New Hampshire man, Ed Brown, refuses to pay federal taxes - willing to fight for it.

He's hardly original and he's hardly the hero you make him out to be. There are thousands of these tax protesters around and have been for years. He's hardly the only one to lock himself inside the house and scream "COME AND GET ME!!!" Eventually the protestor has to come out (needs medicine, groceries, etc, etc) and he's generally arrested offsite. Law officers usually aren't interested in wasting much time sitting around his compound for months.

There were a few exceptions to that, but these were generally very heavily armed people who had also shot at neighbors and done other things to make themselves a high profile nuisance.

Their basic argument is "Any law that I don't like that wasn't written into the Constitution is illegal!" So many of them dont' have drivers' licenses (and have lots and lots of traffic tickets), don't pay attention to dumping laws and any other rule that was made that "hinders their freedom" like driving within the speed limit, owning armament (not guns... military armament.)

There are lots of laws that aren't in the Constitution that have been modified throughout the years -- including the right of women to vote and the rights of minorities to vote. Under their rules, they COULD (but aren't) show up at polling stations and demand that women not be permitted to enter because this wasn't in the original Constitution and everything since the original is an adulteration.

I think the perfect solution is for them to get out of America, quit using the services that my taxes are paying for, and move to a micronation like Redonda or Sealand.

Here's a summary of arguments that have been tried and why they failed miserably.
www.quatloos.com...

And, as Quatloos points out, it's amusing that the people who sell "How to legally not pay taxes!" products almost always pay income taxes themselves. Hmm. (insert wry humorous tone) What do you suppose these vendors know that the purchasers of their products don't know? (/end wry humorous tone)
www.quatloos.com...


[edit on 20-1-2007 by Byrd]

While I don't agree with this guy 100%, it seems that recently all our federal tax dollars are good for is going into a till so the rich who have the power to get their people elected can dip their slimy hands into it whenever they want, similar to the mob ran casinos of old.

I respect the guy for his stand, but in the end it's futile and certainly not worth losing his life over.

Peace

you know, the whole "show me the law" line is BS

it's in the constitution
amendment XVI

Originally posted by Byrd
He's hardly original and he's hardly the hero you make him out to be. There are thousands of these tax protesters around and have been for years. He's hardly the only one to lock himself inside the house and scream "COME AND GET ME!!!" Eventually the protestor has to come out (needs medicine, groceries, etc, etc) and he's generally arrested offsite. Law officers usually aren't interested in wasting much time sitting around his compound for months.

There were a few exceptions to that, but these were generally very heavily armed people who had also shot at neighbors and done other things to make themselves a high profile nuisance.

Their basic argument is "Any law that I don't like that wasn't written into the Constitution is illegal!" So many of them dont' have drivers' licenses (and have lots and lots of traffic tickets), don't pay attention to dumping laws and any other rule that was made that "hinders their freedom" like driving within the speed limit, owning armament (not guns... military armament.)

There are lots of laws that aren't in the Constitution that have been modified throughout the years -- including the right of women to vote and the rights of minorities to vote. Under their rules, they COULD (but aren't) show up at polling stations and demand that women not be permitted to enter because this wasn't in the original Constitution and everything since the original is an adulteration.

I think the perfect solution is for them to get out of America, quit using the services that my taxes are paying for, and move to a micronation like Redonda or Sealand.

Here's a summary of arguments that have been tried and why they failed miserably.
www.quatloos.com...

And, as Quatloos points out, it's amusing that the people who sell "How to legally not pay taxes!" products almost always pay income taxes themselves. Hmm. (insert wry humorous tone) What do you suppose these vendors know that the purchasers of their products don't know? (/end wry humorous tone)
www.quatloos.com...


[edit on 20-1-2007 by Byrd]

You do know the 2nd Amendment is supposed to allow you to own "military armaments" right?

Ed Brown never said because the law wasnt written into the Constitution it is illegal. He said it contradicted Article 1 - 8 of the Constitution. The only powers of taxation granted to the Congress in the "original" constitution was the power to pay a direct tax or excise equally apportioned among the census. Then the 16th Amendment was barely ratified which also gave the power to collect an income tax. This was in response to our debt after and during WWII.

This is also around the same time the Federal Reserve was created. If you study the Federal Reserve you will find it is owned by private individuals that make MASSIVE amounts of money off of our "income tax". These people print money out of nothing and loan it to us. Then they charge us interest on it.

ITS A SHAM.

Maybe by the letter of the law Ed Brown is wrong, but that doesnt actually make his idea wrong.. It just makes him a better person for not supporting a corrupted system.


[edit on 20-1-2007 by ImplementOfWar]

[edit on 20-1-2007 by ImplementOfWar]

A good movie that producer Aaron Russo made and released this past year is called "America Freedom to Fascism" and it covers the income tax debate. He stated that he set out to prove once and for all by making a documentary that paying income tax is a law and everyone is required to pay. What he ended up finding out is quite a disturbing story. The movie is available on DVD and was posted for free on youtube at one time.

