My homeschooled daughter lacks socialization...or so they rant...

Originally posted by Undomiel

Originally posted by greenkoolaid
After all, the average American reads at about a sixth grade level.

I don't personally know anyone that reads at sixth grade level. In fact, most people I know read quite well, at least college level. I think your assertions are based on falsified information. Someone, somewhere, manipulated the data.

As to 'most people', it is important to realize that your context shapes your perception.

For example:
If your context is a univerity neighborhood or diplomatic enclave,
you might be biased to believe everyone is more literate than reality permits.

The truth is out there, and those of us involved in home-schooling need to be aware of these facts.

Measuring literacy against a 'grade level' is probably a deceptive trick.
There probably exists a better scale of measurement.

...X...

[edit on 2004-7-9 by Teknik]

Children need to socialize with there peers to aquire the unstated skills and rules of social interaction that can not be learned from adult family members.

Heres a link that explains better then i can
www.kidsgrowth.com...

I know people from all walks of life, all ages, ethnic groups, various religions (or the lack thereof), different places (different states, different cities/towns/rural areas), some related, some not, and seriously, not one of them has a below college level reading ability.

My dearly departed parents were both capable of reading and comprehending complex information, although they were originally from a small farming community in Kentucky. My dad was a 33rd degree Mason and my mom was a devout student of eschatology. My sister is an author of 15+ published women's books. Her husband is a french-canadian lumberjack from the upper peninsula of Michigan. He can fix literally anything and can read a blue print of just about any type of system, fix it, modify it, and so on. Their children are equally well-read and talented. My friend is an average mormon wife with a penchant for history and historical romance. Her husband is an engineer for what use to be known as Morton Thiokol (the people who build the Solid Rocket Boosters for the Space Shuttles). Their kids are all capable of reading college level material, and in fact, even their son who imbibes a bit too frequently, can read college level material and was a substance abuse counsellor of sorts for awhile. My brother had 6 kids, all of which are capable of reading college level material. My niece moved to California and married a black man. Her husband is a maker of fine cabinetry, college-educated and quite the entrepenuer. Their children are bright and will no doubt one day be old enough to also read college level material with ease. She's a 5th grade teacher. I've met countless people on the internet from almost every age group, and most can not only read college level material, but they can write elaborate stories, elaborate posts and have bright active minds.

All my husband's brothers, and their wives, are capable of college level reading comprehension: one is an engineer at Ford Motor Company, one is a Systems Analyst for the US Army, one is a mechanical engineer for General Motors, one troubleshoots data systems for Taco Bell, my husband is a 20 year career military man in the USAF, who served in 2 wars, has several top secret clearances, and is more than capable of college level reading comprehension.

All the people I've met as a result of my sister's endeavors, have been articulate and well-read people. The same for the people my husband has introduced me to in his work place. Many of the people here at ATS are quite capable of not only reading and comprehending college level material, but writing it as well. The Shihan at my son's dojo is a decorated soldier from another culture, who can not only read complex, college level materials, but introduces new learning techniques for his students to absorb Karate more efficiently and run his business with more financial success. The lady who lives next door to me now, is an articulate, intelligent woman of some 65+ years who serves at the catholic church in the vicinity and donates time to assist in relief efforts. She is well-read and is surely capable of college level reading comprehension. The young woman who lived next door to me in the previous neighborhood (on a military base no less), was from Wisconsin. She was impoverished, bright, intelligent, with a large reading library, and even though she was not college-educated, she was more than capable of reading college level material (and she was a stripper by profession!).

This goes on and on. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this 6th grade reading level of americans can be accurate.....at all. Even the strippers have college level reading ability. I simply don't know anyone with that problem. I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met them and I've lived in poverty and in the middle class.


[edit on 6-7-2004 by Undomiel]

Originally posted by dwh0
Children need to socialize with there peers to aquire the unstated skills and rules of social interaction that can not be learned from adult family members.

