Mexicans Getting Social Security, WTF!

Bottom Line, It's not a Law, Yet

the senior citizen advocacy group TREA Senior Citizens League
909 N. Washington Street #300 Alexandria, VA ph: 800-333-8725
www.tscl.org...

has secured a document titled:
"U.S.-Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement", signed in 2004, but not enacted into law yet!
see on the sites homepage link...a 6MB PDF file

some Key Words: could allow...Mexican workers, to eventually collect...etc etc etc


The USA presently has 21 similar agreements with countries all over the world
and those similar agreements have been long since passed into law !

this Mexican agreement has some legal-ese juggling of 'non-wage Social Security Numbers'
& regular 'wage-credited Social Security Numbers'....

now any system is a target for abuse by creative manipulators, intent on larceny..
..but that's a given in a system with 100's of millions involved & invested in the program.
(recall the ongoing 'food-stamps' program as a plum for the picking,
by the unscrupulous)

posted by rdang

“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword . . Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men - filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism.”

Winston Churchill 1899

I do not like the sound of this "quote." I do not mean for one second that I doubt your credibility Mr Rdang, but I do mean I doubt your source. It is my memory from history that Sir Winston was a young reporter in 1899, for a London newspaper I suppose, who went or was sent down to South Africa to cover the Boer War. There were actually 2 Boer Wars. The Boer’s were the Dutch settlers of what was to become the British colony of South Africa.

The English forced the Dutch out of some areas and their subsequent journey across the country is called “The Great Trek.” Churchill was captured once but managed to either escape or was freed by his captors. There were no Muslims (to speak of) in South Africa in the 1899 time frame. It seems incongruent to me that Churchill would have had occasion to make that remark.

Relevance. What if the quote is accurate and correct? Judaism was founded on the sword. Jehovah instructed Joshua to commit genocide in the Israelite conquest of the Land of Canaan. Or at least ethnic cleansing. Israel under the Sharon Olmert Government is doing a re-run in slow motion on the Arabs who live in Gaza and the Occupied Territories.

A series of Catholic Popes organized, blessed and sent forth at least 4 Crusades in the Middle Ages to take Jerusalem from its inhabitants. Those well-blessed soldiers of God committed gratuitous savagery, murder and mayhem all along the route and murdered in spades when they got there. For all this cruel and vicious work the Popes gave the Crusaders absolution and a passport to Heaven.

Fast forward: Christians drove the trains and turned on the gas at Auschwitz and etc in War 2. I say all this to ask of what usefulness is it to assign liability-responsibility-culpability to the 1.2 billion Muslims in 2006, for what happened in the 700s? The English law’s Court of Equity forbids one to make accusations against another who does not himself have “clean hands.”

We as citizens of the world need to move on to issues that matter and not to willfully blind, bind and burden ourselves to the past.

PS. I have avoided until now mentioning the European Christians’s lethal treatment of the native inhabitants of the New World beginning with Columbus.


[edit on 1/8/2007 by donwhite]

I found the quote on the internet,no I did'nt check it out,but it does sound like him.Maybe in his river wars. There has always been a "radical Islam" and it seems to me that this is what it addresses. I sure at one time or another every religion did it's share of cleansing,how many are doing it now. More importantly,the quote is entirely true. I realize some may find the truth hateful,but it's still is the truth.

Originally posted by mecheng
And now Bush has the gall to give my hard earned money to Mexican illegals... people who came into my country illegally.

Again, if you pay taxes, then you are going to be entitled to get social security. Illegal Aliens use false documents to blend in with society, they use fraudulent paperwork so that they can appear, to the system, as citizens.

If they are successful in appearing as citizens, then they are going to pay taxes and get social security.

This has nothing to do with hysteria over Bush.

This has nothing to do withn a congressman saying 'lets give illegals social security'.

The only way to prevent illegals who pay taxes from getting social security is to identify and verify who is a citizen and who is a fraud using falsified paperwork.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Again, if you pay taxes, then you are going to be entitled to get social security.

I don't have links right now but I believe nearly every "expert" says the system will go broke by the time I retire (20 years). So even though I may be "entitled" does not mean I'll receive anything. By making illegal immigrants eligible only speeds up that timeline of the system going bankrupt.

Illegal Aliens use false documents to blend in with society, they use fraudulent paperwork so that they can appear, to the system, as citizens.

If they are successful in appearing as citizens, then they are going to pay taxes...

First, that's an assumption. I'm sure illegal immigrants are just lining up ar the IRS table just thrilled to pay their taxes. I believe the opposite. I believe most of them get paid under the table and never contribute a dime in taxes.

