Mexicans Getting Social Security, WTF!

I can see your point. I thought it was totally unnecessary of you to say they should be shot.

However on the point you make, I agree, the US Government is working against the american people. This is probably part of the process towards creating one super-state with Mexico and Canada, a process which is more advanced than the average american realises. On the subject of your taxes, I guess you have seen the thread about the Federal Reserve being a private bank, your income tax goes to them, not to the US government, and you probably saw the documentary be Aaron Russo.
Something should be done about it, the answer is not to shoot the mexicans. In fact I can sympatise with the mexicans, if the US government are offering them money of course they are going to take it, so would most people. If you want to shoot people it is those in power of the US Government, it is them who control the policies, so aim your guns at them.

Originally posted by golddragnet
I can see your point. I thought it was totally unnecessary of you to say they should be shot.

That wasn't me... I just kind of jumped in and commented on your post.

the US Government is working against the american people. This is probably part of the process towards creating one super-state with Mexico and Canada

DING DING DING!!! You won the grand prize!
This is exactly what this is about. It's not about protecting the American people. It's about corporations and a one-world government. How does NAFTA, the Super Highway, and now this benefit Americans? It doesn't. THe government does not represent the American people. They have their own agendas and will do anything to push those agendas through.

Edit:
Oh, and I agree. Illegal immigrants are people too. They shouldn't just be shot. But they should be sent back home and re-enter legally. I love America because of the different cultures! I have no problem with Mexican people coming here for a better life. Just do it legally. Like the rest of our forefathers.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by mecheng]

This is a very complex issue. For decades the US politicians of both parties have created an atmosphere that encouraged people to come here illegally and work.

Most of those people used fake Social Security numbers. Many of these illegals took jobs away from Americans.

Now, how do you make a fair determination of what a person who was in the country illegally should get back from Social Security.

I think that all US citizens need to bear in mind that the Social Security system will go broke in the near future and/or have to give out drastically reduced benefits.

posted by CSRules

“And entitled to nothing. Maybe once we stop this BS of protecting the Illegal over the citizen of this country, we can get things right.” [Edited by Don W]

Two other facts. Medicare. Enacted in 1965, Medicare covers persons 65 years of age or over. It is not related to Social Security, that is, any citizen at age 65 is eligible for Medicare. There are two parts to Medicare, Part A and Part B. Part A is for hospital care. Part B is for outpatient care. Part A is funded by a Medicare tax of 1.45% of wages; there is no limit on the amount of wages subject to this tax. Employers must match the employee’s contribution. Self employed pay the full 2.9%. Part A is a “paid up policy” that is, you pay the premium all during your working life, then when you retire, Part A coverage is yours at no further cost. Part B is a mixed funded plan. Currently beneficiaries are charged $94 a month, which is deducted from the monthly social security check in advance. This amount is supposed to represent 25% of the Plan’s cost. Any surplus in Part A - there have been every year - is transferred to Part B, and any shortfall in Part B is made up out of the US Treasury’s General Fund.

Part A has a substantial deductible and co-pays. Part B likewise has smaller deductibles but is an 80% pay plan. The patient is responsible fo the other 20% of approved billing. Because of this, a large Medi-gap or supplemental insurance industry has grown up. The US Government strictly regulates this industry which has proved very much to the benefit of persons 65 and over.

In sharp contrast to the smooth operation of Part A and Part B regulated private insurers, look at Part D to see what happens when the insurance industry gets to write the law. Bedlam!

The OASI covered in a post just above, and the Medicare tax, are both collected under the aegis of the FICA - Federal Insurance Contributions Act. On your paycheck, you may see either, FICA or OASI and Medicare tax. It comes to 7.65%, matched by employers, total of 15.3% of wages
with limits mentioned above. Citizenship is not required to be covered. Just taxed earnings paid into your account. You pay, you collect. You don't pay, you don't collect. Simple.



[edit on 1/5/2007 by donwhite]

posted by CSRules
Maybe once we stop this BS of protecting the Illegal over the citizen of this country, we can get things right.[Edited by Don W]

The 89th Congress - 1964-1966 - also enacted another welfare reform law out of which great and good social consequences have flowed. That law and the spirit which prompted its enactment is under severe strain today. It had two parts. A monthly payment, called Supplemental Security Income, or SSI.

A second part was enacted to provide for medical care for the indigent, called Medicaid. Before SSI, all 50 stats, many counties and a few cities had their own welfare programs to pay for those who could not work or who were too old to work. Eligibility standards varied, administration and qualifying was random, and funding was always limited.

