How Not To Be Banned From ATS...

reply to post by CherubBaby






Ive actually been here since late 07 or 08.. cant recall! Its not hard not to be banned and I wasnt banned.. I just made another acct when we moved. Pretty much, if you are a civilized adult, staying here is pretty darned easy.
As for your thread... I made a few jokes, but I wasnt ridiculing you. I dont agree that the moon has flipped over as there are several explanations for what you saw, but yes.. I also saw some nastiness on that thread that you didnt deserve.When you are among a whole rainbow of people/personalities youre bound to get! Dont be discouraged though from making threads or being involved in more heated conversations.. its a learning process concerning how to present your evidence.. and how to either ignore idiots or consider alternate opinions even when you dont want to. You really dont seem to be a bad poster to me and I didnt personally see you behave in any bad way or use any abusive speech.. but I didnt stay there all night last night! People repeat the thick skin thing, and its true unfortunately. Have a thick skin.. but dont be bullheaded if you are presented with alternate explanations for things.
I personally like you and hope that this little episode doesnt sour you on ATS or the posters. Hey, Im not anyone special.. but you have one "friend" in me even if I disagree!

Upside Down

reply to post by CherubBaby

I've reviewed your complaints, we discussed this via private message and, as I mentioned, I subscribed to the thread and am (slowly, we're talking 13 pages so far) catching up while juggling a few other things both on- and offline, but...

Board Business & Questions: This forums should be used to post questions regarding site policies, problems with site functionality/features, and respond to announcements from ownership. This is not a place to post complaints.

We should be able to work this out via PMs and in the thread in question, and as always, if you see a post that violates the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use, please don't hesitate to ALERT it, whether it's made by a moderator or anyone else.

But this really isn't the thread or the forum for resolving specific complaints, and I hope you can respect that.

reply to post by Majic


Pew! (sigh of relief)! You are a master at justification and now that I am all in the clear for posting slightly pearshape response to appleshaped OP I can go back and star and flag as an informed memeber of ATS forum which has me ever so slightly hooked.

Thanx for your reply.

I'm curious as to if anyone has ever been un-banned. Also if one is banned, do they loose all access to their account including private messages. I don't imagine they could reply but can they still read them or read posts on threads. Just wondering

I avoid being banned by ATS due to my illegal trafficking in alien blood-products that the mods need in order to pass for human.

So I can get away with more stuff. One false step, and *bam* the mods will be exposed.

Banned Of Brothers

Originally posted by maybee
I'm curious as to if anyone has ever been un-banned. Also if one is banned, do they loose all access to their account including private messages. I don't imagine they could reply but can they still read them or read posts on threads. Just wondering

There are two kinds of bans: post bans and account bans.

Post bans are temporary suspensions of posting privileges. Post-banned members can still log in, they just can't post. We use those to stop problem behavior (such as spamming, reposting things we remove or publicly arguing with mods when we ask people to stay on topic), get a member's attention and (hopefully) work things out via private message. By nature, they are temporary, but there's no time limit: they stay in place until we come to agreement, which can take a long time if our PMs are ignored (as they so often are).

Account bans or "permabans" disable the ability to log in to an account, remove avatars and custom elements from public mini-profiles and are our last resort when we can't work things out. While we may apply these immediately in some cases, such as spamming, porn, hoaxing, threats of any kind against anyone, people that curse us out or otherwise give us grief for enforcing the terms & conditions and so on, we usually try to work things out first.

We specifically try to avoid permabanning people for honest mistakes or having a bad day once in a while. We will usually apply a post ban and give members another shot first, and in some cases, we may actually go through that process more than once. While it's certainly not impossible to be permabanned, it's generally harder than most people might think. We really do consider it a last resort, and strongly prefer to resolve differences amicably wherever possible.

On that note, we do occasionally restore "permanently" banned accounts, but it's rare. Banned members may request reinstatement via our contact page, and if we believe they really are sincere and aren't likely to be banned again, we may give them another chance.

