Best Tank!

Originally posted by mooeuro
what is all like Russian tank is best that American tank is best this no body seems to realize that the British challenger 2 is best it has the best standard armor in the world and is one powerful machine

The challenger is a beautiful machine. It however is almost identically matched to the M1. Same gun, same armor. Differnat engines. AS far as electronic suites, dont know what they share if anything.

Originally posted by SectorGaza

T-90 has a possible kill at 5.5km with AT-11
and definite kill at 2km
and+ it got shtora, that means you wont surprise the tank because it also alerts the crew to threats!
it has 830mm of frontal armor, 30mm more than abrams

literally, Neither abrams nor T-90 have 800 or 830mm of armor.Its measured in RHA, which is how thick the armor would be if it were just regular steel armor.

it uses almost 20 year old tech yet its still equal to the "brand new" abrams



[Edited on 1-12-2003 by SectorGaza]

The T-90 was bought by India even though it's performance during summer trials was called "lukewarm". Military Sources in New Delhi were quoted as saying it's missle system performed poorly. It also said that initially it's engines performed well but when daytime trials started. The powerpacks de-rated and at least one of the trial machines suffered extensive damage in the high heat. Official sources said officials at army headquarters, inexplicably desperate to aquire the T90s, reportedly dismissed the overheating as "teething problems".

Reasons for going with the T-90 was cost and commonality with existing tanks in use and the availability of service and upgrades from Russia.

Seems to me that such a tank, having been in use already for several years should not have "teething problems" with heat, especially in a common diesel engine that is hardly exotic or complex and is already in use with Indias existing T-72s......

Originally posted by FULCRUM
For the MASTERS OF THE ARMOURED WARFARE AND THEIR SUPREME TANKS..

To the Germans and to the Leopard series..

You people really should be shamed..

Really even USA spies Germany and its Leopard making factories for their armor techs..

Really..

USA is so desperate and so far behind that they even tryed to buy a whole factory from Spain that was licence producing Leopard 2s..

I dont know how that ended..

Did or did they not get the factory.. but at least they tryed hard to get it..

Respect!

Not sure what is so unusual about that. Defense contractors routinely buy other companies. BAE recently bought United Defense, the maker of the M-2 Bradly IFV.

General Dynamics, a U.S. defense contractor DOES OWN the company that makes the Leopard II A6s for Spain. If we wanted the design info and access to the techs guess what....we HAVE them.

Personally, I think it is funny how you label such importance on such things when all you really bring to the table is ingnorance of them. The M1, Challenger and Leopard are heavily exported to other countries, that means $$$ to be made and a reason to buy a factory that makes them.

You make such silly claims and assumptions as to not be taken seriously anymore.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by SorryOciffer]

Originally posted by SorryOciffer

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by jetsetter
Ok we never said that a western tank could not get destroyed. They can no tank is invincible. Western tanks are just better. I will see if I can get some picks of the junks yards miles long of Russian tanks and such in Iraq.

All Russian weapons are like AKs..

Powerful and always functional..

US weapons are like M-16s..

They jamm and fail..

Your funny fulcrum, to bad you dont know more about what you speak. U.S./Brit weapons in theatre had virtually unheard of readiness rates due to superior ground/maintence personel.

Oh, and if you think AKs dont jam you live are very naive. While a wonderful weapon, I have seen them jam at public machine gun shoots. To bad they are not as accurate, shorter ranged, not as modular, and have inferior ergonomics, sights, and trigger.

AR's (of which I own several) and M-16s had problems when first issued due to improper design changes not approved by the designed they were quicky sorted out and now have an extremely good record of service.

M16s used to jam in damp climates due to rusting in the chamber......they are now chrome plated and do not jam due to this anymore..........i saw a spring break but it wasnt on a cotl it was a bushmaster ar15

some of the 3rd party copies of the ak in central and eastern europe are nice guns
the russian one is ok but hasnt changed much in quality and materials since the 80s
it is far less accurate tho than a colt and i agree isnt very ergonomic.....the recoil in semi is not very user friendly either
they seem front heavy.......the wooden stock ones at least
i shot an american composite copy at a private shootout......that gun solved most of the problems mentioned
the ar however fits like a glove.......holds like a pistol........wont strain your neck when you look into the sightrail.....i'm 6' tall
russians dont have the finances to buy or develop the quality of tools needed to build the types of equipment other countries have
until they get some bling they wont have these kinds of things either.
it aint a slam on russian ingenuity.......they just dont have the resources
china on the other hand has the clout but wont no one sell em any weapons
and being a fairly poor country for a while hasnt helped them in the development department either
but if france germany and england start sellin them weapons that could be bad news for everyone......then i say the us invades france and says hey germany were sorry for takin this in ww2 here you can have it back in exchange for twisting the queens panties into not giving china any radar or tanks.
then just sell off frances army at liquidation prices to moscow so they can get goin and say screw china well just take their stuff with our new leclerc tanks
and be done dealin with em
and start makin some money from the spoils......hell im sure the chinese people in the newly conquered russian part will be a hell of a lot better off
with the new russian govt than with the old chinese one
they will thank the russians for invading and well all eat general tsos chicken drink vodka and beers.