The scary part is all of the other things that he uncovered along the way. There is a very important legal battle going on right now that is not being covered in the media. Just do a Google search on We the People Foundation to find out all of the details. The case is in the Supreme Court's hands right now. The interesting thing is that the IRS has been handed a few set backs in this case by the higher courts so it is shaping up to be a very interesting case.

I know everyone has their opinions on this issue and that is outstanding. Just keep in mind that united we stand and divided we fall. Also, if anyone is interested, I can tell and show you why this country is so splintered on so many fronts.

Peace be with you.

How did this Former IRS Agent win his case in federal court?

www.wnd.com...

www.freedomabovefortune.com...

America: Freedom to Fascism

Heres a free authorized link from video google. Full video.

Very interesting stuff

As I read this thread, it makes me wonder why nuts are heralded as role models whether it be Bush, Osama or Ed Brown. I guess if your a criminal, then your good to go in the age of insanity.




Ed's not anything new and the mental wards, prisons and graveyards are full of them....





[edit on 20-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
I guess if your a criminal, then your good to go in the age of insanity.

And I guess if you're a citizen who has done some research on the FED, its scam, and is prepared to argue ideals, as well as fight for them, your name is Ed Brown. May Ed's soul prey on the consciousness of America.

Ed's not anything new and the prison is full of them....

And complacency in the face of tyranny is not anything new either, for America is full of those, too. You illustrate it quite well, allbeit from behind a keyboard, and not in a jail cell- or a barracaded house.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
And complacency in the face of tyranny is not anything new either, for America is full of those, too. You illustrate it quite well, allbeit from behind a keyboard, and not in a jail cell- or a barracaded house.

Being a felon fugative has little to do with not being complacent to tyranny and more to do with being a suicidal bonehead, who should of done his homework better. He wins nothing by grabbing a gun and saying, "Bring it on ya gooskter spooksters, cause iza redeye to do some shootinz!"

I know how to work the system well enough and I didn't need to get on the FBI, ATF, IRS, or DEA's craplists in order to become financially independent.

Remember the Waco...

[edit on 20-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
He wins nothing by grabbing a gun and saying, "Bring it on ya gooskter spooksters, cause iza redeye to do some shootinz!"

Other than the hearts and minds of every American sick of being robbed essentially, and having $2 billion a WEEK of their money spent in an illegal war in Iraq, bursting with fat profiteers, no, you're right. He wins nothing.

Think about what our founding fathers did by drafting and delivering the Declaration of Independence. High Treason I believe is what it is called. Was it for the right reasons? I believe so, at some point some one has to take a stand.

I saw an analogy once regarding our elections and the strange fact that we are only given two choices, either Dem or Rep. I'm not interested in anyone's political affiliation I don't have one personally. I am an American not a shill.

It's like We the People are in a video game and there are two spoiled, childish children each wanting their turn at shooting the blips on the screen and manipulating factors to see what happens. The crazy thing is that We choose whose turn it is to shoot us, manipulate us etc.

Logic demands that we ask why? why does the media only provide air time to the two major parties?

Do we not elect one or the other each time? Has anything gotten better? I do not believe that anyone from the two major parties have advanced our society at all. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

After doing some research I believe that I have found the answer to why we as a society seem to have lost our senses. Here is a quote from one such piece of research...

"Richard Bandler, John Grinder and others were successful in finally analyzing and modelling Erickson's techniques. They devised what they called "neuro-linguistic programming," also known as NLP, which is based primarily on Erickson's techniques. With NLP it is relatively easy to hypnotize a person and to keep that person in a trance state without their being aware that they are in fact in a trance. The technique of pacing and leading a subject from a rich or varied set of thoughts to a limited or impoverished set of thoughts is a technique used consciously by hypnotists, advertisers, sales people, preachers and politicians.

Many stage hypnotists use Ericksonian or NLP derived hypnotic techniques in order to induce trance. TV hypnotists on daytime television can induce a trance after only a few minutes of seemingly innocuous talk. During this time, the subject can be given post-hypnotic suggestions to alter behavior and perception in peculiar ways during the TV show.

Television advertisers and the designers of commercials are aware of the techniques of Bandler and Grinder and use them often in commercials. The trance-induction potential of television media is well-known and is often used for manipulating consumer tastes. However useful television is for commercial and social control reasons, it cannot be reasonably argued that promoting an impoverished reality is, in the end, really socially beneficial."

Originally posted by Realtruth
How about this decision then?

Nada. If you read the case thoroughly you will find again that this decision did not call into question the validity of the 16th amendment nor the right of the Feds to lay and collect federal income taxes. From your own link:

A jury in the U.S. District Court in Sacramento found him not guilty on a charge of conspiracy to defraud the government and on all three counts of aiding and assisting the filing of false tax returns for a client.
Banister's attorney, Robert Bernhoft, told WorldNetDaily the result has no direct bearing on the legitimacy of the 16th Amendment, but he insisted the implications are bigger than the issue of taxes.

"The outcome shows that average, law-abiding, hard-working citizens are not going to criminalize speech -- they're not going to send a man to prison for asking the federal government serious questions about a serious subject," he said.

