If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Originally posted by mOjOm

Originally posted by jozuph
did u know that in the netherlands gay people can marry mojom ??? yess they can...and iam proud that iam from there...which doesnt mean that in the netherlands nobody believes in god..come on, religion should be taken less serious, ok to believe but dont build a country on it or to say it better, dont make others suffer from your believes..like i always say "]

Huh????? Suffer from MY beliefs???? I'm not against Gay Marriage or anything else they want to do. Maybe you should read my post again a little slower. I support the choice of EVERYBODY to live as they want, as long as it doesn't conflict with anyone else's Choice in Living.

I think it's great that in the Neatherlands Gays can Marry without any Hassle from Gov. or Churches. Obviously the Neatherlands understands the meaning of "Equal Rights and Pursuit of Life Liberty and Happiness". It should be the same here IMO, and the fact that it isn't sucks big time since America once stood for Freedom, or so I'm told. My post wasn't about oppressing anyone. It's about reminding people, Gay or otherwise, that Governments and Churches DO NOT and SHOULD NOT be of any concern when it comes to things like Marriage or Lifestyle choices. I thought I made that clear......I urge you to read it again and hope you understand the difference.

mojom sorry, i always read your posts with the most respect and time..the only thing referring to your post was the fact about the gay marriage in the netherland..the rest was not towards you but just me saying some thing to everybody...

ps yeah i know my use of the word you...can be better, in this case, you = people who believe and act like i described :]]]]

[Edited on 16-12-2003 by jozuph]

[Edited on 16-12-2003 by jozuph]

Even as a Christian, I do believe people are born gay. I don't understand why. Only God can change that. The person can't.

And it is an activity one chooses to engage in. It's unfortunate, but I don't think many straight people are able to understand and empithize with the difficulty of it. People can be very hateful for no good reason.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
To answer the original question... According to the Bible..

According to the old testament, scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is "an abomination to the Lord." It is described as unnatural. Not what He intended.

Interestingly, in the new testament, Jesus of all people never mentions it. If you study the Apostle Paul - who was chosen to break down the teachings and applications to the fledging church - according to the new covenant - it becomes clear that ANYONE engaging in sex OUTSIDE of marriage is engaging in sin.

Personally, I do not think God hates homosexuals expressly. I think He hates sin wherever sin is found. And all humans sin, according to the word of God. Homosexuals who choose celibacy as a matter of obedience to God are as pleasing to God as any heterosexual.

I love what my mother always says: Love the sinner, hate the sin. And God knows, we all fall short.

Garon,

I posted this in answer to the original question. It is an interpretation of the scriptures. I hope you don't think that I am trying to shove anything down your throat. It was merely in answer to question, as I said before.

This is not what I say - it's what the bible says. It's up to every individual to believe what they want to believe. I hope it helps somebody to understand - the Christian perspective. I cannot speak for any other religion.

I didn't think that at all, my friend.

As for Jackal....well....I read a quote in a book once: "Ignorance is not innocence but sin." You can choose not to act on your desires but that doesn't mean the desires aren't there. You can life a life of self-hatred and isolation or you can accept yourself for who you are and live your life. You've always been who you are. Whether you try to bury that or ignore it or do whatever to make it different.. It isn't and all that will lead to is misery. Be who you are and love yourself. Thats all I can say about that.

Originally posted by Garon

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
To answer the original question... According to the Bible..

According to the old testament, scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is "an abomination to the Lord." It is described as unnatural. Not what He intended.

Interestingly, in the new testament, Jesus of all people never mentions it. If you study the Apostle Paul - who was chosen to break down the teachings and applications to the fledging church - according to the new covenant - it becomes clear that ANYONE engaging in sex OUTSIDE of marriage is engaging in sin.

Personally, I do not think God hates homosexuals expressly. I think He hates sin wherever sin is found. And all humans sin, according to the word of God. Homosexuals who choose celibacy as a matter of obedience to God are as pleasing to God as any heterosexual.

I love what my mother always says: Love the sinner, hate the sin. And God knows, we all fall short.

Garon,

I posted this in answer to the original question. It is an interpretation of the scriptures. I hope you don't think that I am trying to shove anything down your throat. It was merely in answer to question, as I said before.

This is not what I say - it's what the bible says. It's up to every individual to believe what they want to believe. I hope it helps somebody to understand - the Christian perspective. I cannot speak for any other religion.

I didn't think that at all, my friend.