Originally posted by jetsetter
Actually before the M1 the US and Germany were working on a tank that could be used by both forces. The cost went up so they stop the project. They still worked together on some bits and that is why the German and US tanks have things in common. They do have some pretty big diffefences though. Also the M1 does no use the British amour anymore. They uses DU armour.

Not true. The M1 and it's variants still use the Brits armor it now has a form of DU in it though IIRC. The DU is used in the rod penetrator in the FSDS rounds.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by SorryOciffer]

Originally posted by SorryOciffer

Originally posted by FULCRUM
For the MASTERS OF THE ARMOURED WARFARE AND THEIR SUPREME TANKS..

To the Germans and to the Leopard series..

You people really should be shamed..

Really even USA spies Germany and its Leopard making factories for their armor techs..

Really..

USA is so desperate and so far behind that they even tryed to buy a whole factory from Spain that was licence producing Leopard 2s..

I dont know how that ended..

Did or did they not get the factory.. but at least they tryed hard to get it..

Respect!

Not sure what is so unusual about that. Defense contractors routinely buy other companies. BAE recently bought United Defense, the maker of the M-2 Bradly IFV.

Personally, I think it is funny how you label such importance on such things when all you really bring to the table is ingnorance of them. The M1, Challenger and Leopard are heavily exported to other countries, that means $$$ to be made and a reason to buy a factory that makes them. That being said I am un-aware of such a purchase attempt and will see what I can find out.

looks ahelluva lot like an m1 to me

LOSAT

This is a hypersonic, kinetic energy weapon with a range only listed at "several miles" and can reach it's target at maximum range in less than 5 sec.

It is said that because of it's extreme speed that it is extremely countermeasure resistant at max range and more so at close ranges where the reaction time would have to virtually instantanious.

This can be fired from Hummers, helicopters and possibly aircraft.

Originally posted by Russian

Did you know that also the Abrams uses hella fuel.

It also has very hot exhaust fumes and that equals a beigger IR signal.

So the Abrams can be detected by other tanks faster then it can detect someone else.

And by the time it detects someone else the first shot will be fire and in most battles first shot is the main shot.

Where do you get your info?

Hella fuel? What is that? The M1 uses what is essentialy a jet engine and burns a type of jet fuel.

While it's exaust is very hot it is vented and disapated through slats at the rear. Head on views would not look much differant than if it was a diesel.

As far as other tanks detecting it before it did them....Hardly. The M1 uses the latest in thermal viewers, viewers that are at least a full generation ahead of anything Russian or Chinese. M1s consistantly ruled the roost and got first round detections and kills against T-72 and 80s in GWII.

Granted the thermal viewers in T-72 and 80s are likely not as advanced as in the 90 but if the claim you make without proof were true it would not have mattered.

Originally posted by peteemonster

Originally posted by SorryOciffer

Originally posted by FULCRUM
For the MASTERS OF THE ARMOURED WARFARE AND THEIR SUPREME TANKS..

To the Germans and to the Leopard series..

You people really should be shamed..

Really even USA spies Germany and its Leopard making factories for their armor techs..

Really..

USA is so desperate and so far behind that they even tryed to buy a whole factory from Spain that was licence producing Leopard 2s..

I dont know how that ended..

Did or did they not get the factory.. but at least they tryed hard to get it..

Respect!

Not sure what is so unusual about that. Defense contractors routinely buy other companies. BAE recently bought United Defense, the maker of the M-2 Bradly IFV.

Personally, I think it is funny how you label such importance on such things when all you really bring to the table is ingnorance of them. The M1, Challenger and Leopard are heavily exported to other countries, that means $$$ to be made and a reason to buy a factory that makes them. That being said I am un-aware of such a purchase attempt and will see what I can find out.

looks ahelluva lot like an m1 to me

Nope, it's the latest Leopard II. The A6 IIRC.

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by bisonn
"Its armor" referring to the new Nonexplosive Reactive Armor Tech?

I dont know..

As armor doesnt really intress me that much.. just tanks as whole..

But it is 100% fact that US has its mind set for getting and copying this new type of leopard armor..

Or i dont know about 'new'.. but it surely is something that Yanks cant do without German blue prints.. so..

Well...100% fact in your head anyway...