Also, sometimes banned members return and register new accounts. While we don't officially condone that, we don't specifically look for it either. Sometimes such members head straight back to the thread they last participated in, continue doing what got them banned in the first place and get banned again. A few lost souls make a habit of it, which is ironic because if they simply stopped being jerks, they could probably participate all they want without further problems.

ATSers are people from all over the world who share their opinions -- often very strong opinions -- about all sorts of controversial and emotionally-charged subjects. The only thing that makes it possible is courtesy.

Alternatives such as name-calling, flaming and trolling are irritating, but ultimately their greatest offense is that they are boring. People interested in a given topic couldn't care less about what people think about each other. They didn't come here for that.

Rather, as Bill pointed out almost five years ago when he started this thread, by simply being polite, members gain the "keys to the kingdom". Our best members understand that, and the vast majority never run afoul of the mods.

Ideally, none would. Then we could slack off and focus on being members like everyone else.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded (as usual), but I hope that answers your questions.

OK one more question if that's alright. Do you ever ban someone when they're off-line like if it's night time in their country and they're in bed and then just wake up the next morning and find out they're banned. Respectfully submitted. Thank you.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Thanks for this post, It inspired me in ways not directly related to ATS.
It also inspired me to write an apology directed to you SkepticOverlord.
Whatever the outcome will be, I consider it a learning experience.
Thanks!

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


When it comes to maintaining websites I am a total dinosaur. So, if this next comment is beyond ridiculous it's okay to just ignore it:

I think you are making changes to the site in order to save on space(?) or bandwith, or whatever. Anyway, why are one-line comments frowned upon? Just seems this forces members to write more than they really want to, and doesn't this take up more space?

reply to post by jiggerj

One-liners are fine if they have content.
It's one-liners without content that aren't welcome, because if there's no content, why post at all?
If you ever went to a forum where you see six posts in a row that say "I agree", it's not very interesting to read, is it?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by jiggerj

 

One-liners are fine if they have content.
It's one-liners without content that aren't welcome, because if there's no content, why post at all?
If you ever went to a forum where you see six posts in a row that say "I agree", it's not very interesting to read, is it?

True on that account, but sometimes a post is so dead-on or beyond hilarious that I just want to acknowledge it with more than just a star. Ten thumbs up or five laughing smileys.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

I shall keep this in mind in my posts. I would hate to offend anyone. Although you can never make anyone happy. One person may be offended by not being allowed to say something offensive to someone else.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Read through this thread and I would like to say the more I learn about the ATS staff the more I like them. One can not help but notice this is a fairly polite and well moderated site!

Many thanks!

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

No one is ever banned from ATS for their opinions, ideas, connections, or theories. Everyone is always banned for simply not being able to politely function in the environment we've created.

I need to comment on this. Mod censorship of opinions occur. It happened to me the other day and was deemed as "hate speech" which is entirely incorrect, and put 1 strike against me. Any subsequent opinions along the same line would still be deemed inappropriate and possibly warrant additional strikes which eventually would lead to a ban.

Here's is the problem. Whilst moderators claim there is a consensus among staff and have a 'board' to refer to regarding dialog with members and mods, so each mod can determine for themselves, this doesn't eliminate personal bias among moderators. All you need is a few prejudice mods and a strong dose of bias and that's it, banned.

What it comes down to is, speaking your mind without 'directly' saying anything. Fill in the paragraphs with verbal fluff, some on-point comments, hidden among slander, insults and ridicule. It's an art to piss people off without coming right out and saying it. I learned this from your more experienced members.

So while your mods drop the hammer on direct speak, they look the other way if you can be ambiguous when in all actuality, if you've got an IQ above 80, we all know exactly what the point was.

We're not dumb. The thing is, it's all about "how" you say it and not "what" you say, even if the two are related to your premise. And this is the part that is infuriating. It stifles free speech. Clearly, hate speech should not be allowed and I condemn it. However, it is not the mod's prerogative to pick and choose who is more adapted to speak with a silver tongue. Member A may say something borderline to discrimination, but member B can word it in such a way where it doesn't appear that way even though they are reiterating member A's comments almost verbatim.