This has nothing to do with hysteria over Bush.

Sure it does. It's his bill. But to address your point I believe it has more to do with the AU (American Union) that seems to be getting pushed behind the scenes.

The only way to prevent illegals who pay taxes from getting social security is to identify and verify who is a citizen and who is a fraud using falsified paperwork.

First, they SHOULDN"T BE HERE! They entered ILLEGALLY and took jobs from American citizens. They "deserve" nothing but a ticket back. When they enter LEGALLY then I have no problems what so ever in giving them everything this great country has to offer.

Second, again, you have no way of knowing that they are paying their taxes (income) so there is no way to know if they deserve anything. Lastly I pay into social security seperate from my taxes. The two aren't intertwined.

posted by rdang

I found the quote on the internet . . it does sound like him. There has always been a "radical Islam" and it seems to me that this is what it addresses.[Edited by Don W]

Thanks for you kind response. 40 odd years ago, I read Churchill’s History of the English Speaking People and his History of World War 2. I do not claim to remember either. What I read helped me formulate my world view. Churchill was an “empire” man to his end. Certainly England has much to be proud of from 1700 to 1945. Canada gained its impendence on July 1, 1867, without a shot being fired in anger. Canada is a self-governing dominion; by its own choice. I cannot report that I have ever heard the phrase “radical Islam" in use in popular parlance before the Nine Eleven Event.

I sure at one time or another every religion did it's share of cleansing, how many are doing it now[?].

Hmm? This may be my first of few experiences with a pejorative question. Heretofore disdain was expressed in a declarative sentence. Congratulations!

More importantly, the quote is entirely true. I realize some may find the truth hateful, but it's still is the truth.

I’m curious how it can be said the statement is true? Islam is not monolithic. The Shia are subdivided into several groups. The Sunni are likewise. The Wahabbi is one faction of Sunni we have heard a lot about but nothing good. Shia is somewhat like to Islam like Catholicism is to Christianity. Shia believe in saints. Shia believe in the value of self inflicted injury - flagellation. Shia have a hierarchy. Ayatollahs are at the top, sort of like bishops. The Supreme Ayatollah might be likened to a Muslim Pope.

Sunni OTOH, are to Islam like Protestants are to Christianity. People of the Book. Mullahs are the leaders of Sunni Islam. Anyone who completes the studies - well, any Muslim male - can be a mullah. Sunni do not believe in saints. And etc.

The numerical division of Islam is given at 80% Sunni and 20% Shia. Down an dirty but close enough for government work. It is inappropriate to say “Radical Islam” when you are referring to people who are First, terrorists, and Second, Muslims. It is equal to calling Judaism Radical Judaism because the IDF killed unarmed civilians in Gaza or destroyed the infrastructure of Southern Lebanon while on a month-long rampage.


[edit on 1/8/2007 by donwhite]

This is getting way off subject,but let me break it down for you.
“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword", a true statement:Muhammad established himself as religious, political, and military leader. Cities were "converted" under threat of war or by conquest.In 630, eight years after he had been forced to leave Mekkah, Muhammad returned with such an overwhelming force that the Mekkans made no resistance. "Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism”.:Jihad=reward.The radicals are indeed"filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism”. Now I'm done with this,get back on subject.

Who are the real racists? This says it very well. Funny how those who scream racism the loudest are the ones who are the most guilty. Another wonderful by product of open borders is this.I'll say it again,no other country on earth allows this to happen.None. Yet it is stuffed down our throats every day. The elected scum is allowing this to happen,they are encouraging it to happen. The criminal companies who profit from it,care only about themselves and their friends. The Democratic congress has the ability to stop it,will they? of course not.Special interest dictates that. The Mexican Gov encourages their "least productive" to invade the US.Why? Because it does not want to care for them,so send them north,let the gringos do it. You don't see Lawers,Dr's,engineers,coming over,this is Mexicos problem.Mexico should be educating these people,not sending them north.Mexico should be providing jobs,not the US. Why does Mexico's problems belong to the US? Wake up.

Originally posted by rdang
Who are the real racists? This says it very well. Funny how those who scream racism the loudest are the ones who are the most guilty.

Racism extends across all ethnic and socio-economic groups. Nothing new here. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that your posts on this thread tend to contain a racist slant. And please don't accuse me of playing a race card. I'm not. Your posts are what they are.

Originally posted by rdang
The elected scum is allowing this to happen, they are encouraging it to happen.

