more than us, we can't understand his rightiousness fully in our human form.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Mikromarius,
I respectfully disagree, based on the word of God, study and application. I accept the bible as it is. I do not always agree or like everything it says, but that's my problem as a human, to be worked out through faith. You're entitled to your belief and I am not attacking you. (Just so ya know.) Everyone should read it for themselves and ask God to reveal to them the truth.
Peace.

[Edited on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Mikromarius,
I respectfully disagree, based on the word of God, study and application.

Then perhaps you could explain to me exactly where Lucifer is even mentioned in the Bible. As you will see: Not a single place. The Latin Vulgate I think was the first to change Heylel, the Prince of Babylon into Lucifer. Either that or it wasn't until the KJV came around. The name is Heylel, and just like Michael is the Prince of Israel, Heylel was the Prince of Babylon. One of the seven Satans. The first fell in Eden, the second about 1000 years later and so on until our days. Now they all sing in symphony it seems, and the last one is always the trickiest one, for the greatest treason always rest within the bonds of trust. Look to the Vatican, that's where he'll probably show himself in the end. Either there or in the city mall seeding greed and unjust desires into your children dressed in red with a false beard and an even sillier hat than the pope. Guess you've seen him lately.....

To even translate the Tannakh from Hebrew is a great sin and a shameful thing to do, unless you have a language whose words have the exact same meanings and alternate meanings and the same geometry etc. The Bible is a book of codes, a book for kings, religious teachers, scientists and priests which can be read by everyone, though only a few can extract the true messages within it.

Blessings,
Mikromarius