Murdered Black Entertainers: No Justice

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Even in 2007 most black individuals belive that whites truley don't care about them. How does it make you feel that you are proving them right, at least on some level? Until whites stop blaming the blacks for being to angry, and honestly look at the reason why they have so much anger...nothing in the world will ever change.

If i may respectfully say you are uneducated as to why these black rappers feel the way they do. If you don't understand why people like Tupac's lyrics would touch a sensitive nerve with a black individual..then i suggjest you research some black history... If you honestly want to debate at least try and educate yourselves on simple matters...instead of blindly saying ignorant things like "all they do is sing about rape and murder"

OMG, thank you for saying this!! You are my hero!

You have voted Spawwwn for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I think that post is worth an entire thread of it's own. I would love to get other members' opinions on every single thing you said.

I can attest to the fact that many, many, many black people feel that whites don't care about us, and, yes, some of the stuff I read here makes that seem, more and more, like a very real possibility.

I never knew so many white people still felt this way, until I came to ATS. Well, I suspected that there were a few hold-outs, but, judging by what I've read here (on ATS), it seems the percentage may be higher than I thought. That is extremely disconcerting. Like, really.

It has always saddened me that the one group of people I expect to be more enlightened simply aren't. I've mentioned it before, but it's one of those insightful comments (I thought:@@ to which no one ever responds.

Oh, and here's a thread, started by INc2006, about Tupac's murder. In the spirit of full disclosure, I posted in it as well.
Impoverished black America: what was tupac?


[edit on 5-1-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Racist attitudes? Because I’m real about how the police and society is? That’s extremely funny considering if you look at the replies I got most are from semi racist white folks who just wanna turn it around and say it’s the black mans fault, without really trying to understand where they are coming from. It’s truly sad that these kinds of attitudes exists. What I’ve been trying to tell you, is that instead of automatically assuming that there’s no reason for us to be mad anymore, look at your attitudes and see how we would still be mad. I don’t know how you can call me racist when everything you say backs me up almost 100%. I am trying to say that there’s a general feeling of don’t give a crap attitude, and what has a lot of these posts done? People have gone on and on how they feel they shouldn’t care...can’t you see that’s exactly the reason I made this post? Attitudes like the ones I am seeing make it very clear why none of this murders have been solved. A lot of Whites simply don’t care. So who are you to call me a racist when I’m saying that a lot of whites are racist, and all you are doing is proving me right?

Who was the last white rapper you known to have gotten shot and killed? Name one. Vanilla Ice? Eminem? I’m trying really hard but you are totally twisting this into something that it’s not even supposed to be. Agenda? What agenda? Trying to make people aware that the police they love so much still treat minorities as dogs? Yes oh I have such an agenda because I want people to be aware of what still goes on in society.

Racist attitude? Yes because you automatically assume it's a black & white thing rather than a 'hanging around with crims & gangs' and 'the police' thing. If I was a Police Chief i wouldn't prioritise crimes where all enquiries are met with a shrug and silence - that's just a fact of life.

Semi-racist? I think that's an impossibility - same as half pregnant.

Some replies do have a racist tone but there are also others who see your own posts as racist too. Given the tone of your post I'm not surprised at the reaction you've had from some.

Black people kill black people and it's the fault of whites? don't get that one.

OK on white rappers but why don't you find better examples than the one you cite - 2 people in the same area, same situation, killed, one black one white, give examples detailing the different Police responses and you may get closer to proving your point. Comparing actual events and hypothetical situations will get you nowhere.

FWIW I agree that the US is an inherently racist society but it's a two-way street with bigottry on both sides. I should add the US certainly isn't alone in this regard

Oprah Wnifrey did a show on 'class' which was quite telling in a number of the things people said ... I believe that some of the things people said were more related to race relations than to pure consumerist/capitalist 'Class', which is really only about how much you have and the wealth you project. A society that concentrates on 'class' in the capitalist fashion will undoubtedly discriminate against those of perceived 'lower class', this is a part of the problem we are discussing in this thread ... many 'upper/middle-class' people do not feel anything toward people of 'lower class' except for them to get out of their sight. This attitude is also known as disenfranchisement.

Real class? I haven't seen many examples of that anywhere, but I do believe that Pres. Johnson's Great Society did alot to push Black Americans into a dusty forgotten corner.

Me - I teach people to fish/farm.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
Oprah Wnifrey did a show on 'class' which was quite telling in a number of the things people said ... I believe that some of the things people said were more related to race relations than to pure consumerist/capitalist 'Class'

I saw the show too, and you're right about the focus on race. Then again, I only caught the last 36 minutes, so I missed the beginning. I gained a whole new respect for her, just for having the show.

You do raise an interesting point, though: Are race and class so closely intertwined in this country that she couldn't talk about one without the other? Or do you think she steered the show that way because of all the flak she's been getting lately about the school in South Africa?