Heres a link that explains better then i can
www.kidsgrowth.com...

Read my previous post. In fact, read the thread author's posts. We are homeschoolers and our kids still get social interaction with other kids. One of my children, however, is a homebody. He loves home and hearth, nothing wrong with that. It's his inate temperment and not the result of his homeschooling. The other 2 are quite social and active.

Originally posted by Undomiel
I know people from all walks of life, all ages, ethnic groups, various religions (or the lack thereof), different places (different states, different cities/towns/rural areas), some related, some not, and seriously, not one of them has a below college level reading ability.

...X...

This goes on and on. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this 6th grade reading level of americans can be accurate.....at all. Even the strippers have college level reading ability. I simply don't know anyone with that problem. I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met them and I've lived in poverty and in the middle class.

Although I am still chasing this up, here's a tidbit I came across from
Cybercommunications

Today there is a significant gap in the reading ability of Americans. State and national
surveys define adult literacy as those who read at an eighth grade level. According to the
1992 National Adult Literacy Study, 92 million adults in the US, almost 48% of the
population have low or very low reading skills.4 This report found that many adults lack
the basic reading, writing and computational tasks necessary to understand health, personal
finance, travel and governmental services information.
This study concluded that one out of five adults read at or below fifth grade levels. Among
inner city minorities, almost two out of five are illiterate. In addition, two out of five older
Americans (65+) read at or below the 5th grade reading level, while the average adult reads
between the 8th and 9th grade levels.

speaking of, home school sure didnt help my social skills at all, believe me im bad at interaction in real life.

better for learning yes but not for social development.

[edit on 6-7-2004 by namehere]

Wow, Teknik. This has not been my experience. I don't anyone with an 8th or 9th grade reading level either. Most people I know (and many acquaintances) are quite well read and intelligent. Where are they getting these figures? Something's wrong with that data.

namehere,

People in public school are just as likely to be bad at social interaction as homeschoolers. I recall when I attended public school, a girl who had been passed from foster home to foster home. She was violent and emotionally unbalanced. One day she decided she didn't like one of the other girls and she nearly strangled her to death. Three days later, the girl still had the bruise marks on her neck from the attempted strangulation. I would say that was a case of bad social skills. (and there alot more where that came from)

Originally posted by Undomiel
Wow, Teknik. This has not been my experience. I don't anyone with an 8th or 9th grade reading level either. Most people I know (and many acquaintances) are quite well read and intelligent. Where are they getting these figures? Something's wrong with that data.

More at The Annual Review of Adult Learning and Literacy

Let me know if you have difficulty understand the big words:

Furthermore, the NALS study presented the surprising finding that most of the adults performing at the two lowest literacy levels did not see themselves as having limited skills, stating their belief that they could read and write English well or very well. Many also reported that they do not seek help with reading from others (Kirsch, Jungeblut, Jenkins, & Kolstad, 1993).

It is much worse than these bits and pieces demonstrate.
Most who 'read' only understand to superficial levels.

...X...

Heh. Well call me delusional and reading challenged if you must, but I was on the Dean's List and the President's List in college about 5 years ago. lol (Pre-med student. My goal was to become a doctor of natural medicine. I know alot about herbs.) I have a fairly decent knowledge of ancient Egypt, biblical prophecy, ancient cultures, mythology, and etc. And I consider myself to be one of the less educated members of my family, as I was unable to finish my college degree (3 years of it, though). Oddly enough, my sister, who doesn't have a college degree, I consider to be one of the smartest people I have ever met.

It all comes up to how much the parents teach and take it seriously. It also comes down to how active a kid is as well. They will have great social skills if they do sports r other activities in the community, play with friends outside, get involved in things. If they sit home all day then they will of course have problems. Now, kids in regular school are no different. There are kids that only go to school and have almost no interaction. The only thing school does is give them a chance to have more interaction. But, if the parents are serious and get their kids involved in community things or clubs, groups etc, then there is no difference.

