Best Tank!

Originally posted by FULCRUM

US Vietnam war was as long as USSRs Afganistan war..

10 years both..

USSR lost 13000 KIA..

US lost 56000 KIA..

In your face MOFO!

To bad you are compareing apples to oranges. Vietnam was a war fought on a much larger scale than Afganistan ever was, we had approx 1 million personel over there. Meanwhile, the NVA were 10x the soldiers that the mujihadeen were and were being supplied by Russia and China.

Makes Russias defeat that much more humiliating. Mr. Kalishnikov and some other russian military personel met with Peter Kokalis, a former SF operator and trainer who had been all over the world from Bosnia to Afganistan. All said the Afganies were horrible shots and that the only thing that saved them was the infusion of stinger missles, their desire to win and Russian disapproval of the war.

And also..

Who is now in Afganistan? Fighting against Guerillas?

US IS!

And we are kicking @ss all the way.

And btw,

you lose people killed there daily..

Its just not shown in the CNN..

The war in Afganistan is far from over..

Well, it is comabt. Just because one has superior forces does not mean one will never lose persons. BTW, more people are killed in one of our major cities in one day than in Iraq and afganistan combined. Regrettable but nothing in the big picture.

Originally posted by FULCRUM

1st of all..

Tanks will not ever have laser guns.

If they will have somekinds of other main guns these will be rail guns.

While I will not say they never will have them, I agree, rail guns will appear first. The down side to both is that they require HUGE amounts of power and suitable power sources and efficent ways to use the power have yet to be shrunk down to where it is feasible to put in anything but a ship or ground based instalation.
2nd..

When US/UK/Israel has these..

So will Russians..

No, they won't. Such devices will require substantial advances in power sources and miniturization, even for the U.S., before it could be considered combat worthy. Russia is substantially behind in oth regards.

Originally posted by FULCRUM

T-80s and T-90s have been used in combat..

Some might have been damaged.. but of destroyed i havent heard of..
(But it is very likely that some have been destroyed..)

These have been used in Chechenya..

The Chechen army is hardly a world class military. They also used older russian weapons so it is hard to guage how they would work against other more modern hardware.

IIRC, Iraq had a few T-80s....

Russians also dont wonder and made up lies if their tanks get hit and destroyed..

Of course not, after all the communist propaganda machine never really existed.

They just live with it..

I hope not, for their crews sake!

You Americans do..

I think out 1-1.5% loss rate proves you wrong. Again.

Originally posted by HerExcellency
I think the question about which MBT is best is irrelevant. As we've seen from the last several wars it's not just armor vs. armor.

Statistics from the last two middle eastern confrontations are available and show that the latest generation US made MBT and the upgrades available to them make them almost nigh indestructible to land base weapon fire.

Lest we forget the lessons learn from WWII and repeated again and again, armor regardless of it's strength is useless without air superiority.

The Russian will make it and the people with the right money and connections will own it, and the Americans will blow them up like so many party balloons. It is the nature of the world right now.

hrxll

True on all accounts. One must also take into account crew training, of which the U.S. crews recieve much more of, live fire and simulated. The ability to maintain the equipment is also key, American crews are among the most efficient and well trained in the world making a very high % of the systems available for combat instead of sitting waiting for depot repair.

Originally posted by Russian

And by the time it becomes a fact Russia will have enough money to buy them too.

It might, at the expense of other needs OR it will be gotten with funds from selling China weapons which will bight Russia in the @ss eventually.

If you dont follow Russian economy then I will tell you that in 4-10 years Russia will become the superpower.

I know you will say it BS but it ok you will have to just wait and see.

The Russian economy is growing 8% a year and US economy is growing 3-4% a year.

Russia will be no more a superpower in 10 years than it is now. The corruption, infighting, and a military to large to effectively maintain will see to it. That combined with Russia's increaseing problems with AIDS and drugs and Putins latest power grab will see to it. China will supercede Russia as Asias predominant power because they understand that and embrace what is needed to attain it.

I dont hate US technology.

Good, I dont hate Russian Tech.

They have nice things but you can just SHUT UP about Russian tech being a peice of trash.

Yes we do. And the Russians have some very interesting and innovative things as well. They were among, if not the first, to put IR tracking systems to find aircraft without radar in their aircraft.

If it will come to a war between Russia and US you and I will both be dead.

So just chill out and stop being a RACIST!