Originally posted by SectorGaza
check this article about abrams

?They were designed to deal with the Soviet juggernaut,? Garrett said. They are not supposed to be stopped by a pencil-thin projectile. ?That?s what?s very confusing about it,? he added.

www.globalsecurity.org...

I recall this....

What is unusual is that if this is some sort of super anti-tank weapon, why hasn't is happened a second time? Many of the M1s have been hit by RPGs so the opportunity has been there, but yet no more of such incidents....Kinda lends creadence to the "lucky shot" theory.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
That is so..

Also i see nothing special about tank beign disabled or better yet destroyed by HEAT CHARGE.. (RPG..)

AS posted previously, many M1s have taken multiple RPG hits and continued to function fine....

Americans are just plain stupid..

They must be taking notes from you.

I think that they really belive that tank must be blown to bits to stop one..

And this really isnt so..

Apparently it doesnt matter much with Russian tanks, as so far all the evidence shows one shot is all it takes to peel a Russian tank open like a banana.

Maybe they have seen too much image about Iraqi tanks knocked out by 500lb LGBs..

Why bother to spend bombs, as 10lb RPG does the same..

Because in 99.99% of the ime it will take a great deal more, for a NATO tank anyway. We already know what happens to T-72s and 80s...

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by Seekerof
Fulcrum:
"Americans are just plain stupid..."

Huh?!

regards
seekerof

Well,

Not 100% of you,

But MOST!

And that is not good..

You are beign screwed by Bush & his NWO-gang so badly.. yet you dont even see it..

In fact you dont even see that Bush is a henchmen of the NWO..

Part of their innercircle..

And i am still kinda missing evidence about WTC and Osama connection..

And where the hell are Iraqi WMDs?

Which btw, Iraq had/has 100% right to have.. if they would have those.. but the funny part is that they dont have em..

Dont keep on the news much do you? According to the resolutions passed by the farce of a organization called the U.N. they did not have the right to have them. If he had non, all he had to do was allow unrestricted access to the places inspectors wanted and he would still be in power.

Then you have several foreign intelligence agencies tell us that their best info says they have them, ours believed they have them, hell, even Putin believed he had them yet no-one wanted to enforce any of the 14+ resolutions. Personally, I think they made it to Syria.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
The fact that you are stupified as something (your weapons is destroyed..)

M1s

No matter how good, some will get destroyed, mainly by IEDs. Imagine if we used Russian tanks...They would be littering the roads and desert like the Iraqi one did....

F-117s

Ever heard of the "golden BB" rule? Basically it says that no matter how good you fly or how stealthy you are, if your enemy fills the air with enough random AA fire you will likely get hit and it will be the round you never expected.

F-16s

F-16s aren't stealth so missles are a constant threat and are sometimes unavoidable. It should be said though that none were shot down by another aircraft.

M16s that just dont work..

Nothing special to those either..

And also, badly made assault rifles dont get better 'over years'..

Already commented on this... Before VN was even over the faults of the M-16 were cured. and they have proven very reliable. They are the most modular and capable rifle system in use and are used by the UK and AUS special forces among others. They have numerous advantages over the AK series. It is a precision rifle meant to be used by trained troops, not poorly trained and led conscripts like the AK is.

Americans are people like the rest.. not some immortal gods..

First thing in your post that made sense.

And this whole 'Terrorism thing' reality is that people of the USA fail to see that what your goverment calls as terrorism is infact just resistance to their evil plans to dominate the world..

Well, when other countries wont act either for monitary or political; reasons we will if it effects us. There was a story the other day about a group of women, children found beheaded and shot outside a city in Iraq. THAT is terrorism. The trade towers was terrorism. Russia had a school taken over and blown up with many children killed because Russia was getting involved in another country....

You see, the same can be said about your homeland so I would not go and get so high and mighty if I were you.....

Face the facts: USA is nazis of the 21st century.. of the American century as you like to call it.. as Bush and his NWO buddys like to call it..

Yes you are right, we will just forget about the millions Russias own leaders have killed in their own countries and the countries Russia supplied who did the same to their people and to neighboring peoples. Yes, your country is completely innocent.

:shk:

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by omega1
o please this is turning into another one of fulcrums I hate america threads

relax fulcrum

I am mostly hating Mr.Bush, and this mofo Laxpla that is busting my balls with his childish BS..

So will do.. (Relaxing part..)

Im off to pay some bills and maybe ill get couple of beers or ciders while im at it..

I believe that the reason much of Europe does not like Bush is that, unlike Clinton, he does not bend to the will of collective europe like clinton. Yes, I guess we should do what europe says so we too can have double didgit unemployment and a socialist gov....... NOT.

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by FULCRUM

Originally posted by omega1
o please this is turning into another one of fulcrums I hate america threads

relax fulcrum

I am mostly hating Mr.Bush, and this mofo Laxpla that is busting my balls with his childish BS..

