Obama Attended Madrassa, Says Hillary

Originally posted by Damocles
i have issues trying to remember yesterday and people want to crusify him (no pun intended) over a school his father (stepfather) put him into when he was SIX?!?!?

I agree, Damocles. He had no control over where and how he was educated. But there are several other points that are being considered:

1. How much of the voting populace will associate madrassa with terrorism? There is no question that some will; it's just a question of how many.

2. Did the Clinton camp leak this info? Some say yes, others say it is a political dirty trick by the right.

3. Did this particular madrassa embrace Wahabbism?

4. Has Obama been intentionally glossing over this part of his past, or at least not coming clean about it?

5. Some still question whether he ever was a muslim or attended a madrassa to begin with.

To answer these questions, facts must be presented. But as usual on ATS, those that state facts are seen as hardliners and partisans. Then the name calling begins. We've all been there before.

But josbecky... no facts have been stated or presented as yet, just allegations. Allegations about Obama and allegations about the Clinton camp. The very fact that those allegations take a swipe both of them, more than anything suggests a Republican smear.

it brings up a good question, how much do intelligence services to do with elections. we know those guys may have looked completely into the lives of the candidates. do intelligence services bring out news like this also.

what do you guys think

Originally posted by jsobecky
His father and grandfather were muslims. And the son of a muslim is automatically a muslim, I believe.

As far as I can tell, yes, Muslims are encouraged to raise their children as Muslims (as are just about every other religious follower). I found this page that seems to have some insight on the subject (a very interesting piece - I suggest reading the whole thing):

Islam Online - Family

Apparently, Allah at least allows children to question their faith.

"My son has decided Islam is not for him, that he has discovered too many flaws in the faith.”
...
Both parents and children are learning that in the West, the freedom to choose one’s faith is somewhat of a cultural assumption: an assumption that people—all people—are free to choose their religious path.
...
Perhaps this is Allah’s reason for allowing children to question their faith to begin with—to force their parents to question themselves and ultimately acquire a deeper level of knowledge and greater certainty of Islam.
...
One of the challenges of growing up in a particular religious tradition is to be able to come to the light of faith on one’s own. Belief cannot be handed down; it must take root and reside in the heart of each individual.

As to a previous question of yours, Jsobecky, many people leave Islam and survive. They have a big presence on the web.

Apostates of Islam

Some people interpret certain verses of the Quran and believe Islam teaches that apostates of Islam should be killed. Interestingly, there are equally horrid verses in the bible about Apostacy in Christianity.

A question I have is, do you need to be a muslim to attend a madrassa?

No. The word Madrassa means school, whether it's a religious or secular school.

If not, then the questions arises, why would he attend a madrassa?

His mother put him there. At 6, he did what his mother told him to. The one he attended was predominantly Muslim, but taught moderate doctrine, not Wahabbi.

Truthfully, if you would read some of the links I've provided you'd find the answers to your questions.

According to Snopes, Obama's campaign is working on a response to this "Wahibbi Madrassa" claim that may answer even more questions.

If you read the Snopes report, remember that the words in italics are the allegations, most of which are proven false.


[edit on 21-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

I am sure I will get "Land Blasted" for this, but why hesitate now?

"Some" of you on here, be it Hillary, Obama, Giuliani supporter's/non supporter's or who ever, should take a look at the candidate and not cloud your political choices with all the conspiracy playtime you normally subscribe to on a regular basis here.

I mean come on!!! Reading through the posts one sees

(Manchurian Candidate)
(Illegal war for oil)
[Zionist)
(Puppet Masters)
On and on..

These things are fun to talk about, to debate here on ATS and even may have some small amount of factual basis. But do they belong in a serious debate over who is going to be in control of the most powerful nation on the planet?

These things that exist mainly in the minds of those that are fascinated by such things, used to make decisions as impacting as a Presidential Election? WOW


Being a core Conservative and supporter of all things Conservative, I am not happy with the Presidents apparent swing to Liberalism, I am also not thrilled with the concept of Hilary as President. But to contemplate Obama as a serious contender is to play into the Media obsession with Liberalism.
He is at best an inexperienced senator with little or no history that would qualify him for the position. Regardless of his religious make up.