The SSI program has uniform standards of eligibility and rules for proper administration but is overseen by the states. To get the states into the program on a voluntary basis, the Federal government pays 50% of the SSI amounts. People who fled the Deep South - skimpy payments - to the industrial North for better welfare payments no longer had to leave home to get a living dole. That in itself has many good social effects. Basically, anyone who is under age 65 is eligible for SSI if he or she cannot work due to mental incapacity or physical limitations. Once this determination is made, the person begins to receive benefits. Usually the person is required to be re-certified annually. Each locale has its own SSI amount. I believe where I live - Jacksonville FL - the amount is $455 a month.

Medicaid. Medicaid is a Federal health care plan to pay providers to treat the indigent or otherwise uninsurable, in which each state is encouraged to participate by cost sharing. At the outset of this program, the US paid 80% and the states 20% of the program’s cost. Since the passage more than 40 yeas ago, that ratio has reversed, the Feds now pay 20% and the states pay 80%.

Because we as a country have 1) surrendered any control over medical or health care costs in the US to the providers, and because 2) the rich do not especially want to pay taxes to fund health care for the poor, and because 3) the poor do not vote in a block, we are where we are. Both SSI and Medicaid are nearly dead. They desperately need CPR.

Don, thanks for filling in the blanks for those among us, who shall remain nameless, who let the media rile them up about things they don't even understand.

How dare Mexicans take a job that none of you people ever even thought about applying for and then recieve money that was theirs to begin with from the government.

I do have certain problems with these programs- I don't think it's right that some of us pay into them when we'll never need them, and I think that the coexistance of socialist and capitalist programs creates inequalities in available care. I think it would be a very good idea to take a few thousand accountants, a few hundred pizzas, and lock them all in the same room and not let them out until they've come up with a working program that covers everyone in an equitable manner.

That being said, I think the bad rap that these programs get is undeserved, particularly where recipients are called "vagrants". People work for their coverage, period. These are not "handout" programs but rather the first phases of response to a problem our government identified: namely that lassiez faire capitalism had failed to accomplish the objective of an economy in the medical sector. The oft-forgotten point of having an economy, need I remind you, is to effect the distribution of goods and services which improve people's quality of life.

As things have worked out, that has not always been accomplished properly. If you break our economy down to the analogy of a small village with a self-contained barter economy, the baker feeds the doctor and the doctor refuses to treat the baker.
The indirect nature of our trade in this non-barter economy hides this fact, but it still exists.

The idea of these social programs is to correct the shortcomings of capitalism by letting the tax payer invest in the things he needs directly rather than going through another investor at a higher price, which is no more socialist than a carpenter deciding he will build his own home instead of buying one that has already been built by others.

I should have said this earlier, because I used the word socialism in my 3rd sentence and at that point I'm sure that at least 2 members stopped reading and hit the "quote" button immediately, but oh well- if I've gotta take on the entire Ronald Reagan fanclub that's what I'll do. So here's the hedge on my bet- we're not doing away with capitalism, we're not talking about a communist redistribution of wealth wherein mobs of the proletariat raid your house and take your silverware in the name of fairness.
What we are talking about is an alternative method of raising capital. It's a matter of charging before you produce, thus raising your capital from the consumer in the form of taxation, thus making the consumer also an investor, with a profit motive measured in services rather than dollars. The government is not controlling the means of production, or significantly redistributing wealth, unless you credit a corporation with ownership of wealth it hasn't actually earned yet and call it redistribution before the fact.


In so many words, the single most socialist idea in this thread is not that immigrants recieve social security, but that some would want to redistribute their wealth by cutting them off from their investments in these programs, and presumably forcing them to continue paying into them anyway.

This is so outrageous,so unbelievable, it's like a horror movie. Illegal aliens will be made better than citizens. So this is the great plan,the "North American Union", to turn the US into a third world cesspool. The Dems,who have the power to stop this, will do what they do best..nothing.
This is not only the fault of Bush,although he is a major player,there are many,many others in this sickening traitorous plot. Watch,by spring,12 to 20 million illegals will be made citizens.The border will still be wide open to the tune of 2-4 million a year.That will increase once word of this spreads. Right The standard line of bull "just doing the jobs Americans won't" Nobody is buying that line of crap anymore. American citizens have to work TEN years to qualify,but the invaders only have to work one and a half. The US should'nt have to put up with this BS. And the hand wringing liberals,so quick to kiss the rump of anything that crawls across the border. Anything for a vote. Why dont Mexico open it's borders,not that anyone would want to live in a crime ridden,corrupt dump.

I, at the age of 20, who pays more then my fair share of SS will NEVER get a check from ss.

If I do, the amount in the SS account will be so low that I will not able to buy medication with the check I do get.

