The minimum wage conspiracy

Originally posted by RRconservative

If you offered someone $2.50 an hour and they were dumb enough to take it, I don't see the problem with that. You get what you pay for! I'm sure if you saw my Bush sticker on my car, you wouldn't have hired me anyway!

That my friend is also your right as a businessman!

So what if EVERYONE thought that way. Then it has nothing to do with the 'stupidity' of the poor dope trying to find a job, but with the unethical 'goudging' of payment by businesses. It wouldn't matter how well someone does the work, you'd still pay them sh*t. And because every company did the same, they'd have NOWHERE to turn, and then they'd HAVE to work there, because there's nothing better. That's what's happening w/ MM right now. WTF is the point of that?

If you enjoy this, you'd be happy to live in medieval europe as a lord exploiting your workers.
You don't belong in America.

I completely agree with Mirthfull Me in regards to increasing the minimum wage will do nothing to help the people that earn the minimum wage because it will cause inflation to shoot up and therefore do nothing for the people that earn a sub standard living.

I wonder if a maximum wage shouldent be inforced? I know I know yea right there is no way that bill gates or any of the other richest people on earth would support getting by on 100k a year but if you think about it. Keep the minimum wage were it is but cap the maximum wage and you would suddenly see us down near the bottom feel a lot better.

course that is also so close to comunism that no one would go for it either.

So how would one decrease inflation? make a buck go much further thain it does now?

Originally posted by whatukno.

I wonder if a maximum wage shouldent be inforced? I know I know yea right there is no way that bill gates or any of the other richest people on earth would support getting by on 100k a year but if you think about it. Keep the minimum wage were it is but cap the maximum wage and you would suddenly see us down near the bottom feel a lot better.

Bill Gates gets a wage? CEOs get wages? I alway thought they got stock options and salaries. I never knew they worked by the hour.

Originally posted by whaaa
Bill Gates gets a wage? CEOs get wages? I alway thought they got stock options and salaries. I never knew they worked by the hour.

Sorry how bout a national salary cap?

posted by whatukno

I agree in regards to increasing the minimum wage will do nothing to help the people that earn the minimum wage . . “ [Edited by Don W]

This is hard for me to grasp. By the 8 hour day, I think I’d appreciate having my wage rise from today’s $41.20, to $58.00, albeit takes 2 years to reach. It’s really strange to me how anyone would think this not a good thing for anyone who makes the minimum wage.

. . because it will cause inflation to shoot up and therefore do nothing for the people that earn a sub standard living.

Inflation runs about 2-3% a year according to the BLS. Over 2 years, the $5.15 is to be increased by $2.10, a 40.7% rise. It seems that should more than off-set the 2-3% per year, inflationary increase? Wouldn’t you think?

I wonder if a maximum wage shouldn’t be enforced?

The top tax bracket was 91% during the World War 2. That tended to keep peoples thoughts on matters other than how to make another buck. That patriotic rate was reduced to 70% under JFK. Then to 50% under Jimmy Carter. I’d recommend returning to the 91% rate.

So how would one decrease inflation? Make a buck go much further than it does now?

To those people who don’t have much money, inflation is a real killer. Inflation at the level of the poor - anyone who spends 100% of income to live is poor - means more to them than it does to a guy making in the mid six figures. Every canned good item in the store goes up 10 cents every 9 months. When I moved to Jax in ‘03, Post Shredded Wheat was $3.29 a box. Today it is $3.79. Ivory dishwashing liquid was $1.89, today it is $2.69. Viva paper towels were $1.59, today they are $1.89. Arm & Hammer Liquid Laundry Soap was $2.99, today it is $4.29. So the BLS says inflation is 2-3% a year? Yeah, when you add in a Lexus SUV and a 2,000 square feet vacation home.

But when hamburger is $3.29 a pound, you have to buy a half pound instead of a full pound. That is what minimum wage means. To the rich or even the near-rich, “inflation” just means the cost of money. Cheaper, more plentiful money means inflation. More costly, less readily available money means deflation. Current economic thinking is “inflation good deflation bad.” And I tend to agree. Provided productivity rises at a faster rate. Inflation running ahead of productivity is called “runaway inflation.” Very undesirable.

One advantage of controlled inflations is the fact the national debt never has to be repaid. Instead, it is “monetized.” Which means inflation over 30 years equals the principal amount, so that you have effectively, eliminated the debt. Monetized the debt. But in the shorter tem, less than 30 years, paying down the debt can be very wise. As in the upcoming Baby Boomer SS shortfall. But, alas, Bush43 is determined to revamp SS, and this is his fall-back position. Incur so much debt it will cost a fortune to borrow for the SS shortfall. Wreck the economy! That’ll show’em!