Point is, ATS should give members an opportunity to edit their comments beyond the four-hours and mods need to stop pretending they're an authority on the English language. For example, if I say "no christian conversions in the work place", it would be deemed insensitive to Christians. However, if I say "no proselytism in the work place", somehow that is ok. Depending on the context of the thread, we ALL know what religion is being referenced when the word proselytism is used.

So there you have it. A slippery slope when mods try to enforce T&C and if you get enough of them together, that member will be banned.
What are your comments regarding this?

Thanks.

One grey area i have noticed...
posting this will get you a warning and the offending pic removed..

Saying this...Face Palm...Double Facepalm etc..seems to be OK.

I understand that the Mods cant be everywhere and see everything at all times and somethings need to be brought to the attention of the Mods before it can be dealt with, But I do feel a little uncomfortable running to a Mod with a complaint, i would rather leave the thread first, though if i feel any punishment i receive is unjust i will no doubt have my say and ask the Mods for a explanation, so far they havn't let me down....might not be the answer i was hoping for but ho hum, we move on.

Maybe i'm just being Paranoid though.? Hell, that's what drove me here in the first place.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Well I am being let down. I'm confident enough to know when I make a valid point and to have that point go unanswered is a let down. Not speaking about this thread. Just in general. When it goes beyond 24 hours for a response, I will know I'm right.

a reply to: FlySolo

1. There is no such thing as freedom of speech on ATS. We've never claimed that and it's never been the case.

2. What you say regarding biased moderation could happen. The problem with your hypothesis is you assume that there are more than 1 or two mods who agree with wax other. Our staff is about as diverse as I have ever seen any organization.

3. We moderate according the T&C not our opinions. Bans and most actions taken are done via consensus by several mods. And again I can count on one hand out of 70 staff members people who agree with me on various issues.

4. The staff do not live an echo chamber. The example you used of discrimination is entirely correct because context matters. In the first bit you're singling out a specific denomination. The other you aren't. See the difference?

We aren't dumb either, and we've all been doing this long enough to understand intent behind written dialogue. ATS offers this space and the staff help keep it in accordance to its founding principles which are the Terms and Conditions.

Nothing else really matters to the staff other than upholding those ideals. It's worked marvelously thus far.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I have seen those T and C's interpreted in ways that made punishment much more easy to justify before.

Like someone says "I support the 2nd amendment because people shouldn't put up with tyranny"

Mod says That's advocating Violence!!!! T and C violation! 1000 points off your driver's license..

And If this is annoying to hear, please don't think I meant it in a hostile way. But my point is that it happens. Is it the end of life? Nah no biggie. In a million years, it won't really matter anyways. Perhaps it will be a behavior study prerequisite for some advanced galactic code of conduct on a neural network of infinite knowledge that uses plasma powered computing. (And they all get along real good like Robocop 2 when he was all nice to everyone).. Well, just an idea..

1. There is no such thing as freedom of speech on ATS. We've never claimed that and it's never been the case.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Glad you pointed that out, but I already knew. I have a real hard time trying to get my head around 'any speech' when this is the case. Type, delete, type again, backspace...it's very troublesome side stepping T&C and angry mods. Stifling.

2. What you say regarding biased moderation could happen. The problem with your hypothesis is you assume that there are more than 1 or two mods who agree with wax other. Our staff is about as diverse as I have ever seen any organization.

Then ATS needs transparency. If a member is being disciplined, then WE need to see which moderators are doing it. WE need to have access to what you see, if only temporary during the the deliberation process. Being left in the dark while the possibility of mod prejudice and bias exists, is not welcome.

4. The staff do not live an echo chamber. The example you used of discrimination is entirely correct because context matters. In the first bit you're singling out a specific denomination. The other you aren't. See the difference?

This is a HUGE problem. There is no difference. If the thread is talking about Christians, then why would I say Muslim when responding to the context? Makes no sense and this is exactly my point. I can substitute any other word but the context remains the same. So why censor it? What you're basically saying is, "you can be discriminatory provided you aren't blatantly using words which are discriminatory" This in itself is a violation against T&C but as long as you're 'word savvy" you can get away with it. See the grey area?