As for Jackal....well....I read a quote in a book once: "Ignorance is not innocence but sin." You can choose not to act on your desires but that doesn't mean the desires aren't there. You can life a life of self-hatred and isolation or you can accept yourself for who you are and live your life. You've always been who you are. Whether you try to bury that or ignore it or do whatever to make it different.. It isn't and all that will lead to is misery. Be who you are and love yourself. Thats all I can say about that.

Whats amazing is I am not Miserable. I am very attracted to men much more than women but yet I have married and had 2 beautiful Children and could not be happier. I love myself for who I am and would not change a thing even though I have been through some rough times in my life.

Let me put it this way there is no way I would trade what I have now to be with someone I am attracted to. Attraction does not make you happy.

Originally posted by Garon
[quote
I didn't think that at all, my friend.

As for Jackal....well....I read a quote in a book once: "Ignorance is not innocence but sin." You can choose not to act on your desires but that doesn't mean the desires aren't there. You can life a life of self-hatred and isolation or you can accept yourself for who you are and live your life. You've always been who you are. Whether you try to bury that or ignore it or do whatever to make it different.. It isn't and all that will lead to is misery. Be who you are and love yourself. Thats all I can say about that.

Not bad advice, Garon. Glad we're cool.

Originally posted by BlackJackal

Originally posted by Garon

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
To answer the original question... According to the Bible..

According to the old testament, scriptures clearly state that homosexuality is "an abomination to the Lord." It is described as unnatural. Not what He intended.

Interestingly, in the new testament, Jesus of all people never mentions it. If you study the Apostle Paul - who was chosen to break down the teachings and applications to the fledging church - according to the new covenant - it becomes clear that ANYONE engaging in sex OUTSIDE of marriage is engaging in sin.

Personally, I do not think God hates homosexuals expressly. I think He hates sin wherever sin is found. And all humans sin, according to the word of God. Homosexuals who choose celibacy as a matter of obedience to God are as pleasing to God as any heterosexual.

I love what my mother always says: Love the sinner, hate the sin. And God knows, we all fall short.

Garon,

I posted this in answer to the original question. It is an interpretation of the scriptures. I hope you don't think that I am trying to shove anything down your throat. It was merely in answer to question, as I said before.

This is not what I say - it's what the bible says. It's up to every individual to believe what they want to believe. I hope it helps somebody to understand - the Christian perspective. I cannot speak for any other religion.

I didn't think that at all, my friend.

As for Jackal....well....I read a quote in a book once: "Ignorance is not innocence but sin." You can choose not to act on your desires but that doesn't mean the desires aren't there. You can life a life of self-hatred and isolation or you can accept yourself for who you are and live your life. You've always been who you are. Whether you try to bury that or ignore it or do whatever to make it different.. It isn't and all that will lead to is misery. Be who you are and love yourself. Thats all I can say about that.

Whats amazing is I am not Miserable. I am very attracted to men much more than women but yet I have married and had 2 beautiful Children and could not be happier. I love myself for who I am and would not change a thing even though I have been through some rough times in my life.

Let me put it this way there is no way I would trade what I have now to be with someone I am attracted to. Attraction does not make you happy.

Okay. I wish you the best and I am glad you have happiness.

Originally posted by jozuph
mojom sorry, i always read your posts with the most respect and time..the only thing referring to your post was the fact about the gay marriage in the netherland..the rest was not towards you but just me saying some thing to everybody...

ps yeah i know my use of the word you...can be better, in this case, you = people who believe and act like i described :]]]]

[Edited on 16-12-2003 by jozuph]

[Edited on 16-12-2003 by jozuph]

Good deal!! I'm glad that's cleared up for both of us.
I guess I misunderstood your post a bit. Just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page. It's all good man!

Wow this turned out to be a deep thread.
My last coment on this topic:
We may never know whats right in the eyes of god but we should alway try to live our lives to the fullest and be ourselves, real happines can only be found through self acceptation.
Respect yourselve and others, i'm sure this wont be wrong in the eyes of god.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
[What is the difference between a pedophiles and people who are gay? Both have sexual desires that are not normal and in order to be gay or a pedophile you must act on those desires. The only difference between a pedophile and a person who is gay is that gays have willing partners. A pedophile is charged and locked away but if you are gay you are to be accepted no questions asked because you can't help it.

Are you trying to come across as blindly ignorant, or do you really not know the difference between a sexual act between CONSENTING adults, and a sexual assault against an innocent child? The canyon dividing these two actions from each other is immense!