[edit on 1/13/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
To those people who don’t have much money, inflation is a real killer. Inflation at the level of the poor - spends 100% of income to live - means more to them than it does to a guy making in the mid six figures. Every canned good item in the store goes up 10 cents every 9 months. When I moved to Jax in ‘03, Post Shredded Wheat was $3.29 a box. Today it is $3.79. Ivory dishwashing liquid was $1.89, today it is $2.69. Viva paper towels were $1.59, today they are $1.89. Arm & Hammer Liquid Laundry Soap was $2.99, today it is $4.29. So the BLS says inflation is 2-3% a year? Yeah, when you add in a Lexus SUV and a 2,000 square feet vacation home.

But when hamburger is $3.29 a pound, you have to buy a half pound instead of a full pound. That is what minimum wage means. To the rich or even the near-rich, “inflation” just means the cost of money. Cheaper, more plentiful money means inflation. More costly, less readily available money means deflation. Current economic thinking is “inflation good deflation bad.” And I tend to agree. Provided productivity rises at a faster rate. Inflation running ahead of productivity is called “runaway inflation.” Very undesirable.

One advantage of controlled inflations is the fact the national debt never has to be repaid. Instead, it is “monetized.” Which means inflation over 30 years equals the principal amount, so that you have effectively, eliminated the debt. Monetized the debt. But in the shorter tem, less than 30 years, paying down the debt can be very wise. As in the upcoming Baby Boomer SS shortfall. But, alas, Bush43 is determined to revamp SS, and this is his fall-back position. Incur so much debt it will cost a fortune to borrow for the SS shortfall. Wreck the economy! That’ll show’em!


[edit on 1/13/2007 by donwhite]

The point of my posting is perhaps the fact that people like you and I have such a hard time getting by these days is not the fact that we make so little it is because the rich make so much.

Everything costs so much because of inflation. If people didnt have the money to spend on things then supply would outgrow demand and prices would fall.

I think the national debt is a big bunch of bogus BS. There is a huge vault of gold that has no effect on the monitary system in this country. In fact I have no clue what the gold in ft knox is being held for but I do know that in one fell swoop the nationa debt could be completely eliminated by paying our creditors with the gold in that vault.

And nope it wouldent cause the economy to collapse because we arn't on the gold standard.

posted by whatukno

(1) The point of my posting is the fact that people like you and me have such a hard time getting by is not that we make so little it is because the rich make so much. (2) Everything costs so much because of inflation. (3) If people didnt have the money to spend on things then supply would outgrow demand and prices would fall. [Edited by Don W]

1) Yes. The rich can bid up the price of anything they want. Here in FL I have met people who shop a lot, and never know what an item they want costs. It goes on their Gold Card and they pay the bill without a close examination. We are moving into a dual economy. Up-scale and the rest of us. Perhaps one day we’ll have our revenge. Recall the 1789 French Resolution? If a person was caught wearing lace, his head was cut off. It’s hard, but sometimes it is “pay back” time.
2) Since 1933, and John Maynard Keynes, economists in the West have agreed that moderate inflation is the perfect incentive for the good life. Don’t look for that to change. We’ll have to get used to it.
3) Not more than 10% of the working people are minimum wage types. Too small a group to have much clout. They can’t make donations to their Congressperson, so he or she doesn’t care a hoot in a hollow for them. It doubtful if most of them vote, and if they did, they’d probably split along the general population lines, which is 50/50, nullifying their ballot box potential. The poor do not have the resources to withhold their buying long enough to make any dent in America’s consumerism. Sorry, but I cannot offer you any hope.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne

Originally posted by RRconservative

If you offered someone $2.50 an hour and they were dumb enough to take it, I don't see the problem with that. You get what you pay for! I'm sure if you saw my Bush sticker on my car, you wouldn't have hired me anyway!

That my friend is also your right as a businessman!

So what if EVERYONE thought that way. Then it has nothing to do with the 'stupidity' of the poor dope trying to find a job, but with the unethical 'goudging' of payment by businesses. It wouldn't matter how well someone does the work, you'd still pay them sh*t. And because every company did the same, they'd have NOWHERE to turn, and then they'd HAVE to work there, because there's nothing better. That's what's happening w/ MM right now. WTF is the point of that?

If you enjoy this, you'd be happy to live in medieval europe as a lord exploiting your workers.