Did you vote? If so, good for you. If not, quit whinning. We may not always agree with our elected representatives, but at the very least, they deserve a small measure of common courtesy and respect.

Originally posted by rdang
The criminal companies who profit from it,care only about themselves and their friends. The Democratic congress has the ability to stop it,will they? of course not. Special interest dictates that.

Republicans have been in control of the White House and both houses of Congress for years now. How is it that the Democrats, who just returned to power, are to blame? Seems to me that the issue of immigration falls on the shoulders of both parties.

Originally posted by rdang
The Mexican Gov encourages their "least productive" to invade the US.Why? Because it does not want to care for them, so send them north,let the gringos do it. You don't see Lawers,Dr's,engineers,coming over, this is Mexicos problem.

Actually, I know quite a number of highly educated professionals from Mexico working in the Houston area. They are here legally, of course, but the point is that this where the jobs are. So you see, it really is a matter of a supply and demand workforce. If a person needs a job, they will go to where the jobs are. It doesn't matter if it entails working the fields, bussing tables, or filling a white-collar position.

Originally posted by rdang
Mexico should be educating these people,not sending them north. Mexico should be providing jobs, not the US.

If Mexico had the jobs to provide, I'm sure they would. Otherwise, we wouldn't be dealing with the issue of immigration.

But, back on topic. If a person, regardless of immigration status, pays into the social security system, they should be entitled to benefit from it.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
But, back on topic. If a person, regardless of immigration status, pays into the social security system, they should be entitled to benefit from it.

well, the common answer that i hear is essentially a covert way of saying "they don't get it because they're here illegally"

which is really sidestepping the point
the point is that they pay in
if they pay in, they should get the pay out

and also, many illegals are sending money into social security, but not withdrawing...

Originally posted by maria_stardust
[

Racism extends across all ethnic and socio-economic groups. Nothing new here. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that your posts on this thread tend to contain a racist slant. And please don't accuse me of playing a race card. I'm not. Your posts are what they are.

My posts are slanted anti-illegal. I stand by my posts.



Did you vote? If so, good for you. If not, quit whinning. We may not always agree with our elected representatives, but at the very least, they deserve a small measure of common courtesy and respect.

Tell that to the Bush bashers.



Republicans have been in control of the White House and both houses of Congress for years now. How is it that the Democrats, who just returned to power, are to blame? Seems to me that the issue of immigration falls on the shoulders of both parties.

Who said Dems? I said the elected scum. Since the Dems now have control,it's up to them.





Actually, I know quite a number of highly educated professionals from Mexico working in the Houston area. They are here legally, of course, but the point is that this where the jobs are. So you see, it really is a matter of a supply and demand workforce. If a person needs a job, they will go to where the jobs are. It doesn't matter if it entails working the fields, bussing tables, or filling a white-collar position.

Well this is about illegals.The point is they are breaking the law.So you think it's alright to break the law because you need work?



If Mexico had the jobs to provide, I'm sure they would. Otherwise, we wouldn't be dealing with the issue of immigration.

Like I said thats Mexico's problem,So it's ok to put the burden on another country?

But, back on topic. If a person, regardless of immigration status, pays into the social security system, they should be entitled to benefit from it.

I't not "regardless of immigration status" they should be entitled,they should not be here in the first place. And of course "they" only have to show 18 months of employment while American citizens have to show ten years.

Originally posted by rdang
I't not "regardless of immigration status" they should be entitled,they should not be here in the first place. And of course "they" only have to show 18 months of employment while American citizens have to show ten years.

Good old Rdang, ever pounding the point, even after he's been shown incorrect. One more time, with feeling: They don't need only 18 months of employment. They need 18 months In America and they must have the balance of their credits paid up from the Mexican system, which most of them don't participate in, thus making most of them ineligible.

American citizens get exactly the same deal. If you are an American citizen who ends up working long term in Mexico, you will only pay into one of the two systems, and if you end up with credits for both, you can combine them to meet the credit requirement.


I'm also still waiting for a reply from the last page, unless of course you've seen the light and choose not to stand by the ridiculous comments I replied to there.

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Good old Rdang, ever pounding the point, even after he's been shown incorrect. One more time, with feeling: They don't need only 18 months of employment. They need 18 months In America and they must have the balance of their credits paid up from the Mexican system, which most of them don't participate in, thus making most of them ineligible.

American citizens get exactly the same deal. If you are an American citizen who ends up working long term in Mexico, you will only pay into one of the two systems, and if you end up with credits for both, you can combine them to meet the credit requirement.