Actually, if there is war I forsee it being between Russia and China or the U.S. and China. Hence why we are going forth with a sea based ICBM interceptor system.

Originally posted by Russian

And when it comes to war between Russian and US it will not be armor vs armor or the air superiority.

It will be nuke vs nuke

Not neccisarily. Both sides as well as those who border us know that is a lose/lose for everyone with little likelyhood of mankind rallying back to pre-war conditions.

But Russia would have a better chance cause Russia is almost 3 times as big as US.

That means nothing. Do you think the U.S. would just carpet bomb Russia with nukes? Of course not, so size has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Russian

I talk like i know cause I know what I am talking about.

Russia right now is putting in 2004 21% more money in military.

And Russian economy is growing faster.

Also Russia is the second biggest oil exporter.

And oil is money.

Well, it has to. Your military is in a shambles. Your navy sits rusting in port more than it sails, your pilots get 1/10 the flight hours ours do. Your soldiers moral is very poor as they make last I heard approx $6 a month and I have seen pictures of your air bases that look horrible and run down, pics of your soldiers tending gardens for food because the food is poor in quanitity and quality.
Russia would have to DOUBLE what it now spends just to maintain what it has at a minimal level.

The last figures I heard for crew training accidents in the Russian Navy, several years ago, stated that you lose approx 2K persons a year to training accidents, just in your navy! We have not lost that many in 3 years of combat in IRAQ and Afganistan.

For Russia to truly have a 1st class military it will have to learn as China did, that it cannot maintain the #s they have AND quality. China has scaled back it's forces substantially in order to afford newer equipment. The U.S. has always gone with a smaller, higher quality force.

www.csmonitor.com...

www.rense.com...

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by jetsetter
Do the Russian people want this. I would think that after the Cold War they would want a little change.

Do they have a choice?

And Russia will always go after US and they will beat US!

Russians are coming and you better start hiding in 4-10 years.

You mean like they did during the cold war? 10 years from now Russia will likely be in the same state as it is now because you are not adapting to what is going on around you. China figured it out and is reaping the benefits.

Originally posted by Russian

They do have a new goverment but Russia is Russia.

It is that type of thinking that will hold Russia back.

They will always have weapons to compete with US tech.

No. Once again, China has figured this out and is going with a smaller, newer, higher tech force to replace the "old school" Russian docterine and weapons they bought.

Refer to the links I posted a response or two back. Russian military training and moral is very lacking. Unless the motherland is actually invaded I think you will find the majority of Russian soldiers have little interest in war and fighting the west after seeing what the western weapons are capable of.

Russian GPS jammers sold to Iraq made for nothing more than good target practice for GPS guided munitions. The Iraqi military structure and weapons modeled after the Russian docterine failed miserably and Russia knows it and must revamp the entire structure.

Originally posted by Russian

why did students have to learn hide under desks?

the US goverment new something you people didnt know.

It knew that a nuclear war would devistate both sides, if the russian bombs ever made it. Nuclear attack drills were nothing more than something to tell the populace who were nervis about being attacked and wanted to believe there was something they could actually do about it to survive. Human Nature.

Give US sometime and it will fall.

If you look at the history every thing falls.

and US is not an exeption!

just wait and see Russia will be on top again and they will fall again just like every other country!

True. I personally think, if it happens, it will be in the next 100-150 years and will not be because of Russia or China but ourselves. Our country is becoming to politically correct and liberal. We are trying to be everything to everyone and inclusive and compassionate at the expense of our sovernty and best interests.
Our country is being bled dry by illegal immingrants and social groups who want nothing but to divide and sectionalize the country. It will take extreme measures to rid our country of such a menace but the U.S. people as a whole are soft and weak willed with short memories so it goes on.

Originally posted by jetsetter
The United States has been around for only 300 years. I say that we have atleast 100 more years before we fall and by then I am hoping for some world govenment.

This is what the U.N. is trying to establish but trust me, it is not a good thing, for anyone.

Originally posted by Russian
I can see by you and me.

I am Russian

You are American.

and we DONT agree with anything!

So, because you don't agree on this one topic you believe such things? Very closed minded of you. If there is a reason it ever proves true, it will be by such thinking. You dont open your mind and think about the bigger picture.

Originally posted by Russian

Russians are VERY patriotic.

They will ALWAYS dislike Americans.