All I have to say is this.

If the United states legalizes 20 million imigrants, grants them SS, grants them our rights for breaking our laws.....

If the United States approves the North American Union......

If the United States would take such a big piss on her own people....

Resist it.

Die.

Fight to the death and DO NOT LET THESE SUIT AND TIE PIG @$%HOLES **** OVER OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!

There are things worth dieing for in my opinion. So far ALL ... thats right EVERY SINGLE BIT of the work gone into the North American Union has been done WITH OUT THE APPROVAL OF THE CONGRESS, NOT ONCE HAS AN ISSUE BEEN VOTED ON, NOT ONCE HAS IT BEEN BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT TO DECIDE IF IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL!!!! Obviously Bush, and all those working on it (including several dems) have their own plan.

Legalizing ilegal imigrants in mass.

Jesus christ. What the hell good do they think will come of that?

/rant off

Originally posted by rdang
This is so outrageous,so unbelievable, it's like a horror movie.

You didn't read a single word that DonW posted, did you Rdang? God knows I LOVE when people disagree- I play a little devils advocate myself just to keep this place interesting, but could you find it in your heart to address the facts? I see all this "we're doomed" and not one word of explanation as to why that's so.

Illegal aliens will be made better than citizens.

They already are "better than citizens" as far as corporations are concerned. They work for less, they don't quit quickly, and it's easier to establish customer loyalty by accomodating their linguistic and cultural needs as consumers.

In the respect I believe you are referring to, I think you're way off. Those of us who are here legally either by birth or by paperwork are hardly second class citizens compared to illegals.

This is not only the fault of Bush,although he is a major player, there are many,many others in this sickening traitorous plot.

How is it not his fault then? I don't claim that he is solely responsible but he's made it very clear that the buck stops in the White House... even when the constitution says otherwise. How can he be cleared of any culpability? The president has demonstrated an AMAZING ability to have his way with Congress over the last few years, so the fact that this problem hasn't even begun to be addressed seriously definately reflects on Bush.

Right The standard line of bull "just doing the jobs Americans won't" Nobody is buying that line of crap anymore. American citizens have to work TEN years to qualify,but the invaders only have to work one and a half.

First of all, they're not invaders, they're liberators Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Second of all, I have outstanding connections at a major Sunkist provider because my grandfather helped a friend of his build that business from the ground up. If these illegals have made it difficult for you to get the job you want, I can have you in the fields in 2 weeks flat- all you've gotta do is show up and I'll get you hired.

Finally, I took the liberty of looking up the US/Mexico Totalization Agreement, since I can tell that you didn't. It does not stipulate anything specifically to illegals, but is a natural consequence of what we have already discussed- that they paid money in and it is theirs.

What it does is allow them to pool credits from their original country and their new country and eliminate the possibility of a person having to pay social security taxes or similiar things in more than one country for the same income (obviously this applies primarily to legal immigrants who work in both countries), and it has the benefit of preventing American companies from having to match taxes that foreign employees pay to their home country.

www.ssa.gov...

For a cost of 105 million dollars over the first 5 years, this agreement puts 140 million dollars in the hands of consumers in America. While it does go back to my theory that we're talking about subsidized consumption, it is at least a profitable deal.

It's not exactly a special break either. The US has such agreements with 8 of our top 10 trading partners- the only two that we don't have them with are China and Taiwan, and only because they don't have equivalent programs.

The editorial you cited only looks at the costs we incur by paying out, not the savings by avoiding double taxation.

Furthermore, the 18 months is decieving. You still need all of your credits, you are simply allowed to carry over credits that you paid into the system in Mexico. Since not everyone in Mexico uses the system (under 40% of non governmental employees per your own editorial) we can infer that most immigrants will never qualify anyway.

The US should'nt have to put up with this BS.

Eloquent, but hollow. Feel free to present an argument.

Why dont Mexico open it's borders,not that anyone would want to live in a crime ridden,corrupt dump.

I've never had a problem getting into Mexico. The pepsi down there tastes... well almost spicy, i assume because they have to chlorinate the water more or something... but that's neither here nor there. Getting in is easy and I kind of like going every now and then. It's getting back across the border that's a problem. I went with my church some years ago, back when I was still a godfearing man, and one of our people misplaced his resident alien card. Coulda been ugly if not for the fact that like 1/3 of the people in our van were carrying military IDs.

Vagabond, while donw can post what he wants, the facts are at the current popultion limit SS is running low? ....

Add 20 million to it.

Then add their offspring.

The national figures say the account is running lower then what it should be at. Most of the problems come from other government agencies taking money from it but that doesn't change the fact that it is stressed at the moment.