Have to love the apologists, it's sooooo easy to get false papers to meet the requirement. You could ask your sunkist friend,I'm sure he would know.

Originally posted by rdang
Have to love the apologists, it's sooooo easy to get false papers to meet the requirement. You could ask your sunkist friend,I'm sure he would know.

Really now? You know where to get false documents that cause the Mexican government's records to reflect that you are vested in their social security program? What, is Mexico doing it like a Blockbuster Rewards Card- they just punch your card when they give you your paycheck, and after you get punched 10 times you get a free retirement?

It's not a matter of documents. It's a matter of needing to have credits in the Mexican system that can be combined with your American ones.

Originally posted by rdang
My posts are slanted anti-illegal. I stand by my posts.

Riiiight... Of course they are. You would never stoop so low as to resort to cheap-shot, biased stereotypes. Your eloquent use of logic never ceases to amaze me.

Originally posted by rdang
Tell that to the Bush bashers.

What does this even have to do with the topic at hand. Nothing.

Originally posted by rdang
Who said Dems? I said the elected scum. Since the Dems now have control,it's up to them.

So, it really doesn't matter who's in office. Politicians are all scum across the board. Fair enough.

Originally posted by rdang
Well this is about illegals.The point is they are breaking the law. So you think it's alright to break the law because you need work?

I never said it was alright for anyone to break the law. I said what we are witnessing is a clear case of supply and demand. We've got the jobs, they need the jobs.

Originally posted by rdang
And of course "they" only have to show 18 months of employment while American citizens have to show ten years.

Why do you continue to beat this dead horse? Your argument has been proven flawed.

Originally posted by mecheng

Originally posted by Nygdan
Again, if you pay taxes, then you are going to be entitled to get social security.

I don't have links right now but I believe nearly every "expert" says the system will go broke by the time I retire (20 years).

And it probably will. You are still entitled to get it while you can if you are paying taxes. You can't deny social security to a person because they are mexican or look mexican, on the basis that they might be an illegal alien.

By making illegal immigrants eligible

Illegal immigrants are not eligible. They are able to use fraud to obtain social security, just like they have used fraud to get in the country in the first place.

First, that's an assumption. I'm sure illegal immigrants are just lining up ar the IRS table just thrilled to pay their taxes.

Why do you think they get fraudulent social secuirty cards? They get them so they can appear, on any paperwork that anyone might come along and see, to be regular citizens. They get paychecks, state and local taxes are deducted from them. They register for driver's licenses, pay for insurance, buy houses, rent apartments, etc.

I believe the opposite. I believe most of them get paid under the table and never contribute a dime in taxes.

Most of them aren't getting paid in cash, they are getting paychecks. They are being taxed. They are successfully fronting as being citizens.

This has nothing to do with hysteria over Bush.

Sure it does. It's his bill.
Per WND. Which, again, are a bunch of liars and frauds.

But to address your point I believe it has more to do with the AU (American Union) that seems to be getting pushed behind the scenes.

Per WND, again.


[quote[
First, they SHOULDN"T BE HERE! They entered ILLEGALLY and took jobs from American citizens. They "deserve" nothing but a ticket back.
I am not saying that illegals have a legal right to be here. I am pointing out that this is not an issue of someone saying "I am scum, I want to give illegal aliens social security that american citizens have been putting their own money into'. It is a matter of not being able to ID who is an illegal alien, and, therefore, illegals will, logically, be able to illegally obtain social security.



[quote[Second, again, you have no way of knowing that they are paying their taxes (income)
If you have no paperwork to verify that they have been working and getting paychecks and paying taxes, then you have no way to even GIVE them social security in the first place. THe illegals that haven't gotten fraudulent citizenship paperwork (such as social security cards), and have been working at menial jobs that pay in unreported cash, AREN"T GETTING SOCIAL SECURITY.

Lastly I pay into social security seperate from my taxes. The two aren't intertwined.

It comes out of your paycheck. It comes out of their paycheck.

Look at it this way, what did YOU do when you got a job that issues paychecks? Did you show up with an authentic original birth certificate? Naturalization papers? No. You give a social security card (hell, usually just the number!), and more often than not, a driver's license as an ID.

Illegal Aliens can easily obtain fraudulent social security numbers, numbers that will work like legitimate, legal social security numbers.

Once they have that, the only way to even tell that they are here illegally is for the authorities that issue social security numbers to investigate and authenticate. THe police can't do that. Employers can't do that. Heck other federal departments can't even do that, and the IRS certainly doesn't waste its time to have whoever is responsible authenticate every social security number that they get.