Well harlem hottie i thank you for your gracious words and your generous vote. yeah don't be shy invite whoever you'd like to this thread. About time i see at least a couple of posts here that will actually lead somewhere.

let me just handle a little business then i will get back to you.....@strangerous = Don't assume because i am talking about race i automatically have a racist attitude. I'm not a fool. I see every day what i call shadow racism..a form of racism, where you oppress your opponent through less obvious means. I don't think it's a coincedence that the minority population in prison is staggering. I don't think it's a coicedence that racial profiling is a real problem in society. Like i said even 50 years ago people were still segregated. The parents of those times had very racist attitudes that were passed on to their kids. So if a guy is 50 now, and a police cheif..he still might remeber how his dad tought him to hate blacks. That's a hard thing to unlearn. So it's not about having a racist attitude, it's about being realistic. You want me to just up and say this doesn't exist? No that's ignorant and i thought we were here to deny that.

As for the white rappers being killed...that's not my burden. If you want to challenge the points i've made, then the burden is on YOU to come up with examples and show them to me. That's the whole point of rebuttal. If you think i made a point and disaggree, then the burden of proof is on you to show me facts to back your rebuttal up. So find me some articles of white rappers who have been shot and their murders go unsolved..that's not my job..And i never said black people kill black people and it's the white mans fault. even now you are not listening to me. I said that it seems strange that many famous blacks will be murdered...yet their cases remain unsolved.

back @ hottie...like you i didn't quite expect this result from some of the community. yeah i expect it to a degree..but it seemd like there was more doging the issue and trying to undermine the points i am making..or simply twisting or distorting them all together. it's quite funny how some of the silliest subject will be debated for pages..but as soon as we touch a nerve that people are uncomfortable about, people run away and hide.

i think when we talk about race nowadays..the idea is that "well we're not segregated so what does it matter". When you bring up things like these people assume it's just "playing the race card" which is such a cheap way of avoiding the real issue. People run from race talks because they feel it's not important as long as people aren't sitting at the back of the bus. but the fact of the matter is, if these attitudes still exist..there's a problem. Just because we dont' talk about them, doesn't mean they go away. In fact it's almost worsened because eventually some people will be unaware of these facts, and could find themselves in a lot of trouble.

They feel it's just "complaining" because to them..we have as much opportunity as the next person, so why should we be upset? See sometimes it's not just about opportunity..it's about a certain way we see ourselves being treated in the media, or by law enforcement that makes us question if racism is really as dead as people say it is. obvsiously if these people can rise to fame, yes there is opportunity for them. But if they can be brutaly killed and nobody cares because they didn't approve of some aspects of their lifestyle, what is that saying about society? That it's ok to disregard a humans life because you disagree with some of the things they say or do? It's worsened by the fact that some people wont even take the time to consider why those people might be saying some of the things they are saying.

now 2steps brought up a very good point (finally someone did...) could this also be a separation of class that we see? Lets take tupac...he might have been wealthy...but people still associate him with a lower class because that is the audience that identifys with him. so maybe that is why law enforcement doesn't do as much to solve his murder? Not only could it be slightly racist, but i think it's very valid to say that because law enforcement thought he was of a lower class, that they did not need to waste their time solving his murder. There was a post on the 1st page how the LV police dept. was critized for not doing more to solve his murder. Obviously this is not some kind of paranoid delusion..this is a real fact, and hiding from the issue or making up excuses why it doesn't exsist will solve nothing.

Now this is actually getting intriguing...could it be less of a wealthy or maybe even race issue than how the media and people separate themselves into class? maybe race is just a small peice of the puzzle. combined i think that is why we have the lack of effort on all fronts. you take the idea of "well their just lower class people, even if they have a lot of money" and add to the fact that there might be a bit of racism..and we have a very interesting (though rather disturbing) reason why there is not more of an effort to solve these crimes.

as people have expressed in this thread...some simply don't care. Many times i've heard that they were just "wanna be gangstas anyway". that attitude backs up that class point a great deal. Maybe people saying that type of stuff probly would feel threatend, or have anger toward a person they saw as being "gangsta". In truth, most of the hip hop attitude is just a front. It's parshily based in real life, but the truth is that if these rappers really did kill as many people as they say they did, they would possibly be in jail.

So this brings up another peice we can add to this, and that is...does class affect the way law enforcement treats the citizens? Did that perception of class have something to do with these murders not being solved? i don't know i'll have to look at his link and possibly find that show so i can fully understand what he was saying.

but i just wanna say thanks again to both of you for finally pushing this topic forward. maybe now we can finally get somewhere in this discussion instead of having to bicker every minute.

the perception of class and race.....yeah that definatley could be a reason why these murders have not gotten the attention they deserve.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by Spawwwn]

I understand what the OP is saying, but the fact is a large number of murders in this country go unsolved for years. The following is an article concerning the murder of three young people, two white and one black. DNA has recently tied these two cases together and may suggest a serial killer.