And to quote from the article you linked, Teknik:

African American, American Indian/Alaskan Native, Hispanic, and Asian/Pacific Islander adults were shown to be more likely than white adults to have limited literacy skills

Okay, another oddity. I personally know 2 native americans. Both are not only literate but highly intelligent. I also personally know 3 black americans. All three are highly intelligent and literate. One is a retired Navy Seal, an active member in the community and in the local church. He's an avid reader. One is a college-educated carpenter and entrepenuer who has a successful business in California. And one is an enlisted man in the United States Air Force.

Who are they getting to take their literacy tests and what questions are they asking, for gads sakes? This reminds me of the tests for gaining rank in the Air Force. Not only must you know the information and be able to answer the question, but as you gain in rank, you must be able to extract the actual question from a twisted morass of negatives and positives that reads more like an algebra problem than a multiple choice questionnaire. I feel sorry for the guys in the Air Force, as they are up against a contingent of psychology and psychiatry majors who are hired to write the questions precisely for their knowledge of how best to confuse and befuddle the human brain.

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
It all comes up to how much the parents teach and take it seriously.

That's what the test results indicate as well,
� at Literacy Fact Sheets Overview which finds that:

also found that in spring 2000, the children who were read to at least three times a week by a family member were almost twice as likely to score in the top 25% in reading than children who were read to less than 3 times a week.

The same fact sheet inspires curiousity whether this is more popular elsewhere:

Students in Finland, Canada, and New Zealand outperformed U.S. students.

But then again, being smart and being educated are not necessarily synonymous.
Those who study independently learn to inspire themselves.

Originally posted by Undomiel
...And I consider myself to be one of the less educated members of my family, as I was unable to finish my college degree (3 years of it, though). Oddly enough, my sister, who doesn't have a college degree, I consider to be one of the smartest people I have ever met.

Don't feel shy, a college degree only means you learned
� how to prioritize which hoops to jump through for which ringmaster.
Whether you actually learn what a 'degree' says you know is a matter of personal effort.

Some of the most important people in history never graduated from a degree factory.
Some of the most ignorant sludge to ever inspire news headlines
� were 'degreed' by respected institutions.

...X...

[edit on 2004-7-6 by Teknik]

While being socialized does indeed prepare them for the real world when they grow up, i don't believe all those negative influences do the job properly.

If they want socialization which I agree with, they do, sign them up for soccer, there's gotta be some leagues around your home .

Even rowing, thats an excellent sport, the girls are very dedicated, tough, and very nice people. Not to mention it will teach them alot. That is by far the toughest sport out there.

Sports is not only fun , it's an educational process as well. They may not be conscious of it, but they will learn things everyday and socialization is one of them.

Some of the worlds finest authors, artists, politicians (well, Gandhi maybe), and philosophers have come from deprived backgrounds, and been exposed to the horrific realities fo life. People need to see the world from one end of the spectrum to the other to truly understand it.

Homeschooling isn't allowed in Britain, except under certain circumstances, and i think this is a good move. We all live in a shared community after all, so why not learn together too?

[edit on 8-7-2004 by Smokersroom]

Originally posted by Machine

Drugs, sexual promiscuity, foul language, vile rap and rock music, undisciplined children, impotent teachers, chaotic learning environments, bullies, God free zones, and extreme violence.

[Edited on 2-12-2003 by Machine]

I am one for parents rights 100% and I say you do what you think is right. I however think your missing the point.

When your daughter gets out there in life she will have to deal with all those things above and more. Your in my opinion denying her critical "on the life training" (on the job training) by hiding her from reallity that she must face one day. All those things you listed above are part of life and you cannot protect her forever, plus your not letting her experince people and environments so that she learns how to deal with those things.

Best thing to do is tell her over and over what is right and what is wrong and let them learn and decide who they are going to be. Because they will one day do that with or without your permission or protection.

Either way good luck

Boy I sure disagree with that Xeven.