Last fall, IRS spokesman Anthony Burke insisted Banister's arguments against the federal income tax already had been thoroughly vetted.
"Many constitutional or legal arguments have been tried in the courts, and without fail, they have been held to be without merit," he told WND.

So what does that mean – the jury basically said Banister has the right to free speech, even if that speech results in other people failing to file tax returns or pay income taxes. At no point in this case was the issue of whether the 16th amendment was ratified correctly NOR did the jury say that income taxes were illegal. In all honesty what you have here is a man who is selling BAD advice to average Joe Shmos like you and I. These people are then convicted of failing to file returns and taxes, sometimes with jail times imposed while he skates off with their money free and clear.

Banister is well-known in the tax protester movement for his statements that the tax laws are unenforceable. The charges relate to so-called "protest returns" filed by Banister's clients, which dispute whether any tax is owed. Banister himself was not charged with failure to file taxes (probably because he did), and the government failed to prove that his conduct knowingly assisted his clients in filing false tax returns. Although Banister was acquitted, one of his clients, Walter Thompson, was convicted of tax violations in an earlier trial and is serving a six-year term of imprisonment. With the tax protester movement, acquittals or convictions are not always the benchmark.

I despise men like Banister because they say one thing to their clients and do another. There was something called the “pilot connection” or some such nonsense about 15 years ago who inspite of telling all their clients that they didn’t have to pay taxes, Pilot paid their own. They prey on people who believe we have no representation despite the fact that we are so overtaxed in this country and get them to break the law instead of through activism through the political process. I’m telling you – we need more Libertarians in this country if we ever hope to see real and effective change in the federal tax system.

Originally posted by Regenmacher
I know how to work the system well enough and I didn't need to get on the FBI, ATF, IRS, or DEA's craplists in order to become financially independent.

Remember the Waco...

First off Regen,

Thats your word that you ARE financially independent, not that THAT has any real bearing on this topic....

Secondly,

How very UNAmerican of you to spout off about how financially "INDEPENDENT" you are in the first place...Americanism was founded on brotherhood and a common cause NOT the selfish "gimme gimme gimme for ME" attitude that you display so eloquently here.


Thirdly,

You know how to work the system?? lmao... whats that supposed to mean and why should that be meaningful to either the topic at hand here, OR to anyone who considers themselves to be a REAL American with the REAL American spirit?


AB1

[edit on 20-1-2007 by alphabetaone]

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Other than the hearts and minds of every American sick of being robbed essentially, and having $2 billion a WEEK of their money spent in an illegal war in Iraq, bursting with fat profiteers, no, you're right. He wins nothing.

Changing the system for the betterment of humanity requires a person to stay out of prison or the grave. Ed Brown isn't going to change the system with his methods. He would of been better off opening a tax-exempt food bank, if he was concerned about helping folks.


So what did this recent tax evader change, besides destroying all of his personal freedom?

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Changing the system for the betterment of humanity requires a person to stay out of prison or the grave.

Maybe you should print that out, and take it down and read it over the graves of our forefathers. Don't be too surprised if they come back to life, and physically escort you over the border.

Originally posted by alphabetaone
Americanism was founded on brotherhood and a common cause NOT the selfish "gimme gimme gimme for ME" attitude that you display so eloquently here.

Well considering you have no idea what my philanthropy work includes or that I probably waste and spend less than a person making minimum wage..I say that I displayed nothing of the sort and you spew total fiction.

Real Americans free themselves! They do not remain a slaves and complain about freedom, they don't expect others do to it for them, they don't break laws and cheat like crooks and felons, and they get off their asses and work 3 jobs if they have too. They stay within the bounds of the law in a nation built on laws, they help others and leave more behind than they take.

www.smfb.org...

O ok, so if you want to be free you work 3 jobs? Regen usually Im a big fan of what you have to say, but Im very disappointed this time around. When the government ignores its people and decides it doesn't have to show you laws anymore, words aren't going to change the fact you aren't being represented.

Violence should only be used when all other means have failed. The day is drawing when all other means have failed. Ive read about the Income tax and such. Its illegal.

Ive read the supreme court cases, and the IRC. IRS lists income tax as a direct tax. Thats not consititutionally legal.

Regenmacher you tell me this, why is the definition of income different in the United States then the rest of the world? In the rest of the world Income means profits...but in the US its some obscure meaning which is not only vague but is not even readily defined. Why is that?

What is income, and if its more then just profit, why is the definition different then the rest of the worlds definition?

When I get a paycheck for physical labor, thats not profit, thats an exchange. I exchange my time and efforts for X amount of money. That is not legally taxable by the constitution as it stands now. Thats not income, so how are they taxing it?

I support this guy as well. I have an interview of Aaron russo about this subject on myspace.com/cajunffText Red

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Maybe you should print that out, and take it down and read it over the graves of our forefathers. Don't be too surprised if they come back to life, and physically escort you over the border.

Jefferson tells me he didn't go to prison, or die foolishly and the system he helped build is already set up and capable of making changes.

Now if you think storming the capital with pistol is better, go for it. I have yet to see that work, so prove me wrong.