The director of a criminal justice school in Illinois is looking into the possibility that the unsolved 1988 rape and murder of two women in Northern Virginia may be linked to a bisexual man who patronized one of D.C.’s gay nightclubs on O Street, SE.

*snip*

The slayings of the two Northern Virginia women and the boyfriend of one of them have remained unsolved for nearly 17 years and have baffled police in Arlington and Fairfax, who considered them unrelated for more than a decade. It was not until April of 2000 that a DNA test showed that semen found inside the two women came from the same man.

*snip*

The DNA test that matched the semen extracted from Raver’s and Jefferson’s bodies 11 years after the murders shocked investigators from the two police departments, according to a lengthy article about the cases published in the Washington Post Magazine in June 2001. Post reporter Tamara Jones wrote that the DNA match came at a time when scientific advances made forensic DNA technology more readily available for criminal investigations.

It also came at a time when detectives who worked separately on the two cases did not believe they were linked to a serial killer, Jones reported. Raver was white and Jefferson was black, a factor that contradicted the conventional wisdom that serial killers seek out victims of the same race. The fact that Raver was with a boyfriend at the time she was abducted also appeared to fly in the face of the belief by Fairfax police that a serial killer would not seek out a woman accompanied by a man.
www.washblade.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source

I worked in Fairfax during this time and remember the murder of Veronica Jefferson. I worked for her uncle and ended up buying Veronica’s Camaro. Although I had the interior detailed, some of the fingerprint dust could never be cleaned off. Also, the police kept the gearshift knob and the tire that hit the curb as evidence. I had to buy replacements. I wrote all of that to let you know that the police did their best to recover forensic evidence. The fact that this crime is still unsolved is not through neglect or complacency. It is due to inadequate evidence that would lead to an arrest.

Often two or three crimes are solved in an hour on shows such as CSI. However, it doesn’t happen that way in real life. Even if they have a suspect, without evidence, they are screwed. TV programs show investigators picking up a plethora of evidence, but in real life much of this evidence is benign. Witness statements give investigators a direction to consider for suspects. When the evidence matches the suspect then an arrest is made. This is why witnesses are so important. Evidence is often usless without someone to match to it. The only ones guilty of neglect and complacency are the witnesses who refuse to share information with law enforcement.

Well,
I listened to 50 cents call Oprah an oereo (black on the outside, white on the inside) because her show was for white people.

Ophrah shot him down with the sheer amount of charity work she does for blacks in poor areas, black schooling, black college funding ect ect, and said she had the right to make a show for every body, not just one race.


Now, that comment from 50 cents was very telling - He moans about the ghetto, trying to escape it, trying to get 'respect', and yet because Ophrah has respect, love, and a very kind heart, and white people watch her show she gets slated by him..

Seems the black rappers just have a real bad attitude all round to every thing in life they come into contact with thats not black and ghetto. Sad, but true, as its all they blooming well sing about. ghetto/guns/drugs/respect/hating police and white people. Nice folks, nice.

UPDATE: Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 28, 2005

The story I reported in the above post was apparently solved:

Nearly 17 years after three people were abducted and shot to death in Northern Virginia -- a CIA financial officer behind an Arlington elementary school and two college students in a Reston field -- police believe they have found their killer sitting on death row in a California prison.
Preliminary tests show that DNA taken from convicted killer Alfredo R. Prieto, 39, matches samples from the two crime scenes, according to court records.
www.washingtonpost.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source

And: Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, April 29, 2006

A death row prisoner from California was brought to Northern Virginia under heavy security last night to face three capital murder charges in the random shootings 18 years ago of three people in Fairfax and Arlington counties.
Alfredo R. Prieto already faces a death sentence for the 1990 rape and shooting death of a 15-year-old girl in San Bernardino County, Calif. He has been held in San Quentin State Prison since his conviction in 1991.
It wasn't until 2004, however, that Prieto's DNA was entered into a nationwide database. Fairfax County homicide detectives, continuing to work on the December 1988 slayings of Rachael Raver and her boyfriend, Warren H. Fulton, both 22, resubmitted DNA from the crime scene along Hunter Mill Road near Reston.
www.washingtonpost.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source

And: Edition of Dec. 8, 2006

Judge Dennis J. Smith denied a motion passed by Alfred R. Prieto's attorneys, Peter D. Greenspun and Jonathan Shapiro, Monday to make the death penalty in Prieto's case unconstitutional.
*snip*
Morrogh said later that although it will be a challenge to put the pieces of this case together, the families are available and the Commonwealth would seek the death penalty. Prieto will be back in court Feb. 1 for jury selection and his trial will commence March 19.
observernews.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Source

I have lost touch with the Jeffersons over time but I cried when I read this. There is always hope!