And, again, its not like you can just check a list to see what is authentic and which isn't. The fraudulent numbers WORK because they are properly setup and won't appear to be fraudulent.


Those are the people getting Social Security in the US. And, according to known propagandists and frauds, WND, there is a bill that will allow people who have only worked, with functioning and working social security numbers, for 18 months, to withdraw their 'fair share' of social security, based on the small amount of time that they have worked.

Not illegals sneaking into the country, stealing "our" jobs (but only the ones that pay unreported cash?) and then collecting "our" social security.

There are many threads that discuss how islam spread. Any reasonable person can see that it, like every other propagandizing religion, like christianity and buddhism, spread across the globe by a variety of means, whether it was conquistadors in the new world, gun totting llamists in central asia, or scimitar waving horsemen across the plains of persia.

Please discuss those issues in a thread specfically related to them.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
If a person, regardless of immigration status, pays into the social security system, they should be entitled to benefit from it.

I disagree 100%. If a person is here illegally, and they use illegal social security cards to illegally obtain jobs, from which taxes are deducted beacuse we have been tricked into thinking that they were legal, then they are, clearly, NOT legally entitled to social security.


If they want to be part of the system, they have to legally enter the system.

Emergency hospital care, even schooling, there's a persuasive arguement for saying 'we are better off preventing disease and rampant ignorance than making sure they are legal'. But with social security? No. If they want in, they have to enter legally.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
American citizens get exactly the same deal. If you are an American citizen who ends up working long term in Mexico, you will only pay into one of the two systems, and if you end up with credits for both, you can combine them to meet the credit requirement.

It is against Mexican Law for ANY foreign nationals to be employed in Mexico, that's a fact Jack!

Listen to this!

This morning I discovered a space alien living in my basement. He's been down there for two years. Of course I called U.S. "law enforcement" to remove him and they promptly arrived at my legally owned residence. However, they then informed me that, while yes he was "TECHNICALLY" and "BLATANTLY" disobeying a federal law of the somewhat-still-sovereign country of the United States of America, they were not going to arrest him or remove him from my residence.

Furthermore, they said, I was not allowed to remove him from my property either. And still more, I was now required to allow the space alien use of my upper floors, mailing address, computer, automobiles, savings and checking accounts, and my (nonexistent) healthcare coverage.

Also, this space alien was not going to be required to undergo a medical screening. As such, the rest of my family and children have died in the past hour due to contracted space strains of leprosy, tuberculosis, hiv, and so forth and so on. The space alien is going to go cook at a restaurant, go to a movie, attend public schools, and basically see how many other places he can spread nifty little space diseases.

Since we aren't going to prevent any more space aliens from continuing to illegally (which now means legally by default) infiltrate this COUNTRY! at a rate that can't possibly be supported by our current system or population, all current and future space aliens will become U.S. citizens. In effect, this neutralizes the border between the U.S. and any and all space aliens in this vast and growing universe.

It is now necessary for all U.S. citizens to hand address envelopes to include invitations and papers of citizenship to every space alien in the universe INCLUDING all future offspring of said aliens and on and on.

So you see, America is not a country. It is a big public park for everyone to enjoy. Just like Canada, or Japan, or Germany, or Mexico, or...

Wait a minute! It appears these other countries don't allow this type of activity. Really? You mean I can't just take a boat over to Britain or Italy or hike down to Mexico or up to Canada and live there off the books just because I WANT TO and then collect benefits two years later?

The citizens there won't pay my lawyer when I get into trouble? I'll be deported or put into jail? The nerve! Oh, I can but there's a wait to do it legally? And there's not room for everyone? Oh, you mean space aliens from other galaxies want to live in the US too? They have to wait as well? It's not a right of foreigners to live in the U.S. just because they can break the law and get in by lying and sneaking around? Wow, how unethical!

Lots of countries are horrible places to live including Mexico. Mexico has more of an obligation to ITS citizens to provide a decent place to live. Not the U.S. If I have a party in my home, I should have a right to know who comes through my doors. I don't leave my home unlocked, assume that everyone will be little responsible saints, and invite the world in a disorderly manner.

And, if my neighbors build a better house than me, I'm not allowed to go live in it because of some weird neolib or neocon agenda to form a North American Union for Treason and Travesty.

The administration is guilty of treason squared and cubed. Our founding fathers are puking in their graves and screaming Revolution. Insane criminals in office are dismantling this country faster than we can say "hello fascist dicatorship."

[edit on 9-1-2007 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]