In one case a grown-up individual makes a personal decision, that doesn't concern or effect anyone but him, about who, when, and how he wants to have sex with another consenting grown-up.

In the other, a grown man or woman forces themselves on a child that does not have the strength to fight them off , nor the full understanding of what the person hurting them is doing to them. To rip a child's innocence and trust from them, is the most heinous and unforgivable offense that a person can do to another.

It is a matter of desire not a matter of "I am born with it and there is nothing that I can do about it". There are people born into this world that have all sorts of desires that fight them on a daily basis. For Example scientific research has proven that roughly 40% of americans have a chemical imbalance that causes them to overeat (If you would like links I am sure I can find them). These people fight the desire to eat every day. It feels right to continue eating but they have to fight that desire every day of their lives and there are many of them that have overcome the desire and live free from the desire now. What makes a certain man's desire to be with another man any different?

So you agree that homosexuality may be inborn, but believe that a person born gay should fight that urge and deprive himself/herself of the chance to meet someone, fall in love, and experience what it is like to be intimate with someone to whom they are attracted? In case you haven't noticed, mankind's sex drive is one of the most powerful urges we were created with. It ranks up there with our need to love and be loved, and our need to acquire the basic necessities to survive. The act of homosexual sex, especially amongst women, is not dangerous to anyone. The only example of it being detrimental to those engaging in homosexual sex, is the greater risk of contracting a disease. This, however, is more a result of promiscuity and carelessness, than of being gay. Heterosexuals are just as guilty of being sexually promiscuous, and STD's are now just as prominent in the straight community, as in the gay community. Maybe, instead of making gay people out to be the villains, we should focus on the real issue of indiscriminate sexual practices amongst both the gay and straight communities.

Alright lets say we give gay's the right to marriage. What's next? Next gay couples will be wanting to adobt children to raise them as there own. This is as wrong as wrong can be because no child should be raised by a single mother or a single father because studies have shown that children do much better when they have a mother and a father. Children should not be adopted and placed into a family that consists of two men or two women because that child did not ask to be put into that situation.

Children never ask to be put in ANY situation. They are born into whatever life their parents choose to provide them. Considering the fact that roughly 50% of kids (if not more), already grow up in single parent homes, and many of them are used as leverage between their 2 divorced parents, I think that anyone who makes the conscious decision to take an unwanted child into their home, to give it love and support, and to be the family that it's biological parents chose not to be, is great. To be raised by someone who chose to devote their life to a kid's upbringing and happiness is a benefit many children never experience. So many children are abused, physically, mentally, and sexually by their demented, biological, and/or step, families and "friends" every day that it almost seems like an epidemic. A little girl in Atlanta, a few weeks back, was hog-tied and thrown in her garage with no food, water, bed, or toilet. She was then beaten to death by her father and step-mom over the course several days. A couple years back my boyfriend helped a forensic dentist with a case involving a year old baby that had been bitten over it's ENTIRE body by it's mother and father. The pictures I saw of his little body were too much for me to even look at. I also have known several women that admit to having been molested as children, either by their dads, brothers, or family "friends". So, don't tell me that a child being raised by 2 women or 2 men, who loves him/her, is at any more of a risk than the straight people's kid, just because his/her parents are gay. At least gay couples had to make the choice to have a child, rather than just popping out one unplanned, unwanted, and unloved kid after another.

But you can't argue with the fact that the nature of all sexual life is a mother and a father not a 2 mothers or 2 fathers. Gay's with children is simply wrong and should not happen. If someone cares to act on there sexual desires in the privacy of their own home thats fine with me but don't bring innocent children into it.

Actually, procreation is all that requires a male and female, not parenthood. Nature's way of parenting is often abandonment or non-involvement by the father, and being raised by the mother, being raised by the animal's community as a whole, or sometimes even being eaten by one's parents as a sort of natural selection. Do you advocate these parenting techniques? They are all supported by nature, as well.

Do you assume that gay parents are having sex in the presence of their children? What makes you think that a gay couple would not be just as discreet about sexual intimacy as a straight couple? Most people I have known, gay and straight, would never want to be caught "doing it" by their child. Personally, my parents room was right next to mine when I was about 12 or 13, and we had VERY thin walls. The sound of my folks going at it at night, was enough to warp any young girl's mind, but I knew that they would be mortified if I told them about how loud they were, so I put a pillow over my head and kept my mouth shut. At least, they were frisky still, instead of frigid.