Just another good way to encourage in-fighting among the classes and justify dismantling the social safety net.

Dole it out unjustly and all the much easier to pander to the demands of the international financial community who would like to see all social safety nets in all countries dismantled in the interest of profit.

Do away with the pesky demands for human rights while they're at it, after all - if the illegal immigrants are utilizing these 'privileges' unfairly, then true to form, the frustration will be spilt on the most vulnerable and not the instigator.

More crap from the open border fools. Maybe if a liveable wage was paid from the large corporations the could find American help. But why should they? So what if they break the law? Gotta make a profit,right. Thats all thats counts. Profit at any cost. Pass the savings to the consumer,fu. I need another million dollar vacation house. All the crime,drugs,and death that comes with the invaders,hey, thats we have police. Who cares,I'm making money,right. Who's going to pay for all the crime,drugs,death,the American taxpayers,hey,I'm rich I can afford it. Need fake papers to meet the requirements for welfare,no problem,what do you need? Come on over,everybody knows these gringos are suckers.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Vagabond, while donw can post what he wants, the facts are at the current popultion limit SS is running low? ....

Add 20 million to it.

Then add their offspring.

Even according to the opposition source that was introduced (the editorial) the SSA's estimate of applicants would have to be off by 25% for long term solvency to be affected by this particular factor. When you consider my point that the majority of illegal immigrants are likely to be inelligible, since they would still need credits from Mexico, the role of immigration in Social Security's woes seems likely to be small.

Social Security's problems, apart from borrowing from the fund, are a result of being underfunded for its progressive nature. It is hard to run a progressive system in the black when you refuse to make earnings over 92 grand subject to payroll taxes. Either payouts have to stop being progressive or payroll taxation has to become progressive. It's a simple question of revenue versus expenditure.

12 million people, legal or otherwise, only affect solvency as an affect solvency as a consequence of improper structuring of the tax/payout ratio, and not paying them doesn't fix the problem- it only forestalls it a few years until population growth replaces those unpaid people with ones who do have to be paid. The only way that not paying illegals helps is if we use them as an underclass for the support of social security by continuing to tax them even though we don't intend to pay them.

Originally posted by rdang
All the crime,drugs,and death that comes with the invaders

Beg your pardon but haven't you already been roundly trounced on that topic? This thread is about the effect on social security. Feel free to go back to the other thread (which you started incidentally) if you want to get another set of statistics dropped on your head.

The illegal invaders are not the sharpest tools in the shed maybe thats why they can't get anything more than menial jobs. Tell me again why we NEED these people. Something for nothing,is the only reason their here. Yes they pays taxes,but so do all Americans, but illegals put an unfair burden on all. Tell me why I should pay for someone from another country? Tell me why it's ok to steal a citizens ss#,I know they need a job,right. It's a nitemare if your identity is stolen Right off your credit is ruined.Don't expect much help from the Gov. Again anythin for a profit. Hard working illegals coming to YOUR neighborhood soon. Speaking about neighborhoods can't you just wait til they move next door. I mean,everyone knows their family values are so high. Your property values will only increase. This is what the US and Mexican governments want for you,good luck.

[edit on 7-1-2007 by rdang]

IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE HERE BE HERE. REGISTER. IF YOUR NOT, ENJOY YOUR VISIST AND GO HOME!

To get benefits with an express line to the front because you forgot your green card sounds pretty silly. I do agree with the fact that if you pay in you should get back.

here is the ugly fact though. They do the nations dirty work. In the food services, construction, maid/hospitality services, and farming industries illegals hold anywhere from 10 to 25% of the work force. A estimated 5% of the nations total workforce are illegals. How many of us want to pick strawberries, shuck oysters, clean the nasty hotle sheets and so on anyway.

If illegals continue to be allowed there should be a illegal tax of some sort that would be in place to pool funds to support this growing issue.

As for those who want to shoot them... grow up. I get a mental image of a hillbilly figure in a rocking chair with a shoot gun on his lap. The fence in his front yard is the border with a " beware of the hillbilly" sign every ten feet.

Lastly to truely play devils advocate, would a north american alliance really be so bad. Canada's healthcare and peacekeeping traits might rub off a little and maybe the mexicans might bring us "all mighty americans" down from our shinny pedestal before we get knocked off.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Resist it.

Fight to the death and DO NOT LET THESE SUIT AND TIE PIG @$%HOLES **** OVER OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!!