One characteristic of adolescence is a sort of "above the law" reality. They are both too young to be held entirely accountable for their actions, and old enough to know how to manipulate the system that seeks to conform them to a more civilized existence they should be prepared for by adulthood. Behavior in a public high school frequently is more akin to dropping your kids off in the worst part of the worst neighborhood on the planet and telling them to fend for themselves. It's an alternate reality created by the "pocket" of protected violence we have set aside for our adolescent population. This is not preparation for adulthood. Rather it's a dive into temporary mass insanity. Everywhere else in society, people must follow the rules, adhere to civilized behaviors and conduct. All that goes out the window in a public high school, for example. It isn't preparation for adulthood, but more like playing russian roulette with your child's life.

[edit on 8-7-2004 by Undomiel]

Originally posted by Undomiel
Boy I sure disagree with that Xeven.

One characteristic of adolescence is a sort of "above the law" reality. They are both too young to be held entirely accountable for their actions, and old enough to know how to manipulate the system that seeks to conform them to a more civilized existence they should be prepared for by adulthood. Behavior in a public high school frequently is more akin to dropping your kids off in the worst part of the worst neighborhood on the planet and telling them to fend for themselves. It's an alternate reality created by the "pocket" of protected violence we have set aside for our adolescent population. This is not preparation for adulthood. Rather it's a dive into temporary mass insanity. Everywhere else in society, people must follow the rules, adhere to civilized behaviors and conduct. All that goes out the window in a public high school, for example. It isn't preparation for adulthood, but more like playing russian roulette with your child's life.

[edit on 8-7-2004 by Undomiel]

Yea well you punish and mentor. Ask lots of questions and be involved. I see the kids people like you put out. ( I dont mean to be rude. I am in the USAF and see all types. I regularly have 20-30 17-19 year old new airmen to mentor. I speak with them one on one for hours at times when they get into trouble. Almost always the trouble makers/imature/unsociable ones had very strict parents/ Preachers for parent or went to religious or private schools almost always. I have to do my best to help them learn the discipline of living and working around others that do not share their own value systems. I see the end result of home schooling and private schooling. Ive been at it for over 15 years now and seem several 100 different lifestyle children come through. Most of the ones who cannot adapt are home schooled or had very unforgiving or strict upbringing. Also the ones with alchoholic fathers tend to end up kicked out pretty early in their enlistments.

Anyway, I beleive what matters most is concerned parents and parents should have the right to raise their children the way they want to. I don't however have to agree with how everone else does it.

X

[edit on 9-7-2004 by Xeven]

in ref to homeschooled children lacking social skills I myself was homeschool every year from k-college the latter meaning college by choice
and ease.....I was only in public schools 4 of those years but I still found a way to fit in I the key was my parents didnt force me or allow others to bother me about it I was given the options meaning if there was an event mom said hey you know there is a party over at this place you can go if you want or we can have family time.... more times than not I chose to explore new relationships with people my own age as a changed to the every day drumming to the same beat so dont worry she will get the hang of it its all trial and error but you offer her activity options and I'll bet she decides to start taking you up on them if anything just for the change.

Originally posted by Xeven
... Almost always the trouble makers/imature/unsociable ones had very strict parents/ Preachers for parent or went to religious or private schools almost always. I have to do my best to help them learn the discipline of living and working around others that do not share their own value systems. I see the end result of home schooling and private schooling. Ive been at it for over 15 years now and seem several 100 different lifestyle children come through. Most of the ones who cannot adapt are home schooled or had very unforgiving or strict upbringing.

That's an interesting observation.

I would wonder if this tendency means that we who support homeschooling
� are swamped with parents who practice homeschooling by
� locking their kids in the closet when they are not eating or studying?

There is vast 'conservative bible-thumping' support for homeschooling,
� but the rest of us (I hope!) understand homeschooling
� means a lot more than cracking books at home to avoid an evil-possessed world.


...X...