Saddam and the Kurds

Let's see if we can uncover what a cluster# of disinfo this war really was. Feel free to add or dispute this info. It is highly complicated, and the real story lies under a massive blanket of propaganda.

These are some ignored facts about the Halabja incident.

Many of those calling for military action against Iraq do so by invoking the rhetoric of 'humanitarian intervention', presenting an attack on Iraq as a 'noble moral cause'. Those that now condemn Saddam Hussein's human rights abuses citing his use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in Halabja in 1988 are right to do so. However, they often neglect to mention that at the time the actions of the US and British governments were rather different. The truth is that the British and American administration's had scant regard for the plight of Iraqi Kurds in Halabja in 1988. Indeed, both governments were busy secretly arming the Iraqi dictator, in contravention of their own and international laws. At the time of Iraq's unleashing of deadly mustard and nerve gas on Iranian soliders in 1984, current US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was in Baghdad meeting with then-Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz (Rumsfeld had met Saddam Hussein in Baghdad in 1983) (1).
As Dilip Hiro (2) has recently pointed out, Colonel Walter P. Lang, a senior Defence Intelligence Officer at the time, said that "the use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern". Chemical weapons were added to military plans which US intelligence officers prepared and suggested. Rumsfeld did not make any public condemnation of the use of chemical weapons until Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

The first recorded use of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war was in 1982, two years into the conflict. Both sides used them, but Saddam was the first, in response to Iran�s vast manpower that had begun to turn the tide on Iraq�s initial advances.

Halabja was a turning-point because for the first time the evidence of chemical attack was impossible to ignore. The town had no military or economic value in itself, but control of it allowed access to a strategic road controlling a complex of water projects in north-east Iraq. The Iranians wanted to take it and it was the scene of heavy fighting.

According to a suppressed CIA report mentioned in the book The Iran-Iraq War: chaos in a vacuum by former CIA political analyst Stephen Pelletiere, the Iranians did use chemical weapons in the battle around Halabja.

It is certain that the town changed hands during the fighting and in a desperate attempt to fend off the Iranians, the Iraqi commanders ordered the use of mustard gas. There were at least two raids made by low-flying Iraqi aircraft spraying the gas - some Kurds claim there were more.

According to Pelletiere, the CIA report indicates that Kurdish civilians were collateral damage, and were not a deliberate target of Saddam. He also suggests that many deaths were caused by a cyanide-based gas, which was used by the Iranians, and not by the Iraqis.

More info...

A War Crime Or an Act of War?

No doubt, Saddam has mistreated Kurds during his rule. But it's misleading to say, so simply and without context, that he killed his own people by gassing 5,000 Kurds at Halabja.

Did Saddam Gas His Own People?

5,000 give or take a few huh Satyr.....
Are you, in a sense, "forgiving" him or "excusing" him from this action, regardless of it being a war-time situation? Hypocritical when compared to how many here condemn Bush for what he is doing, don't you think?

Nonetheless........
Can you, or anyone else here, "excuse" or "forgive" him for this:
"Since the regime fell in April 2003, U.S. and international forensics teams have searched for evidence of the scale and scope of the Baathist regime's human rights abuses. As of this date, there are more than 200 mass gravesites in Iraq. Some estimates place the number of victims of the regime at 300,000 to one million. Most gravesites are believed to contain the bodies of Shiite Muslims, as well as Kurds killed in the post-1991 war uprisings against Saddam Hussein"
Link:
releases.usnewswire.com...

"A Brief History of Human Rights in Iraq"
Link:
www.iraqfoundation.org...

"Halabja"
Link:
www.kdp.pp.se...

Perhaps Halabja was an 'exceptional' case......but....
as tragic as war may be, 5,000 give or take a few, does not even come close for me to excuse the man for killing nearly a projected million people out of a country with roughly 22 million inhabitants (1997 approx. numbers)...........


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 19-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Interesting post, Satyr

Seekerof, who said anything about forgiving him or excusing him? *confused*

All very well until you take into account the Anfal campaign against the Kurds.
Saddam is purported to have killed 5000 at Halbja but evidence suggest that between 50,000 and 180,000 were killed throughout the region.

www.hrw.org...

www.gendercide.org...

www.khrw.com...

www.xs4all.nl...

www.iraqwatch.org...

home.cogeco.ca...

www.geocities.com...


www.iraqfoundation.org...

www.globalsecurity.org...


"The genocide would have almost passed unnoticed by the outside world but thanks to the more than eighteen metric tons of official Iraqi documents, some four million in all, that the Kurds captured and had sent to the United States in the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War over Kuwait."


Although it is possible that Iran also used chemical weapons at Halabja, there is no doubt that Iraqi forces used them. There are many documented cases of Iraq using blister agents for years prior to Halabja. Reports seem to suggest that most civilian casualties suffered from mustard gas poisoning. This was not the preferred Iranian chemical weapon and some reports state that it was not until 1987 that Iran started developing small quantities of blister agents.