Though again, not thrilled with Hillary, she does appear to be the most experienced candidate running at this moment.

Who are the Republicans going to put up.

Giulian? Liberal Republican
McCain? Wishy Washy at his best

There are some very viable Republicans that are considering running, but they have so little exposure at this time, it is difficult to evaluate their possibilities.

Semper

i don't know what the big deal is i've known Ms Clinton was going to be the prez in 08 for years. I've heard the predictions of a woman prez and i just knew it would be her besides it's the only thing that'll really tick off the extremist they don't even let their woman go to school imagin what they say if the USA has a woman prez. you can tell for sure she going to win because with these "New World Order chumps they always leak the info deny the info then do it. and that's what was done with Ms Clinton "she's going to run" " no i'm not" "she's gonig to run" "no i'm not but i'll look into it" "ok I'm runing"

we live in interesting times my friends

Well we have a term here in the UK. She is attempting to climb the greasy poll


If it is true, it should be a concern to the Americans. Particularly if he's hiding it.

I honestly can't see Obama becoming president. He is intelligent, charismatic fully capable and could well be a great leader. But there is still rightly or wrongly, great mistrust of Islam.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Truthfully, if you would read some of the links I've provided you'd find the answers to your questions.

Hmmm...wasn't it you who was questioning whether Obama was even a muslim?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Where is the information that states Obama was EVER a Muslim?

I woulda thought your links would have answered that...

Originally posted by jsobecky
If not, then the questions arises, why would he attend a madrassa?

His mother put him there. At 6, he did what his mother told him to. The one he attended was predominantly Muslim, but taught moderate doctrine, not Wahabbi.

....but if you find a link that states why his mother sent him to a madrassa, then please post it. Thanks.

Originally posted by semperfortis
"Some" of you on here, be it Hillary, Obama, Giuliani supporter's/non supporter's or who ever, should take a look at the candidate and not cloud your political choices with all the conspiracy playtime you normally subscribe to on a regular basis here.

I'd like to point out that just because we're having a discussion about the issues around this subject doesn't mean we're not looking at the candidate. Why make this assumption?

(Manchurian Candidate)
(Illegal war for oil)
[Zionist)
(Puppet Masters)
On and on..

Are we not allowed to have our opinions on the current state of the political world? It seems you have no problem voicing your own opinion 'clouded' with your political judgment...

Originally posted by semperfortis
Media obsession
Liberalism
Liberal Republican
Wishy Washy

What's the difference between voicing your political opinions and us voicing ours?

But do they belong in a serious debate over who is going to be in control of the most powerful nation on the planet?

If we care to discuss them, then yes, they do belong here.

Though again, not thrilled with Hillary, she does appear to be the most experienced candidate running at this moment.

Yeah, you probably would prefer her to all other options at this point because she's no different than Bush or any number of other conservative Republicans.

Some of us are looking for something new. Something different. We need a hero. And I'm not saying Obama is it. In fact, I have withdrawn my support from him for now, but I will discuss him, his past and his bid for presidency and I'll use the phrases I like, whether you like them or not.

Now I haven't lambasted you, but I will if you like.

Nicely done!!!

No, you can hold off on the Land Blasting for now. HAHAHAHAH

But one question?

Why is my opinion clouded and yours and others not?

What is it about me that causes my opinions to be clouded? Because they are mine or because they differ from yours?

Semper

Originally posted by jsobecky
Hmmm...wasn't it you who was questioning whether Obama was even a muslim?

Yes. I can find nothing that states he was ever a Muslim. So I'm asking. I'm not sure of your point.

I woulda thought your links would have answered that...

Nothing I can find states that he was. They don't state that he was a Catholic, a protestant, a Bhuddist or Hindu, either, nor do they state he wasn't. They don't state that he's ever been anything but a Christian, which he adopted as an adult. I'm asking for confirmation that he's ever been a Muslim.

Originally posted by jsobecky
....but if you find a link that states why his mother sent him to a madrassa, then please post it. Thanks.