So will do.. (Relaxing part..)

Im off to pay some bills and maybe ill get couple of beers or ciders while im at it..

you dont need to hate Bush and yes laxpla is a moron.

anyway which ww2 tanks was the best? anyone?

I think T-34 was the best cause it really scared the nazi.

Even the nazi wanted to copy it.

The T-34 was a great design and took advantage of mass production and simplicity. It also had a much better suspention that gave it better mobility than any of the german designs.

Originally posted by FULCRUM


Fact remains that Some M1s did get destoyed and captured..
(And those that were disabled by hostile fire were blasted to bit by USAF..)

Nothing special about that..

These things happen in a war!

None were captured. Any that were scuttled were destroyed by the crew, the AF or both to destroy sensitive equipment and to prevent removal of the tank as a whole.

Originally posted by Russian
T-34 Medium Tank
The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, and in September 1940 T-34 was put into series production mounting a 76mm gun. The Model 1940, the first T-34 production variant, t was armed with the L-11 76.2 mm gun, which was considerably shorter than the subsequent F-34 76.2 mm main gun of the 1941 and later models. The mantlet was also round in contrast to the more square mantlets of later models. The tank's main advantage was its simple design which made it easy to mass produce and repair. The T-34 was also small and comparibaly light, while the tank's water-cooled diesel engine minimized the danger of fire and increased the tank's the radius of action. The design overcame the technological superiority of German forces during the Great Patriotic War. Built in Ukraine in the Kharkov Steam-Engine Factory (KhPZ), the German general von Runstedt called the T-34 the "best tank in the world" and von Kleist said it was the "finest in the world." The T-34 had a more powerful cannon than German tanks, a higher top speed (32 MPH versus 25 MPH), and superior sloped armor and superior welded construction. However, the German Tiger and Panther tanks outranged the T34's original 76mm gun, and subsequently a 85mm gun was mounted on a T-34 tank. The T-34/85 was a modification of the T-34 equipped with a more powerful armor and cannon. T-34/85 had a flatter turret which gave this already inovative tank design the look that all tanks adopted after the wars end. Although not equal to the German Panther and Tiger tanks, the huge numbers of T-34s more than compensated for their technological shortcomings.

Users: Algeria, Angola, Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Germany, Hungary, North Korea, Poland, Romania, Russia, Syria, Ukraine, Vietnam, former Yugoslavia and other CIS states.






Specifications

Crew: 5

Armament: 85mm gun main gun
7.62mm DTM bow MG
7.62mm DTM coaxial MG

Maximum road speed: 55 km/h

Maximum road range: 300 km

Engine: V-2-34 V-12 diesel developing 500hp

also please dont bash the US or Russia on this forum cause this NOT a Russian vs. USA Tech debate thread!

Thank you

[Edited on 7-12-2003 by Russian]

Supposedly, Russia still has quite a few T-34s stockpiled. Still quite useful for low intencity conflicts and as aid to foreign countries.

Originally posted by Russian
These two tanks where very good in battle.

With the Tiger having a better armour and gun

T-34 faster speed and better mobilaty.

But the Germans couldn't build alot of Tigers cause it was close to the end of the war and they were lower on metals.

Not to mention is was a large and complex design and was difficult to maintain in the field.

Originally posted by SorryOciffer

Originally posted by peteemonster

Originally posted by SorryOciffer

Originally posted by FULCRUM
For the MASTERS OF THE ARMOURED WARFARE AND THEIR SUPREME TANKS..

To the Germans and to the Leopard series..

You people really should be shamed..

Really even USA spies Germany and its Leopard making factories for their armor techs..

Really..

USA is so desperate and so far behind that they even tryed to buy a whole factory from Spain that was licence producing Leopard 2s..

I dont know how that ended..

Did or did they not get the factory.. but at least they tryed hard to get it..

Respect!

Not sure what is so unusual about that. Defense contractors routinely buy other companies. BAE recently bought United Defense, the maker of the M-2 Bradly IFV.

Personally, I think it is funny how you label such importance on such things when all you really bring to the table is ingnorance of them. The M1, Challenger and Leopard are heavily exported to other countries, that means $$$ to be made and a reason to buy a factory that makes them. That being said I am un-aware of such a purchase attempt and will see what I can find out.

looks ahelluva lot like an m1 to me

Nope, it's the latest Leopard II. The A6 IIRC.

someone was sayin the us was trying to aquire the leopard factory........i was suggesting that the leopard 2 looks as if it has many of the same design ques of the older M1.......shape and all......look at it almost the spitting image......so why would the us wanna make leopard tanks? put a slightly longet gun on the m1a1 and your set