For no other reason than you have been told to and your elders were. How ignorant. I will always see Russia and China aspotential enemies but do not dislike the people of those countries simply because of that. Yet another reason Russia will remain as it is unless it changes and adapts. The world is more connected and integrated than ever and will continue to be more so. Such thinking as yours will only ostrisize your country and make it that much harder to improve.

Face it. Communism failed. It has failed everytime it has been tried. It is inherantly corrupt and prone to fail.

Originally posted by Russian

24

it will be a very long time.

IF EVER.

Your still young and nieve. The longer you live the more you will realise you never really knew.... Things change, some for the better, some for worse. All you can do is adapt and react if things get out of hand.

Originally posted by jetsetter

From www.globalsecurity.org...

This seems like a good tanks.

Try www.sinodefence.com as well, if you already haven't. Illistrates teh latest in Chinese weaponry.

Originally posted by jetsetter
Have you herd of the T-95? Here is some info on it

T-95 (Objekt 775)
"A new new Main Battle Tank, which was initially planned to enter service in 1994, remains in development due to financial restrictions. It is under development at the Uralvagonzavod Plant in Nizhniy Tagil [Potkin's bureau] which was responsible for all recent Russian tanks apart from the T-80. "URALVAGONZAVOD" (Ural Carriage-Building Plant) in Nizhny Tagil has manufactured a variety of products, ranging from universal type 8-axle rail cars and tanks of the highest quality to the T-34 tanks which had no rivals in World War II.

State acceptance trials of the new tank started at the Kubinka Proving Ground in August or September of 1998. Very little information is publicly available concerning this vehicle, including the official designation, which is apparently still designated under the developmental "ob'ekt" nomenclature. It is suggested that this new tank will weigh about 50 tons, though with a lower silhouette than other recent Russian tanks. The primary armament is reportedly a 152mm smoothbore gun / ATGM launcher with an ammunition load of at least 40 rounds, which may be placed in an unmanned gun pod on top of the hull to lower the silhouette and increase survivability. The new design also places far greater emphasis on crew protection than in previous Russian tank designs through a unitary armored pod inside the hull.

This new tank is apparently in competition with the T-80UM2 "Black Eagle" modification, and may remain unable to secure production funding due to its higherr cost and the potential for upgrading the existing T-80 inventory to the "Black Eagle" standard. "
From: www.globalsecurity.org...

From what I have read, it seems the B.E. is on a all new chassis and not just the old T-80 chassis. Perhaps they will take what they can and retrofit it to the T-80 to save even more $?

Originally posted by SectorGaza
russia also had sattelite laser crap and airborn lasers, the A-60 for example,
russia also making new nukes that make the laser defence useless, like the scramjet nuke that was tested in 1993.


[Edited on 27-11-2003 by SectorGaza]

Yes, the scramjet....Here is a quote I found from a reputable source...

"It is important to recognize that the Russian claims of superiority, even on their face, are not all that revolutionary, and do not constitute such superiority after all. Indeed, though CNN talks of a "mystery and "revolutionary" weapon, BBC cites the unnamed defense official as saying that they would be only "almost revolutionary". Should the United States wish to overcome scramjet or other technologies with countermeasure applications, it has the capabilities available in laser weapons."

Unless scramjets are sprinkled with pixie dust and are now capable of light speed, lasers will do fine to destroy them. Besides, even the ship based system we are testing now will be able to attack such weapons in the boost phase, the slowest and most vulnerable part of the attack. This means that even so, the vast bulk of any Russian missle will be vulnerable to the lowest tech version of interception keeping the laser available for those that manage to get through.

Originally posted by Russian
This is some basic things that are good and bad about the Abrams.

Good:
Has a hull and turret made from British Chobham armour, which is claimed to make the tank immune to attack from both missiles and tank guns.

Bad:
It is noisy

Emits a very hot exhaust(and thus has a strong infra-red(IR) signature)

very very thristy on fuel.(not very long range on missions)

Actually, having seen both the M1 and it's predecessor, the M-60 in action, the M1 is less noticable and does not exibit the typical diesel plume when aceelerating.

You are right in that it's exaust is very hot, cant help that much being a turbine. It's range is compareable to other frontline tanks.

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by THENEO
Yeah despite what many may believe here Canada has a long history with the tank also.

We currently are major producers of light armoured vehicles too.

Which can be destroyed for one RPG or a armour pircing bullet!

Proof? Funny, you were critiszing such comments without proof earlier...




:shk: