Does Israel belong to the Jews or the Muslim

Originally posted by Terapin
Politically, the occupied territories do not belong to Israel, yet they treat it as though it does. Such self justification is a shameful way to live. The Geneva Convention and basic human rights means nothing to Israel. Shame on them.

The problem exactly...society.

We must be a level -33 society in the universe. We depend on governments to shepherd us, or we would do worse damage than what we already do with the wars that we create.

no one needs to claim anything, own anything, etc.
From taking land from the Indians and slaying them, and now fearing that terrorist will do the same...to fighting in the desert over some rock sticking out of the ground.

Do kids really ever grow up? Mature?
Can I get a ticket off this planet to some place more civilized.

Seriously, I feel Im in kindergarten.
This is mine, my God said this, etc, etc. No one sees how funny all of this really is.

Its like a funny dream of silly people running around, always angry at each other...never happy, never enough, always afraid, and always "right".

Hmmm, guess enough people enjoy this way of life...kind of like a neuron-network, hard to break out of the comfortable loop we are in. Lets just stay in the swamp awhile longer dear, its not that bad hear after all...

Peace to all and to the world...but since no one wants it, Ill take it myself.

dAlen

dAlen you're simplifying the conflict in the wrong direction. The meaning of Israel to the Jews is "Never Again."

לאולם לא שוב לתמיד ולנצח

Originally posted by verfed
dAlen you're simplifying the conflict in the wrong direction. The meaning of Israel to the Jews is "Never Again."

לאולם לא שוב לתמיד ולנצח

I think I know where you are coming from, and this link would be in responce to that.
Not to offend, you or anyone with the link.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

In the end, it should all be simple.(Cause, as the link above shows, its way to complex) Someone has to start somewhere.

Peace

dAlen

Verfed, you say that possession is the final answer as to who owns the land. On a purely hypothetical consideration, if I was to somehow magically remove every Jewish person from Israel and transport them against their will, to, oh say... Switzerland, would you then fight to get the land in the mid east back? Given that I would now possess the land and could give it to someone else who would then possess it, would you fight to get it back?

I assume that you would indeed fight to get it back, and there for, the Arabic families who owned the property until it was illegally taken from them, also have the same reason as you claim, to fight for their land. There is one difference in that they have legal claim to the land. The world does not recognize the occupied territories as a legal part of Israel.

The sad truth is that Israel is the worlds biggest welfare state. Israel could not exist if it was not for massive outside financial support. If that financial support ended tomorrow, how long do you think Israel could continue to oppress its Arab population?

Originally posted by Terapin
Verfed, you say that possession is the final answer as to who owns the land. On a purely hypothetical consideration, if I was to somehow magically remove every Jewish person from Israel and transport them against their will, to, oh say... Switzerland, would you then fight to get the land in the mid east back? Given that I would now possess the land and could give it to someone else who would then possess it, would you fight to get it back?

I assume that you would indeed fight to get it back, and there for, the Arabic families who owned the property until it was illegally taken from them, also have the same reason as you claim, to fight for their land. There is one difference in that they have legal claim to the land. The world does not recognize the occupied territories as a legal part of Israel.

The sad truth is that Israel is the worlds biggest welfare state. Israel could not exist if it was not for massive outside financial support. If that financial support ended tomorrow, how long do you think Israel could continue to oppress its Arab population?

People steal land all the time.
Forget the Indians, lets look at modern day.

Communism took land from my wifes realatives here in Hungary.
Now they gave some back. (Yes, the same communist now call themselves something different...god, and no one sees the game, it funny.)

land stealing...its all people do...power.

You know there is plenty of land for everyone to have their own place to rest their butt.
Seriously. Now, people might not like their piece, but there is way more than enough.
Its all about power, and the silly game.

If we want to play silly games we can be politically correct and not say "Jewish People" but "Israelis". Point is, everything is relative...not set in stone...even the most ancient of tradtion.

Chaos is God and we are that God! (we just cant stand to see ourselves in the mirror.)

Peace

dAlen

dAlen those rabbis are against Zionism for religious reasons. They say the Messiah should be the one to set up the New Israel not the people.

Originally posted by verfed
dAlen those rabbis are against Zionism for religious reasons. They say the Messiah should be the one to set up the New Israel not the people.

true, but you said, "it should never happen again."
Thought you referred to the holocaust.

That link points to the zionist using the holocaust to create the state of Israel.

Peace

dAlen

Hatikva was written in 1892 and The Jewish State was written in 1896. Zionism didn't start because of the Holocaust.

Originally posted by verfed
Hatikva was written in 1892 and The Jewish State was written in 1896. Zionism didn't start because of the Holocaust.

sorry, wasnt saying that.

Please refer to the link.

The link quotes a rabbi who basically is blaming zionism for the holocaust...kind of rough.

Peace

dAlen

Israel belongs to neither jews or muslims. Actually, Israel belongs to the Rothschilds, as does the entire zionist movement, they even got the Rothschild symbol on the flag, the "star of David" as its called, really the star of Rothschild. Go check it out.

They fomented the Holocaust, which is a yiddish term which means "burnt offering" or "burnt sacrifice". You better go check out why your jewish leaders chose that word to label the massacre. They fomented the Holocaust specifically to get the State of Israel in place. The jewish people were nothing but fodder, pawns which were sacrificed on the alter of world government, to get the zionist state of Israel into place.

Israel actually is a derision from 3 egyptian and phoenician gods, ISIS, RA, and EL. IS-RA-EL. ISIS was the wife or Horus, the son God, RA, was another word for Horus, and of course EL, was the phoenician God of the sun. Israel is nothing more than a symbolic word for the sun, which is what the secret society networks who control the world and who funded the fomentation of the State of Israel, these people are heavely into egyptian and other ancient symbols, you can see it everywhere you go.

Its time to learn the truth. The have been dividing the people against one another, and playing them off in manipulated wars. They give the muslims shiia and sunni groups, they give christians protestant and catholics, and make them fight against each other. GOD ALLAH BUDDHA WHATEVER, ITS THE SAME GOD, WE KNOW THIS, IT IS NOT US WHO IS DOING ALL THE WRONG, IT IS OUR CORRUPT LEADERS MAKING IT SEEM LIKE ITS OUR FAULT.

"Oh the human race is so troublesome, they are so hard to control, our jobs are so difficult, oh what are we gonna do? We have to bring peace to the world, because the human race are a bunch of evil lunatics who have to be controlled or else we would just destroy each other." This is NONSENSE!!!

Its the opposite! We humans are good. Its time to stop falling for their divide and rule tactics, and start looking at FACTS. FACTS. FACTS.

The fact of the matter is, they divide the land masses of Earth into different "countries" to play the nationalism card to further play off people against each other. DIVIDE AND RULE. WE MUST REALIZE, WE MUST STOP PLAYING THEIR GAME, AND THEN THEIR WONT BE NO GAME.

Face the damn facts, its about time for people to start seeing how it is. OH, THE GOVERNMENT WOULD DO THAT! THEY ARE OUR PROTECTORS, THEY WOULDNT WANT TO HURT US! Umm excuse me, its 2007 for christ sakes! If you cant see the corruption of your crooked government by now, after all the examples they can, they even tell you exactly what theyre doing, its just you dont know where to look, hell you dont know you have something to look at!

The game is over. We won. The human race is too good and we are gonna beat these bastards. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. So take a stand, for god sakes, to something right, and fight back against the tyranny.

Most people think if they are not locked up behind bars somewhere, they are somehow free. NO! YOU ARE NOT FREE! LOOK AROUND YOU, DO YOU SEE FREEDOM? NO YOU SEE SMILING DEPRESSANTS! WHO THINK THEYRE FREE, BUT YET ARE SO TOTALLY CONTROLLED, AND IN THE EGGSHELL OF PROGRAMMED REALITY. And one of the mass programmers of human reality is the hypnotism box in the corner of every living room, the TV!

THIS IS TRUTH! WAKE UP AND TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY!

[edit on 20-1-2007 by LightWorker13]

Once again a religious reason. They believe God punished the Jews because of Zionism.

Originally posted by LightWorker13
THIS IS TRUTH! WAKE UP AND TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY!

[edit on 20-1-2007 by LightWorker13]

What a long post, but good.

People dont want to wake up.
Move to Hungary, I feel like I moved into the 17th century with the way people think here.
(For the sake of being nice, I will say it is my experience in the east part of Hungary, other places might be different west of Budapest. But I digress.)

Israel is an interesting thing...not all will agree with your theory, and Im not sure anyone has solid proof to prove anything specifically. (Though it is interesting to read)

I agree that people would benefit by waking up and not caring about all the silly stuff that they fight so hard for. But on the other hand, we would be bored if we could not have drama.

Life is a stage and I am but an actor. My role will end, but the play will go on.
(Well, my role will continue, I am Lord dAlen )

Peace

dAlen

- sorry its late, my posting style is shifting...

Originally posted by DalairTheGreat
me an some friends had a discussion about it. an we cant come to a conclusion to who the country should belong to.

because both jews an muslims have religious structures in the country an both claim they should own it, with the we were here first an so on.... the jews have the west wall which is suppose to be whats left of the kindom that was once there an the muslims have the Dome of rock which it suppose to be where allah ascended to heaven an back.

The difficulty is that both are right.

1. On the one hand, the Jews say "where can we go, if not to our own land?" They certainly belong nowhere else, and scattering them among other races has produced anti-semitism and pogroms, since they rarely could own land and so were forced into trade or to act as money-lenders, and so were seen as (and sometimes were) exploiters. The Jewish population of Palestine has been small sometimes -- as indeed has the total population -- but it has always existed. Where else does the Jewish nation belong?

2. On the other hand the Arabs (many of them Christian) say, "We live here. Our fathers have lived here for centuries. Most of these Jews are from other places and haven't lived here for centuries. Why should we lose our homes to immigrants?"

The Arab case is not as strong as the Jewish one, not least because there are many, many Arab states in the Near East, all of which regularly claim to be essentially one state (and even blame long vanished European diplomats that they were not left as one -- as if they couldn't reunite if they wanted!). Other bogus arguments might be:

The Moslems of course build "holy places" wherever they seek to claim anything, even if it means destroying genuine Moslem sites to do so. It is hard to see that they have any rights because of this.

If they argue that they conquered the land, then by the same argument Israel has the rights so long as they have the power.

If they argue that they were here before the state of Israel, likewise the Jews can point out that they were here before Islam. It is worth bearing in mind that Palestine in 1914 was close to deserted, so destructive had the Turkish rule been.

But the basic points above are both reasonable. Both sides have some right here, morally.

In my humble opinion, anyway.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

the jews didnt create zionism, bankers did.

Why the hell would god punish somebody, do you people even think? He gave us free will, and he also gave us karma, which we create, to balance whatever our free will does. Do you not know, God does not intervene. Havent you noticed that yet?

We created the problem, we reap the consequences, we are gonna fix it. God is not gonna come down and fix this, and we shouldnt have the ignorance to ask him to. Its time to grow up.

Part of growing up is to stop pointing the blame at everybody, and start taking responsibility for your actions. You americans have not done this, not at all. You people in Israel, if you were really so damn good and brave, why not do something about your government? NO! YOU DONT! YOU JUST SIT THERE, AND BELIEVE THE CRAP THEY SPOONFEED YOU! You people are not brave at all!

America, the land of the free, home of the brave? HA! HA! HA!!! WHAT A LAUGH! How can someone in their right mind believe such nonsense. You are not free, and not brave! You are cowards and ignorants, controlled dumbly by your governments, so what are you gonna do about it?

If you take offense to this, Good. Do something about it. Go out there and preach. Change things, do what you think is right, but for god sakes, do something! Learn the truth.

America can be anything it wants to be, why does it choose to be an outlaw? Why does it chose to be a murderer, and a war mongerer, and a thief? WHY? ANSWER ME THIS, ALL YOU SO CALLED "PATRIOTIC" AMERICANS!

But no, you wont. You wont touch this with a ten foot clown pole. Because you KNOW you wont be able to touch it, because I am telling the truth. People are afraid of truth, they cant handle the truth, theyd rather hide behind their confort zone, their little image, their little beliefs, their little veils of ignorance. Ignorance is not bliss, it is dangerous, because there are people working right now, to take away your freedom, and you dont do anything about it. How pathetic.

If i sound harsh, i apologize. Im fed up with the #, people need to start waking up. They tried to destroy my family, but we fought them and we won. I know first hand what Im taking about, these people are all corrupt! They dont give a damn about us, they never have. They revel in your misery, and revel in your depression. Dont believe me? Why else would things be the way they are? Answer that.

If the government didnt want it here, it wouldnt be here, simple as that. face the facts America.

Originally posted by verfed
Once again a religious reason. They believe God punished the Jews because of Zionism.

I think we are crossing each other. For the sake of understanding, I will post here what is in the link:

1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:

a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and

b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and

c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:

a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.

b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.

c) No ransom will be paid

4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

6. IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"

9. IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

Your point is well taken.
Yes they do believe they were punished for zionism...also they are pointing to the evils of zionism.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by LightWorker13
Why the hell would god punish somebody, do you people even think?

Why indeed.
God is awful quiet...about a lot of things.

I have had no reason to believe that a being "god" even exist.
Sure we as humans kill at the drop of a hat cause God gave us land.

Then let God be big enough, pun intended, to step up and speak for itself for once.

I will tell you why it doesnt.

God is like in Greek mythology. Silent. Pontus, the original "Sea God" was one of the weakest of the sea Gods. In Fact Posideon, had nothing to do with the sea, not to the extent in the geneology tree of the gods that Pontus did, yet he was powerful.

Called evolution. The whole thing of Cronus castrating Uranus and taking over, then Zeus over Cronus...as we evolve the new throws out the old.

Or in a "Jewish Sense", God is Ayn Sof...you cant know it, and it is all. If you call the manifistation God it is idolotry as one aspect is not all of God. (unless you go into the hologram theory that one piece has all the parts of the pic in it, anyway, its late and my post are starting to show.)

Peace

dAlen

The land belongs to the current day Lebanese, who were the ancient Canaanites that were massacred, in order to form ancient Israel. The Biblical Israel was much larger than today's Israel, and included territories in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and part of Egypt.

The land was promised to Abraham's offspring (Ismael and Isaac) for refuge from oppression, and slavery. From Isaac's lineage came Moses and Jesus, resulting in the creation of Judaism (race and religion) and Christianity (religion). From Ismael's lineage, Muhammad was born, and came Islam (religion). The problem with determining who the people of the "promised land" are is due to a common misunderstanding that it's a person's religion that determines if they're the "chosen ones." In reality, it was the Jewish (by race, not religion) people who claimed Israel, because they were direct descendants of Isaac. Current day Israel holds very little Jews who are Jew by race. More than 80% aren't even Jewish by race, and yet they make claim to the land.

As I stated earlier, the land was meant to be a refuge for Abraham's lineage from slavery and oppression, and for that reason, it's why the Israeli government portrays to all Jews (by religion) that everyone in the world hates them and that the only safe place in the world for them is Israel. This form of propoganda has not worked successfully because many Jews of the world do not live in Israel, and some oppose its existence, because it contradicts the Torah's teaching that the Jewish faith cannot be converted to a physical entity.

As for the Dome of the Rock, as mentioned by other users. It's the rock where Muhammad died and ascended to Heaven on a golden ladder, with the help of angel Gabriel. When I visited the Dome (in Summer 2004), it was made off limits by the Israeli government to all Muslims. It was later found that the reason for this is because the Israeli government had secretly been sending archaeologists to dig under the dome.

So who does this land belong to now? No one but the people who were there first, even before the Jews (race) - the Lebanese. Since there is little to no slavery and opposition left in the world that is forced upon Abraham's lineage, the land is not needed any longer and has served it's purpose.

Originally posted by DJMessiahSo who does this land belong to now? No one but the people who were there first, even before the Jews (race) - the Lebanese. Since there is little to no slavery and opposition left in the world that is forced upon Abraham's lineage, the land is not needed any longer and has served it's purpose.

DJMessiah,
While I can appreciate the angle that you coming from on this, I would like to point out that this seems to be the root issue.

That is, who owns what. Who owned it before the lebanese? Who owned it before Neanderthal man...the list goes on.

What if you did this to America? The Indians owned America. (well they are either mostly dead, or so mixed, that no one is left to reclaim anything.)

In fact, to a certain extent, the Indians didnt own anything...and thats the point isnt it?
Use what you need?

Eckhart Tolle said that when the white man came their faces looked like they were "crazy", "missing something" (I believe he was relating what some Indian said.)

And indeed so...why is there this inherent thing in "white man" to want to "control".
Control is fear based.

Anyway...I will rest for now.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by LightWorker13
Why the hell would god punish somebody, do you people even think?

Why indeed.
God is awful quiet...about a lot of things.

I have had no reason to believe that a being "god" even exist.
Sure we as humans kill at the drop of a hat cause God gave us land.

Then let God be big enough, pun intended, to step up and speak for itself for once.

I will tell you why it doesnt.

God is like in Greek mythology. Silent. Pontus, the original "Sea God" was one of the weakest of the sea Gods. In Fact Posideon, had nothing to do with the sea, not to the extent in the geneology tree of the gods that Pontus did, yet he was powerful.

Called evolution. The whole thing of Cronus castrating Uranus and taking over, then Zeus over Cronus...as we evolve the new throws out the old.

Or in a "Jewish Sense", God is Ayn Sof...you cant know it, and it is all. If you call the manifistation God it is idolotry as one aspect is not all of God. (unless you go into the hologram theory that one piece has all the parts of the pic in it, anyway, its late and my post are starting to show.)

Peace

dAlen

ok well, explain me this then...what machine can create a tree? What man can make an ant, or a apple? Take a look at something so simple as a leaf, and see the intelligence behind it.

There is no god? Mythology? That makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by LightWorker13
ok well, explain me this then...what machine can create a tree? What man can make an ant, or a apple? Take a look at something so simple as a leaf, and see the intelligence behind it.

random occurences that came after abiogenesis created that
also, your techonology points are trivial
just because we can't do something yet, doesn't mean we won't ever be able to do it

There is no god? Mythology? That makes no sense at all.

how about this
what is the mechanism by which intelligence designs?