You don't belong in America.

This is exactly why there is a minmum wage law. Poeple have to have food, shelter, transportation, etc. . . Unscrupulous bastards have always tried to exploit the poor.

It seems Harry Reid's Senate killed Nancy Pelosi's House bill to raise the minimum wage.

It lost by a 54-43 vote in the Senate!

A stand alone minimum wage increase will not happen. There has to be tax cuts for small businesses or even a repeal of the death tax, which was presented in the last congress.

Congrats to Republicans and moderate Democrats for not caving!

I think the other thing to think about is that the unemployment rate in this country is extremely low, like 4% or something I think? What this means is most people don't have to "settle" for a job. Companies have to compete to get employees. They do not need falsly created, arbitrary hourly rate mandates to do that. Most employers are not big evil corporations, they are small to midsized businesses. These small "mom and pop" places are hit the hardest by these arbitrary federal wage laws.

The effect of promoting the hiring of illegal workers also can't be discounted. When you force the min wage higher via law, it makes hiring illegals that much more attractive.

Lastly, the idea of "cost of living" is extremely variant in the US. $10 can buy you a lot more in a small town in the midwest than it can in NY city or San Francisco. Having a catch-all federal min wage does not take into account the extreme diversity in buying power depending on where you live.

I can almost be convinced that states MAYBE should be allowed to create min wage laws for their individual states but there should never be a federal law.

People arent supposed to live off of minimum wage. The average time a person makes minimum wage is less than a year. I thought the mighty Fed taking over education was supposed to ensure every citizen had that opportunity to break free from a situation like having 3 kids out of wedlock before the age of 19 and consequently dropping out f school. How does raising the minimum wage help those people?

They were interviewing people on the local news about the increase and a woman actually complained that if they raise the minimum wage she'll make too much money to qualify for her housing allowance and would have to move to a better apartment. WHATS THAT ABOUT!?!?

There is absolutely no reason anyone in this country HAS to be homeless, broke or living on minimum wage. The great majority of these cases are due to bad choices or a complete lack of motivation.

Or, if the government does have this magic power to handout money why not raise the minimum to $20/hour? Surely more money is better, right?

This is another reason I support state secession. Let there be welfare states and let there be free states. Just dont make one pay for the other and dont force everyone to live by the same rules. With that thought I dont recall hordes of people flocking to the Soviet Union for all the great things they had to offer. Actually, the exact opposite seemed to happen quite often.

The unemployment rate is artificially low anyway. If you're unemployed but not in certain systems, you will not be counted.

Arizona raises Minimum Wage and teens get laid off.

Good article!

www.azcentral.com...

Nice comments at the end of the article too!

My buddy makes minimum wage. The place he works at is raising their new hire wages to 7.50 to be a 'trend-setter' if you will. He will now be making ~$200/every other week more. This has allowed him to work 1 day less and start school, he needs 1 year to finish. This also allowed him to pay off $500 in credit card debt that was only going to grow before. This has also allowed him to buy a new clothing item for his 5-yr old each week so he isn't poked fun of at school for wearing shoddy clothes.

This has helped him, and the company he works for has raised the prices on all items 5%. Works out the about 10 cents on most things.

If you think it doesn't help alot of people you're just simple and wrong.

I would like to hear from all NON-BUSINESS owners about this subject, and people who are not making minimum wage. The only people that do not have a conflict of interest in it.

A single person cannot live on the minimum wage. That is why everyone has multiple jobs and some are even moonlighting on the interntet when they get home from their second or third job.

A federally mandated minimum wage would be unnecessary in a world where employers paid a living wage to their employees.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
People arent supposed to live off of minimum wage. The average time a person makes minimum wage is less than a year.

This is totally inaccurate. Some people work for minimum wage their entire lives because they are trapped by the economy and must work multiple jobs to have shelter,medicine, food and car insurance.

Let me ask all of you this. Assume you all own a business, whether small or large. You are all business owners. Where do the employee's have a right to tell you how to run your business? Last time I checked, they don't let the INMATES run the ASYLUM!! No is owed a job, IT IS NOT A RIGHT GAURENTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION. It is, a contract between an emploter and an employee. If you are not making what you feel you are worth, LOOK FOR A NEW JOB.

You are only as good as your skills. If you are valuable to the business, then you will be paid. If it is not what you feel you should receive...LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB!! If you were that important, the business will fail if you leave. BUT EMPLOYEE'S HAVE NO RIGHT, TO TELL THE BUSINESS OWNER WHAT TO DO! If you are not happy LEAVE!!