Someone who is gay can just as easily be straight just like someone who is straight can be gay. Acting on sexual desires should not give anyone the right to be recongnized as a minority with all the perks that come along with the title.

The only reason they have to seek minority status, is because of other people's prejudice and discrimination against anyone that does not share their same desire for the opposite sex. No one should ever be treated as inferior or persecuted because of their personal life, if they are not harming anyone else, or because they are attracted to someone else with a p*nis instead of a v*gina (or vice-versa).
Where does anyone get off proclaiming that the sexual orientation that God made someone else with, is a justifiable cause for us humans to judge them . I rather doubt that an infallible, infinite Creator, somehow made a "uh-oh" and inadvertently cause some men and women to be born with the wrong sexual orientation!

I suppose I am evil. I am evil because I do not accept anyone acting on a desire that they can easily not act upon. I am evil because I tell it like it is. I am evil because I too have the desire to be gay but guess what? For twenty three years I have beaten it. So don't sit there and yell at me I am born with it and there is nothing I can do about it.

So then, it is easy for your to pretend you are not gay? You never feel sad or lonely for a loving touch (not sexual, just romantic) or kiss of someone to whom you are genuinely attracted? I don't think that I could ever just not be straight. I love the male gender too much! I love the strength and warmth that my boyfreind has. I love the natural virility that he represents. If someone tried to tell me that it was not right to be straight, I guess I would just have to be wrong. I would never choose to suppress the natural instincts that I have had since birth, just because someone else thinks that they know what God wants for me, better than I do. Women are sexually drawn to men, and men to women, largely because of the pheromones that they produce. It acts like catnip for cats. If a man is sexually attracted the natural scent of another man, then who is to say it is not a natural thing for him to be gay? Presumably, he was conceived thru a natural union, developed in the natural fashion, within his mother's womb, and was born the same way as all other babies are born. So what is so UN-natural about him?

I have an inborn disgust, and have since I was a toddler, for those that say all animals are beneath humans and no not warrant our respect or care, but many people believe that humans are "naturally" superior to all other creatures and they are only here for our benefit, to use and/or eat. Based on the definition people use for what is natural, it could be said that I have an un-natural affinity for animals, especially since I would rather be around them then other people. But I am not un-natural, because I am true to my own nature, not the nature dictated to me by others.

We are all humans and we all have something about us that someone else thinks is bad or wrong. What matters is that we find peace with ourselves, learn to love ourselves for who we are (not what others want us to be), love and respect others as we would ourselves and understand that we are all a part of the same Spirit. Our bodies will die, and our physical needs and desires will die along with them, but our spirit is pure. Once it escapes it's temporary cage, it will return to the Whole Spirit that is in everything, and exists everywhere. Life is far to short, to spend pointing out the faults of others. If there is a God that wants to judge us in the end, let Him decide which of us He wants to condemn. It's not up to us anyways. We should be looking for their positive attributes and trying to learn from each other. Otherwise, it was all just a big waste of the time, that we should have been using to appreciate the beauty and mystery of all that surrounds us

::applause::

My hat is off to you yet again. You have said clearly and accruately what I was too angry to put into words. Another brilliant post!! Thank you!!

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem

quite the contrary I AM NOT LEADING AN ASSAULT, BUT A DEFENSE TO STAND AGAINST THIS COMMUNISTIC/ PERVERTED IDEAL! (no marriage, no sex, no family)
THE GAY MILITANTS LED THE ASSAULT! AND THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE OVER!

I REALLY DONT CARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS BUT
I WILL STAND AND DEFEND GOD,LIBERTY, MARRIAGE, AND THE MOST SACRED, THE FAMILY!

Ok. It is VERY VERY rare that I get involved with topics such as these*. (*topics on whether or not a certain lifestyle/view is right) but today, I think i'll toss in my .02

Most christians that I know usually believe in one form, or another that God/Jesus is in charge of all things happening in the universe. God/Jesus has it all under control, and is omnipresent, all loving, and knows everything. "God lets all things happen for a reason, and sometimes god works in mysterious ways." Is something I've heard in the past. Anyhow... how does that above saying differ in anyway to the subject of homosexuals? If God knows all things, and has everything undercontrol, then certainly he is aware of the ammount, and status of homosexuals on the earth. So why fear, or hold any ill will towards them. Why do you fear them? If God allows all things to happen for a reason, if God is indeed in control of the situation, if God is as powerful as christians make him out to be, than why be so fearful, and hateful, surely he knows whats up, he is in control. For all you know... homosexuality can be part of a cycle that is present to curb overpopulation. (Just a stab in the dark.) You're fear of homosexuals really just shows a lack of understanding of your own scriptures, as well as you're lack of faith in your god.