12.31.13.115...

www.sardasht.net...

Originally posted by Seekerof
5,000 give or take a few huh Satyr.....
Are you, in a sense, "forgiving" him or "excusing" him from this action, regardless of it being a war-time situation?

No. I just like to base our war making decisions upon fact. Not bold faced lies. It seems to be very easy to spread untrue rumors about people who don't speak english and/or control the media, doesn't it?

That's funny, Leveller, since I've read the exact opposite. Most of the victims appeared to be cyanide poisoned, not mustard gassed. No doubt Saddam is ruthless, but I seriously doubt it's as they say. One day, Saddam just said, "Hey, let's kill all the Kurds!" They were at war. Both Iran and Iraq used chemical warfare. It's damn near impossible to prove who killed who, especially when the entire thing is shrouded in bull# propaganda.

I find it very peculiar that many stories, outside the US, have many more details that were obviously avoided in our versions. Most of this can be attributed to the fact that we were the ones pumping warfare agents into their capable hands.

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by Satyr]

Good article.

It's always described as some sort of maniacal plot to murder some innocent Kurds. "I mean, he GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE! He's Satan incarnate!"

The reality of the situation is that it was a war and those Kurds were collateral damage, they were actually trying to kill Iranians.

I find it a little strange that the same people gasping and tutting at Halajba are the same ones who think that it's no problem at all to drop hundreds of huge bombs (Shock And Awe) on residential areas in, say, Baghdad.... It's okay to accidentally blow off a couple of hundred innocent limbs, but don't you dare even THINK of gassing anyone!

Interesting that Seeker would bring up, about the mass graves, of the thousands, "as well as Kurds killed in the post-1991 war uprisings against Saddam Hussein", because a lot of the mass graves found were due to the fact that the U.S. did nothing to protect the Shiites and Kurds during their uprisings after the Gulf War.

At the end of the Gulf War, the U.S. encouraged the Shiites in the south and the Kurds in the north to rebel, and they did... Both uprisings were brutally crushed, while the U.S. did nothing.

Quite the opposite, actually, because the ceasefire talks in Safwan, where the U.S. obviously had the chance to negotiate any settlement they wanted, on March 26, General Schwarzkopf agreed �not to shoot down any helicopters flying over the territory over Iraq where our troops are located.� So these same helicopter gunships bombed the crap out of the rebels.

There's a fascinating article from the Washington Post about it here :

www.fas.org...

They also let two major divisions of the Republican Guard escape just before the ceasefire.

Newsweek reported, �[t]he Republican Guard units at Basra, together with their tanks and helicopters, were in fact instrumental in the brutal suppression of the Shiite rebellion.� (The Day we Stopped the War, Newsweek, 1/20/1992, pp. 16-25)

Thousands were killed, and I'm sure they needed to be buried. You can blame Saddam and the US for those deaths, and mostly Saddam, but ask yourself, would you expect the US Army to kill a US paramilitary group that wanted to overthrow the US government?

I'm not saying Saddam Hussein was anything less than a tyrant, a murderer, and a powerhungry politician, but to portray him as a one-dimensional, international monster who massacred his own people all the time is just bloated propaganda. It's a narrow view.

People are usually far more complex than the caricature that gets painted by the news media and I'm fairly sure Saddam didn't hang around drooling and gnawing on carpets, plotting acts of death and carnage against the U.S.

But when you need to sell a war, you need to use what you can, and hope people don't ask too many questions.

j

Originally posted by Satyr
No doubt Saddam is ruthless, but I seriously doubt it's as they say. One day, Saddam just said, "Hey, let's kill all the Kurds!"

Unfortunately dude, that's just what he DID say.

The Anfal campaign is no secret. Saddam never tried to hide it. You could even find it in the Iraqi press at the time.
Take a look at the links I posted or just type "Anfal" into Google. There are pages and pages of independant verification.
And like I stated before - 18 tons of official Iraqi documentation regarding the campaign.

That's the same incident I was referring to, apparently. 1988 is when the Halabja incident occurred. It seems we're both referring to the same thing. That's just the codename. There is no admission of purposeful intention, as far as I've found. Of course, all propaganda with a mission will state otherwise. Show me your proof. I'm not dead set on this either way. I only believe that people shouldn't be misled.

www.opendemocracy.net...

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by Satyr]

Yes Satyr........its all, what you call it again...."propaganda?
"As of this date, there are more than 200 mass gravesites in Iraq. Some estimates place the number of victims of the regime at 300,000 to one million."