I did. But I cannot make you read it. From the Snopes site:

[My mother's] initial efforts centered on education. Without the money to send me to the International School, where most of Djakarta's foreign children went, she had arranged from the moment of our arrival to supplement my Indonesian schooling with lessons from a U.S. correspondence course.
...
In his 2006 book, The Audacity of Hope, Obama elaborated on his early schooling, explaining that he attended both Catholic and Muslim schools in Indonesia — not out of any particular religious affiliation, but because his mother wanted him to obtain the best education possible under the circumstances...

He attended Catholic and Muslim schools, but no one is taking this as proof that he's a Catholic or was EVER a Catholic. See my point?

Edited because my hands are freezing and I can't type right!

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Why is my opinion clouded and yours and others not?

I was quoting you! That's why I used single quotes around 'clouded'.

Originally posted by semperfortis
not cloud your political choices

We all walk under our own clouds.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Nothing I can find states that he was. They don't state that he was a Catholic, a protestant, a Bhuddist or Hindu, either, nor do they state he wasn't. They don't state that he's ever been anything but a Christian, which he adopted as an adult. I'm asking for confirmation that he's ever been a Muslim.

That most likely means that you haven't found the correct links yet. You haven't found any where he denies ever having been a muslim, have you?

Whatever. It isn't that important to me.

Edited because my hands are freezing and I can't type right!

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

See? That's what happens when you disagree.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
He attended Catholic and Muslim schools, but no one is taking this as proof that he's a Catholic or was EVER a Catholic.

To be considered a Catholic there is a religious ceremony that must be performed. There are witness' and a paper trail. According to the Catholic church - once Catholic always Catholic - no matter what religion you may later choose in life. You will be considered a 'lapsed catholic' if you go elsewhere.

Obama had no such religious ceremony. He was never Catholic.

- What is the defining moment that a person is considered a muslim?
- IS there a defining moment, like in the Catholic Church?
- I have read that the Muslim religion considers you 'forever muslim' if you become Muslim. is this true? Even if you leave, muslims will still consider you a muslim even if you don't consider yourself one.

Anyone know the answers to three questions? I don't.

Originally posted by jsobecky
That most likely means that you haven't found the correct links yet. You haven't found any where he denies ever having been a muslim, have you?

David Axelrod, Obama's strategist, said Obama was not raised muslim or went to a madrassa. Posted on page 2.

I have yet to see anything directly from Obama, so maybe it's rather complicated...

[edit on 21-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
David Axelrod, Obama's strategist, said Obama was not raised muslim or went to a madrassa.

I think Obama's strategist should have read Obama's book - he definately went to a muslim school.

Dreams Of My Father (p.142), Obama writes:

In Indonesia, I’d spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I’d pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended.

NOTE - Obama says 2 years in a muslim school. The articles coming out now say 4 years in a madrassa. There is a 2 year difference and the language is different. I have no idea if the politician is telling the truth, or if the news has gotten the truth ... or if both are telling lies ... or what ...


[edit on 1/21/2007 by FlyersFan]

Why is any of this even passingly important? The man was a child and the vast majority of Madrassa's both overseas and here, simply provide an elementray school education with a religious element no different than similar catholic or protestant schools.

Is it because the man is running for president?
Is it because he is a Democrat?
Is it because one of his parents was a Muslim?
Is it because it is he is black?
OR is it all of the above?

The only real concern should be does the man have the qualifications for the job he is applying for.

Everything else smacks of bigotry for either his background or race.


[edit on 21-1-2007 by grover]

[edit on 21-1-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
Why is any of this even passingly important?

Yeah well, that's politics for you and people love mud slinging. I would even say most folks vote based on their emotions, rather than on facts.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's” ~ Mark Twain

Originally posted by jsobecky
You haven't found any where he denies ever having been a muslim, have you?

No, I haven't. But I don't deny being a 20-year-old black man either. That doesn't mean I am one.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No, I haven't. But I don't deny being a 20-year-old black man either. That doesn't mean I am one.

Question is, if the Washington Times published that you studied at a Massadra while your applying for a job at a jewish owned Bank, would you deny it?

Some would say your silence is consent, and you would probably not get the job.