I can understand your sentiments. I think the typical reaction will be like from the guy who started this thread, it was cause tensions between the average US citizen and the mexicans. But it is entirely the lawmakers who are at fault. All anger and aggresion should be directed against them. The citizens of USa should start are major revolt against those in power. This law is a disgraceful abuse of their power and they are certainly not fit to rule. The Federal Reserve in itself should be enough also to start a revolution against the deeply corrupt US government. But are you guys seriously actually going to do something???

Originally posted by rdang
The illegal invaders are not the sharpest tools in the shed maybe thats why they can't get anything more than menial jobs.

Oh, please. You seem surprised that many illegal immigrants don't have more of an education. Speaking of which, you may want to consider remedial classes. Your spelling is deplorable.

Originally posted by rdang
Hard working illegals coming to YOUR neighborhood soon. Speaking about neighborhoods can't you just wait til they move next door.

Nice. Nothing like dragging out fear-mongering stereotypes. Not all illegal immigrants are drug overlords or gang members. I find that Mexican immigrants, illegal or not, are some of the hardest working people you'll find anywhere. To infer that they are all lazy or villainous smacks of bigotry.

Originally posted by rdang
I mean, everyone knows their family values are so high.

Are you inferring that single mothers make bad mothers? If so, wouldn't that logic apply to all races, not just Hispanic? Hmmm.

I'll give you one thing, though. There's no denying the racist slant to your post.

[edit on 1/7/2007 by maria_stardust]

Originally posted by maria_stardust



Oh, please. You seem surprised that many illegal immigrants don't have more of an education. Speaking of which, you may want to consider remedial classes. Your spelling is deplorable.

The facts do not surprise me.Sorry if I misspell once in a while.


Nice. Nothing like dragging out fear-mongering stereotypes. Not all illegal immigrants are drug overlords or gang members. I find that Mexican immigrants, illegal or not, are some of the hardest working people you'll find anywhere. To infer that they are all lazy or villainous smacks of bigotry.

There still illegal. 99% of the country works hard.Thats the first thing claimed:rascist,bigotry when confronted with the truth.



Are you inferring that single mothers make bad mothers? If so, wouldn't that logic apply to all races, not just Hispanic? Hmmm.

I did'nt make that inference,is that how you read the article? Hmmmm?

[edit on 1/7/2007 by maria_stardust]

Originally posted by rdang
The illegal invaders are not the sharpest tools in the shed maybe thats why they can't get anything more than menial jobs.

Not only is suggesting racial inferiority irrelevant to our topic, it’s ignorant, undignified, and against the rules. I’m not telling you what to do, but I don’t mind sharing the wisdom of a few years membership that I’ve never seen anything good come of that kind of thing, especially for the person who posts it.

Tell me again why we NEED these people.

My great grandmother didn’t need white people. Sucks for the Choctaw, eh? But hey, maybe we’ll get this who “if we don’t need you, you can’t live here” thing going and make things right. I just hope you’re an important person. I’d hate to see you deported.

Something for nothing

Is “nothing” a little known synonym for “back breaking labor” or are you out of your mind? My grandfather supervised a lot of immigrants, both illegal and otherwise in his career with a citrus company, and nothing wasn’t in their job description. As a matter of fact, one season a sudden freeze required picking to start early, before the ranch had crewed up. The Marines from 29 Palms volunteered to help because agriculture is so important to this area’s economy. The Marines couldn’t keep up with the immigrant crews to save their lives.

Yes they pays taxes. Tell me why I should pay for someone from another country?

For the same reason you pay for someone from this country. It doesn’t particularly matter where they are from, and as you pointed out, they pay taxes, meaning that you’re not fully subsidizing them. Illegals, despite higher rates, are an extremely small portion of the total burden because they are so greatly outnumbered by citizens, as we discussed in a previous thread. You’d be unlikely to even notice the difference if the taxes you pay for illegals were suddenly to vanish.

Tell me why it's ok to steal a citizens ss#, I know they need a job,right.

First and foremost, it’s not OK. Second, you just put your foot straight into your mouth where this thread is concerned. Has it ever occurred to you that if they don’t have their own SSN they couldn’t possibly draw Social Security?
I am of course aware that identity theft does happen, mainly because the criminals who sell IDs are lazy. It’s relatively easy to obtain an original SSN- all you need is a couple of documents that can either be forged or obtained fraudulently through the mail, and the nerve to sit in a face to face interview and lie without flinching. Naturally I will not be explaining an illegal process on PTS, but suffice it to say that it’s very doable.

Your property values will only increase.

So after all the boogeyman propaganda by which you implied that the average “hardworking illegal” is a member of MS-13, and the flurry of racism-meets-meritocracy rhetoric, all you were really trying to say was “there goes the neighborhood”? Rdang, you befuddle me in ways that tofu never could. (yeah I know that wasn’t from you, but still).