I guess those numbers are "propaganda" too? Try looking beyond your term usage of "lie"....
You concentrate on "Halabja" and ignore the obvious....thats not a "lie"...thats denial...
How about explain "propaganda" to those who he has killed, murdered, tortured to death.....
How about goto all the multitude of prganizations, not just US, that have documented these proofs and tell them its all "lies" and "propaganda"...ask them about Halabja and see what they say....
Goto the Kurds and tell them that they are a "lie" and that they are spewing "propaganda" and see if you walk back out alive.....
Its all perception and "seeing" only what you wish and want to see, isn't it?
You stick with the topic of 5,000 Kurds and Halabja and defend how Saddam didn't do it while ignoring and falling into those 200+ mass graves....
Projected numbers of almost one million people murdered, etc., out of a population of 22 million and you target only 5,000 Kurds that both, Iraq/Saddam and Iran, gassed in their little Iran/Iraq war.....
Hey....no matter though...this world is a "lie" and its all "propaganda"......bet on it.


regards
seekerof

I never denied that people were killed. People are always killed in wars.

Whatever man. Just put your blinders back on and look forward. Sing your don't worry, be happy song. Put another load of brains in the washing machine.

Yes....I continue to look forward.....
at all those 200+ mass gravesites and to those 300,000 to one million victims.....
Yes....I continue to look at those official documents listing the untold and unspoken of astrocities that he has committed and hardly ever mentioned on this site....
Yes....I continue to look forward.....to more unearthing of more gravesites and more victims.....
Sing? Far from it...I mourn what humanity has become and ignores......
Bush, "lies", "propaganda", oil, PNAC, and etc......yet, its amazing how NO ONE barely discusses the astrocites that he has committed. Are you anti-war, anti-Bush folks so dead set on removing Bush that you obviously and purposely continue to ignore the obvious? But when it is brought forth, you defend with "lies" and "propaganda".......
How can one be so "defending" of Iraq/Saddam when it comes to Halabja, yet not give a rats azz and simply ignore the obvious.....?
What of the mass gravesite found recently that had the remains of 1400 children in it, some still clutching at their dolls, who were horribly executed and whose rotting corpses sit in a mass grave, courtesy of "the man" himself......?
Where were you when discussions regarding Yugoslavia and Milosevic and his genecide was happening and had happened? Would this also be ignored?
You people sit back and use the defense of the "Body Count Scroller: www.djf.net... and yell and scream at the deaths being committed since the US has been in Iraq....yet, STILL ignore the obvious.....still do not mention what this man has done!
Yes.....I continue to look forward....and I am saddened at the obvious hatred and obvious denial that folks continue to use just to justify their contempt of Bush, etc.......
Horse-blinders are a wonderful thing, aren't they? They help you to ignore the obvious and allow you to stay focused on your intended target.....


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 19-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Man, you're a lost cause. If these million or so bodies are so "obvious", why can't I find any reports on these mass murders? I suppose you have those documents in your back pocket, the way you talk about them. I've already asked to be directed to these docs so I can judge for myself. I've yet to see anything beyond the 5000 dead, which happened during exchange with Iranian soldiers during their war. Where is it? If it's so well known and "obvious", you should have absolutely no problem directing me to a page or two, right? And pages that hold some respectability. We don't need any Weekly World News bull#, of course. I'm still waiting.

Also, why didn't we care while this was happening? We sure care now, don't we? Or do we?

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by Satyr]

Ok, I take that back. I've found several rather vague references to 200,000 missing and assumed dead. But, none of them seem to include any investigation details. These are all in speculation format, as far as I've seen.

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by Satyr]

I've also found things like this...

news.bbc.co.uk...

...but not much official mention of 300,000+ Kurds who were gassed.

BTW, Saddam isn't the only monster. Did you see that special on the Iraqi prisoners who were shot in the containers they were transported in? Some were even left in the desert to roast to death. These operations were supposedly all overseen by our wonderful humanitarian military.

Did we dig individual graves for the Iraqis the US killed in the war of liberation? That number is getting up there now, isn't it?

We'll show that Saddam! He killed his own people, so we'll kill them too!!! Is that how it works?

What about the Kurds we abandoned? We were responsible for many of their deaths. They sure as hell don't see us as their saviors, that's for sure. Not many Iraqis do.

Basically, I'm saying that this is just one more big excuse to justify a war that we shouldn't be in. It was Osama and Al Qaeda, remember? They're not in Iraq, and neither is Saddam, anymore. So, why are we still there killing Iraqis? Does that really make sense to you?

We are all dying, some of us just faster than others.

[Edited on 11-19-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
That's the same incident I was referring to, apparently. 1988 is when the Halabja incident occurred. It seems we're both referring to the same thing. That's just the codename. There is no admission of purposeful intention, as far as I've found. Of course, all propaganda with a mission will state otherwise. Show me your proof. I'm not dead set on this either way. I only believe that people shouldn't be misled.