As for post removals, we should be given the opportunity to grab a thesaurus before that happens and given a chance to "rephrase" the offending remark. As it is now, there is no recourse.

One more thing. A statute of limitations is needed. Mods shouldn't be allowed to go back months or years to remove a post and have it count towards you in one final swoop against your 5 strikes.

a reply to: FlySolo

Glad you pointed that out, but I already knew. I have a real hard time trying to get my head around 'any speech' when this is the case. Type, delete, type again, backspace...it's very troublesome side stepping T&C and angry mods. Stifling.

Then you have issues with any and all forms of online media, as any of them that are not designed as public spaces, are private spaces and therefore have no right to freedom of speech. Nor should they.

Then ATS needs transparency. If a member is being disciplined, then WE need to see which moderators are doing it. WE need to have access to what you see, if only temporary during the the deliberation process. Being left in the dark while the possibility of mod prejudice and bias exists, is not welcome.

The simple answer to this is no. It's none of your business, nor anybody else's but the people involved. We govern according tot he T&C, and by no means are we obligated to show you our process or to 'prove' that we aren't doing something you don't approve of.

We've never given ATS members any kind of reason to believe that we are anything different, than what we've always claimed to be. A group of people with various interests and opinions, who have come together to help run a successful website.

Furthermore, part of ATS' success relies on the fact that we as staff are trusted to run things according to the guidelines set in front of us by owners and admin. We do this for free, there is no ulterior motive for us to do anything but what the T&C states.

See the grey area?

Are you implying that by having it any other way, there would be less grey areas? I agree, there are grey areas, which is why again, we moderate based on consensus. I may not agree with a particular post removal, but if 8 other staff do, then that's what's going to happen.

Regardless of our individual opinions.

As for post removals, we should be given the opportunity to grab a thesaurus before that happens and given a chance to "rephrase" the offending remark. As it is now, there is no recourse.

Of course there is no recourse. Nobody forced you to press REPLY. You decided of your own volition to type those words and send them out to the boards. Perhaps I would encourage you and other members to think before they post.

One more thing. A statute of limitations is needed. Mods shouldn't be allowed to go back months or years to remove a post and have it count towards you in one final swoop against your 5 strikes.

That's actually already a rule we have. ATS does not go back in time to look for things to action. 95% of ALL actions taken are the direct result of a member complaint. The only things that we would consider above that rule are egregious violations like gore, porn, exceptional racism, glorifying of Hitler, you know that sort of thing.

The way ATS staff has done things and will continue to do things, has worked. Wonderfully, without much problems. Sure mistakes happen, sure the right call isn't always made, but we deal with that.

And we deal with it privately, among those who were involved, such as the member and those specific staff members.

I'll leave you with a few sections of the T&C, that may further your understanding.

24) Right of Community Management. This is a privately owned discussion board community. TAN reserves the right to take action against any member, or member Posting, which is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption, represents behavior contrary to community building, or in cases where the content is contrary to the core ideals of the Websites. This action may include removal of your Posting and/or complete banning of your username and IP address. TAN reserves the right to eliminate or edit any content deemed inappropriate for the discussion boards, news network or any affiliated sites. TAN reserves the right to establish limits on topics that may be discussed if, in their opinion, the discussion of those topics attract an audience that is counterproductive to maintaining the ideals set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership.

21b) Cooperation: You will, if asked by TAN, cease to Post any content, and/or links to content, deemed offensive, objectionable, or in poor taste by TAN, in its sole discretion.

Bottom line, these are the rules that the owners of ATS, have decided are what must be followed. They aren't going to change.

If members do not like what they signed up for, then they are free to log out and not return. I don't want that to happen, but you're never going to please everybody, and quite frankly that's not our goal.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you had actions taken against your own account, and you want to discuss it, then you can do that. You just need to file an alert, or PM the staff members in question. Although the fastest way to get a response is via the complaint feature, considering any individual you may PM, may not come online for extended periods of time.

Since we have lives in RL, and we do this entirely for free, because we love this community.

~Tenth