In response to the quote above as well. The person in subject claims to; "stand up for liberty, marriage, and the most sacred: family."

Well... do those three words (liberty, marriage, and family) only apply to heteros only? What about the freedom (liberty) for a person to choose if he wants to be a homosexual or not. Surely that is his choice, and by God, he is free to make the decision on his own. What about 2 homosexuals that wish to get married, should this priveledge be taken away from them, simply because they're homosexual? As far as family... the same question for marriage can be put in place. Should homosexuals be denied the right to raise a loving family? It seems that you really do fight for "liberty, marriage, and the most sacred: family" just as long as the liberty, marriage, and family concept you speak of, fall under you, and your Gods standards.

Next topic on my list is the "homosexual militants". Once the 3rd brigade of the United Homosexual Forces of America stop their bombing runs on my town, i'll post a good response to thise one.

I myself, am not a homosexual (I am happily taken by one of the sweetest girls I know), but I am armed with an open mind, and loving arms to anyone, no matter what their color, sexual prefrence, gender, or race is, whether they be human, ant, or ardvark. Universal love is what its all about. The same "Unconditional love" that your god speaks of. If we could all spread just a little bit more love, the world would be a better place. (not that type of love either you perv!)

Just as ZeroDeep said earlier with the apples. Under the skin they are all the same.

[Edited on 16-12-2003 by oui]

Thanks for that Oui. Nice job.

Ok, this is all just stupid in my eyes. Why did someone bring up the topic of gay being "evil" because it says some things in the bible. The bible was written by man and so was almost every other religious book. Add to the fact, before Chritianity came around to Greece, the men used to conduct in homosexual acts. This also occured in Egypt, and no doubt in other cultures. I see it this way, your sould has no gender, so why worry about what gender your in love with. Isn't love suppose to be the purest thing in existence? I'm just sorta sick of people bringing these topics up about Islam being evil, gays being evil...and all that. If I was the religion I am now I would have been burnt to the stake if this was the 'Burning Times', meh I shouldn't have even brought that up cause now people are going to start quoteing the bible on that too...

I think Gay guys are great

leaves more women for me

Originally posted by Amuk
I think Gay guys are great

leaves more women for me

Move to San Francisco.

Homosexaulity has no logic whats so ever, its like they've been mind controled, mabe their DNA has been modifed for testing purposes.

To each their own...

Live it.. breathe it

Man, this thread is huge!

Don't know if this has already been posted, but I'd like to point out First Corinthians 6:9:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10...will inherit the kingdom of God.

dont know if this has been said read the first few pages, and then gave up but here is my 2cents and have in my mind proven the theory why god cannot accept gays nor can they be born gay.

Noah and the ark, and soddom and gamorah (excuse spelling)...were all dissasters god had created upon man becuz of the sexual perversion man had came upon. Not just the perversion of the same sex, but the perversion of man and animal, of man and child, the perversions you see on some porn sites, or in the courtroom.

If god made man or woman gay from birth, then the soul choosen from the hall of souls (revelation) to occupy that body was gay, and since it was gay, god knowingly and willingly put a gay soul into a pure body, giving the body not only original sin (baptising takes care of that) but also "known sin", and since a child that is not taught right from wrong as of yet has that, it also violates gods will for children. Now since god in a sense has killed for their wrong during noah and soddom, bringing judgement upon them, he would then be murdering the people since he did not give them free will. And hence he murdered these people in cold blood god is no longer perfect and if god is no longer perfect how can he be god nor in heaven.

in other words god cannot make you gay when born cannot accept gays or he will be performing premeditated murder, which is wrong and is committing the act of murder, making him no longer holy.

gays are wrong in my belief it is not for me to judge them here on earth that will be done at the gates of heaven or purgatory which ever you believe in first, so i let them be, but i do ask of those that are gay and those that i do work with or know from friends, to not bring their unclean life style into mine or my familys.

oh, monkeys are the only other animal species to perfrom sex for pleasure, and they are also the only known species to have a gay relationship out of pleasure and IT IS KNOWN FOR A FACT THAT THE AIDS VIRUS, was begot from a monkey, right there showing gods will and vengance for those who not only partake in unclean sex but sex before companionship (i say that becuz i believe one can be married in heart before one is married on paper)

This thread is totally pathetic.