NOW,
We have the Govt. coming in promoting a minimum wage...WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION IS THIS POWER STATED?!?! NO WHERE!!!! The free market needs to rule. If the free market doesn't make the business work, then it wasn't ment to be. And hopefully the owner will learn from his mistakes.

Those making the minimum wage should be...
1) High school kids in their first job
2) Retiree's or people with a 2nd job.

If you are trying to raise a family on minimum wage......
1) SOMEWHERE YOU FAILED IN LIFE.
2) YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE CHILDREN.

The minimum wage along with UNIONS should be ABOLISHED! 50 years ago unions where needed to make working conditions safer. In todays age of the INTERNET and instant access to the media, there is no need for that. Not to mention OSHA Laws.

Along with the Govt. and Minimum wage. Add UNIONS. Where does the CONSTITUTION say anything about either of these groups or ANYONE for that fact, telling an employer how to run his/her business!!!! Now all employers should be open to suggestions from their employee's (They are the ones who know the day to day workings), there is nothing in the CONSTITUTION that gives employee's a right to control the business. Any good business owner, will listen to employee input. They do not have to act on it, but will listen.

NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION, DOES IT SAY THAT THEY HAVE TO LISTEN AND FOLLOW THROUGH!!

Let me explain my postition. My first job was a UNION job. All the union did was take dues every week from my check. I couldn't advance, because it wasn't in the contract. I left that job for a job with no union. First let me say I got a large raise with the new job. I floated around for a while, but once I got my act together, and performed in this job...I WAS REWARDED!!!

I will still admit to this day that the union job had better benefits, I make more money than I could have ever made at the union job. And the difference I have to pay in benefits, is small changed compared. I don't know about you....but I'd rather get a raise of thousands of dollars a year, than the $.25, $.35, or even $1.00 raise through the union. What I pay for benefits, is far more made up in my salary. If I stayed in the union job,, I'd be making 10-12 thousand less than I make now.

Look at the big 3 auto makers in the US. Gm, Ford, and Chrystler. They are laying off thousands of people to stay in business. WHY? UNION CONTRACTS. And sad to say, even when laid off, these workers go into a job bank, and receive the same pay. That is why these companies are going done the sh*tter!!! Toyota is looking to become the #1 auto maker in the US...WHY?!?! They don't have unions.

With the UNION mentallity, these members are more willing to let the big 3 go under, than change to face the reality of the 21st century. So tell me?, who do these unions help? Obviously not the workers....but themselves. If these companies go under, who is going to be blamed? THE AUTOMAKERS! Not the UNIONS...they are GODS! But it is the UNIONS who are causing them to go under.

Which comes back to the minimum wage. Again by outside groups, with the automakers the unions, with small business it is the Govt. and Minimum wage. Small businesses are going to be forced to LAYOFF people, to conform to the new minimum wage.

Who wins in this, the UNION fat cats who have their salary tied to the minimum wage. The contract workers are not going to get adjustments on the increase of the minimum wage. No sane business owner would go for this. They employee losses, but the union gains. Example...(Under a union contract an exceptional employee can not be compensated, because it violates the contract. More than likely the business will lose this employee. Why should this employee, who works his/her ass off make X$, while some who does nothing make the same? WHY? Because of a union contract.

If I'm busting my ass making minimum wage, and someone else is doing nothing, why would I stay at this job? The UNION contract says I can't get a raise until X DATE, when everyone else gets one.

If the minimum wage is such a big deal, why not raise it to $20 or $30 dollars an hour? This way families can survive off the minimum wage. The simple answer...THERE WOULD BE 1 OR 2 JOBS, OR THE BUSINESS WOULD CLOSE!!!! The FREE MARKET,, states you will be paid what you are worth. If you are not making what you think you are worth, YOU ARE FREE TO LOOK ELSEWHERE!

If you are not willing to advance yourself....Then you should expect to be paid accordingly. If you can show that you excel in your job, you should be rewarded. THIS IS NOT GAURENTEED, IT IS NOT A RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION If you feel you are being held back...MOve on!!

All businesses are looking for the next best employee. Prove that to one, you get the job. If you can't prove that, then accept your are nothing more than a "Minimum Wage" worker.

BUT!!!!
No employer OWES you anything! You work for them. If you do not perform to their expectations, THAT IS YOUR FAULT!!!

2 choices......
1) Accept that and live that way.
2) Find a way to better yourself, and prove them wrong.

BUT IT IS NOT THEIR JOB TO BETTER YOURSELF!!! IT IS UP TO YOU!!!!