No dude. Anfal wasn't a single operation against Halabja. It was a campaign that took place all over Northern Iraq over a long time period.
As for proof? As I stated before - it was no secret. You can find plenty of evidence in the links that I posted or find literally thousands of pages on the web.

By the way - I can't understand why you are having a go at Seekerof: "If these million or so bodies are so "obvious", why can't I find any reports on these mass murders?"
Dude, you obviously aren't looking hard enough. Seekerof probably didn't post a link to this because it's not a secret and not hard to find. Just type "mass graves Iraq" into your search engine and you will come up with another thousand pages of evidence.

There is no secret. Saddam never hid it.

does it really matter who did it, if it was hussein it was hussein, if not then not. The point i want to make is that wheter he did it or not, is this a reason for war against irak, would be stupid i think cause who bommed nagasaki, hiroshima ? True, the states, should japan now invade the usa cause of this ? People who say the war in irak is justified because of reasons like this also say that japan has the right to invade the usa...

What is so funny all the time is that facts are ignored when it contradicts one's opinion.

Does anyone care to mention the 100.000's of deaths by American Sanctions ? Depleted Uranium ? Rockets ? Blown up chemical factories and the results of that polution ?

All some of you care about is what Saddam did or what he didn't. That's why this world will never be a peaceful place to live, humans are tooo dumb to understand some simple things in life. I think it's very easy to write something and put it on the net, but can we verify that ? No we can't. Look at some countries in Africa, peoples die daily, but do we care ? No we don't because we don't hear anything about it. But Saddam, that's all we can talk about.. he's the one to blame for everything right ?

And does that justify our violence and killings ? Yes we are clean because our opinion and feelings is all that counts...

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by TigeriS]

The thread was created to cast doubt over Saddam's actions against the Kurds.
When it is proven that Saddam actually waged a thorough campaign, the cry goes up that it doesn't matter anyway if he did.

Hypocrites.

Originally posted by Leveller
The thread was created to cast doubt over Saddam's actions against the Kurds.
When it is proven that Saddam actually waged a thorough campaign, the cry goes up that it doesn't matter anyway if he did.

Hypocrites.

turn it around, if it doesnt matter then why bother porve it right or wrong :]..and what has it to do with Hypocrites ? Dont like whats being said but cant argue, i dont know

Originally posted by jozuph


turn it around, if it doesnt matter then why bother porve it right or wrong :]..and what has it to do with Hypocrites ? Dont like whats being said but cant argue, i dont know

What do you mean why bother?
If somebody states something that you think is wrong, isn't trying to correct it the only right thing to do?
I don't like what is said but can't argue?

Have you actually read this thread? Or read any of the links?
Let me just make things plainer for you: The thread started with an accusation that Saddam might not have gassed Kurds. There is then a rebuttal to this theory.

Now as far as I know that is the whole point of ATS - people discuss theories.

I've heard a lot of bull# statements on this forum but your is close to the top.

Originally posted by Leveller
The thread was created to cast doubt over Saddam's actions against the Kurds.
When it is proven that Saddam actually waged a thorough campaign, the cry goes up that it doesn't matter anyway if he did.

Hypocrites.

Amen....
"History Lesson"
Link:
www.wadinet.de...

"Kurdish History"
Link:
qasim29.tripod.com...

"Saddam Hussein"
Link:
www.moreorless.au.com...

Reports here that the numbers may be close to two million.....again, out of a population of roughly 22 million....unprecedented.

"Iraq Human Rights News"
Link:
www.irag.org.uk...

Personally, whether it is Halabja or the Anfal campaign, the discussion will always head towrds 'protecting' this madman then crucifying him!
But, as par, this gets twisted to "Bush's" fault.....US made Saddam.....Neocon for oil.....etc., etc., etc.....and freakin' etc.! AND STILL no one brings up the atrocities this man has committed, instead, they defend it and him............"it's all 'lies' and 'propaganda' used to 'justify' the war"........................
The UN and NATO didn't need much justification when they took on Milosevic, etc.......hey....wasn't no problem when the world took on the Axis and Germany...with six million plus Jews, etc. victims...........
Oppss, thats right, there was no PNAC or "OIL" or NO President Bush, ETC!
People continue to ignore the obvious and this day and time, seek to defend it and then use "lies" and "propaganda" as a defense when they are confronted with REALITY!.......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Leveller
The thread was created to cast doubt over Saddam's actions against the Kurds.
When it is proven that Saddam actually waged a thorough campaign, the cry goes up that it doesn't matter anyway if he did.

Hypocrites.

maybe read your own post first here instead of shouting..doesnt it say : When it is proven that Saddam actually waged a thorough campaign, the cry goes up that it doesn't matter anyway if he did-----
so i said, if it doesnt matter then why bother prove it right or wrong ......