Hey Y'all,

This is my first Post to ATS, and I have a little problem with being brain damaged as a result of a head injury. I'll learn how to properly handle quotes and the such as soon as I can, but I feel so strongly about some of the subjects in this thread I couldn't resist posting now.

CSrules wrote: " NOW,
We have the Govt. coming in promoting a minimum wage...WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION IS THIS POWER STATED?!?! NO WHERE!!!!"

CSrules, I am afraid you are entirely wrong wrong about this. The constitution gives the federal government the the authority to regulate to regulate interstate commerce, and unlike some areas where this authority has been stretched to a point where no rational person can find any real world relation to actual interstate commerce the minimum wage very clearly falls within this the realm of this clause. Please let me explain.
Very great disparities in wage rates historically existed between some states and others. This was particularly true of the abysmally low wages paid in the deep South following The War of Northern Aggression. By the early years of the Great Depression the textile mills and other manfacturing facilities which had formed the economic backbone of New England had been exported from New England and imported to the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, etc. in vast numbers. Early in the Deprezssion some northern mill owners told told their employees that if they wouldn't work for the low wages paid in Alabama then he would close the mill, and move it to Alabama. Some workers saw their wages drop by 75% between one day and the next. Oppressive labor practices were being exported from the southern states and imported to the northern states.
The best way and possibly even the only way to regulate this destructive interstate commerce was to establish a federal minimum wage. It worked remarkably well for this purpose as well as providing untold other benifits.

Csrules also wrote: "Let me ask all of you this. Assume you all own a business, whether small or large. You are all business owners. Where do the employee's have a right to tell you how to run your business? Last time I checked, they don't let the INMATES run the ASYLUM!! No is owed a job, IT IS NOT A RIGHT GAURENTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION. It is, a contract between an emploter and an employee. If you are not making what you feel you are worth, LOOK FOR A NEW JOB."

CSrules, your scorn for workers is truly dismaying. Perhaps the business(es) you own is an asylum. Most are not. Employees are not inmates. Did you inherit your business or did you build it yourself? Your defecatory attitude is one I associcate with those who inherit wealth. If you built your business by yourself then you have no experience with employees and I question your qualifications to render such extreme opinions of employees. If you did not build your business by yourself perhaps it would be wise to consider that employees helped you build the business to get you where you are today , and show a bit of respect.

RRconxservative wrote: "If you offered someone $2.50 an hour and they were dumb enough to take it, I don't see the problem with that."

I do see a problem with that. I have a highly unusual perspective on dumb. Please let me explain. I was a remarkably smart man up until March 1989. My career included, among other things, serving as an expert witness in numerous cases in federal courts. As my favorite hobby I designed and built high end loud speaker systems, etc. I first diagnosed myself as being mildly affected by bipolar disorder in 1974, but it was never anything but a blessing. For 15 straight years I was almost always hypomanic. My day began at 6:00 AM ended at 1:00 AM and I was suffused wioth energy, enthusiasm aenthusiasm and productivity all day. In 1989 I sustain two serious head injurious within a three week period. In both cases I was struck from behind without warning. It was not my fault. I was leftpermanently brain damaged. My bipolar disorder went off the charts. One highly unusual result of this is that is that my intelligence goes up and down with my quite severe and very rapid mood swings despite the fact that I take copious quantities of psychotropic drugs.
I feel fairly bright now. At other times I am very literally dumb. Once when I was part of a group helping a good friend clear his tornado ravaged yard I stood on a limb with my chain saw about ten feet up a tree and sawed that limb off between me and the trunk of a tree. That is incredibly dumb. I wasn't seriously hurt. I take it good naturedly when friends call me Wiley Coyote. If you can't laugh about brain damage then you are in real trouble. Knowing personally what it is like to have a very low IQ and being able to at times to consider this when fairly bright I can say without any equivocation that I have respect for dumb people who keep on trying and working. I despise those who wouled prey on dumb people.

Minimum wage is SUPPOST to be a entry level job for people who are just starting out. Not the wage they get for the rest of their lives.
The only way this will change is if the people refuse to accept it.
Stand up and be counted

Hey Y'all,

Please note that I attempted to edit my earlier post to this thread to eliminate the many glaring typos, redundacies, etc. When I did so only a portion of my post appeared to be edited with the paragraphs which most needed editing being absent altogether. I decided to just leave it as is for now.

I'll try very diligently to learn the system as quickly as possible, but I admit I'm a bit slow.

Tell Your Mama I Said Hi,
Sailghoti