Secret Government employees ... thinking?

Originally posted by GT100FV
Which service are you in, that taught you that common people are useless and unintelligent? I've never ever heard anything approaching that. I don't know too many folks that have inabilities to communicate with civilians either. As for bearing, that's merely tact and professionalism, not blind allegiance.

Thought I'd just throw my 2c at this. I was in the Navy, just enlisted aircraft mech, but we even looked at civies that way to a point, and that attitude trickled down from above. I can just imagine what it's like higher up...

Originally posted by defenceexpert
You probaly have or have not heard of it MDIA is a Military Defence Investigative Agency they only started in 1995 im dont know if it is in the US but there is a small unit there working with FBI but working in Australia mainly inconjuction with ASIO.

MDIA Special Agent
AUS/USA

First: Sorry about my horrid spelling, I hate this keyboard, and need to get a new one...


Unless you are talking about Mount Diablo Interpretive Association I can't find any refence to MDIA on any of the Unclassified government search system I have access to, being AKO, GILS, and the Government Archives, I have not found any refence to MDIA as a government agency and not anything more then Mount Diablo Interpretive Association. The DIA however, does exist, but I have never heard of it's employees being referred to as Special or Secret Agents... I'll keep looking (my primary MOS is a 96B (or whatever the renumbered it), so not only is it my job to research anything, it's FUN!) ANYWHO, back on topic:


GT100, you have NO idea how difficult clearances are nowadays. One of my jobs besides research is to maintain clearances for our Squadion, (Over 400 Personnel), which is a crazy chore. Especially since Top secrets cost over $250,000 each, and I usually need to get a Colonel's approval (I'm in a batallion, which means to get to a Colonel, I have to go through my CSM, LTC, and then my BDE CSM, and BDE XO until I reach him and have him tell me I spelled his name wrong and I need to retype the request (sorry for ramlbing)). A regular secret is about $45,000-$50,000 so they are easier, I normally submit 5-10 of those a month. But the timing is horrible right now, I don't know if any of you guys work with clearances, but JPAS and CCF are backed WAY THE HELL UP. I mean, my investigation is still open and i've been Red On for nearly 2 years! Anyway,


Most government offices look for clearance as well as skill because, even though you may be a genius and know a computer system inside and out, whats to gurantee you from not giving away the information. They look for loyalty, and make sure you don't have certain connections, but they also count on you to make your own decisions about things. Usually, when it comes to extremely sensitive matters, they give people an option to "back out" if they people think they might have issues with it, and remove others who they think might. It's not necessary moral or immoral issues, just the fact that they don't want to know too much about how everything works because it's safer for them and everyone because if they get taken hostage, they can only give away so much.




Finally, Glyph, all of the branchs degrade the other branchs behind closed doors and in training. We probably use the same jokes, just different branch names in place of other branch names. Then again, i'm not sure who the Air force can make fun of, not many Military organizations use a BICYCLE for a PT test...


(or miss the same stationary building 4 times, after failing to arm the missle correctly the first time WHICH STILL BAFFLES me to this day...)

I know all about clearance issues. A lot of folks coming through the schoolhouse that can't get clearances for whatever reason, get reclassed to needs of the Army. It took my buddy 3 yrs before he could even do his job because of the backup. Fortunately for me all I have to do now is keep mine current, rather than go through all the interviews, etc.. again.

As for the denigration of civilians, I just wanted to make it clear that there's no effort in the military to turn against civilians because they're not the same caliber of folks(no pun intended). That's more of a smack talking thing though rather than an indoctrination, just like Airborne personnel make fun of legs, and so on. I did appreciate the fact that the USMC was common sensical enough not to require saluting in combat zones, whereas when you'd go to an Army base, they'd act as if they were in garrison, and want their salutes. Ok sniper, see this jackass, sheeesh.

sounds like he has fun wrighting average 7 measages a day in his profile for his mum

Originally posted by GT100FV
I know all about clearance issues. A lot of folks coming through the schoolhouse that can't get clearances for whatever reason, get reclassed to needs of the Army. It took my buddy 3 yrs before he could even do his job because of the backup. Fortunately for me all I have to do now is keep mine current, rather than go through all the interviews, etc.. again.

As for the denigration of civilians, I just wanted to make it clear that there's no effort in the military to turn against civilians because they're not the same caliber of folks(no pun intended). That's more of a smack talking thing though rather than an indoctrination, just like Airborne personnel make fun of legs, and so on. I did appreciate the fact that the USMC was common sensical enough not to require saluting in combat zones, whereas when you'd go to an Army base, they'd act as if they were in garrison, and want their salutes. Ok sniper, see this jackass, sheeesh.

Yea, that whole saluting thing overseas annoies me. I used to state "Sniper check Sir" when I saluted just to piss them off. PRobably why i'm still an E-4...

That and having some reserve CSM telling me that I needed to wear my black fleece jacket under my uniform, while I'm waiting to get on a helicopter back to where we were working out of. You've got a lot of free time if you're more concerned about AR 670-1, than tactical expediency. I didn't feel like getting into a pissing match with her, considering where I worked, so I just nodded and walked away.

Well, most female CSMs haven't got the slightest clue about combat. She had to be support or something. Those black fleece jackets are nice though. Really warm.

That, and the folks I work with wear their fleeces properly, not under their ACU/BDU/DCU top. That's the most ridiculous notion, for the wear of a jacket. It's a jacket!!! Not an undergarment!

Originally posted by johnsky
Most 'special' agents of any government are hand selected for their national devotion. Most of them stand out because they truely believe that those in charge of their country are 'the right stuff'.

If by 'special' agent, you mean a federal law enforcement officer (gs-1811), then your definition is far from the truth. Most special agents are just average joes with a four year degree and were able to pass whatever hiring process their respective department has (Dept. of State, DOJ, DOE, DOD, etc...).

Trust me. Those who are in charge of selecting these agents with such security clearance spend alot of time reviewing their mental history, and determining what they are capable of.

And you know this how....? What security clearance?

[edit on 31/12/2006 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by SportyMB

Originally posted by johnsky
Most 'special' agents of any government are hand selected for their national devotion. Most of them stand out because they truely believe that those in charge of their country are 'the right stuff'.

If by 'special' agent, you mean a federal law enforcement officer (gs-1811), then your definition is far from the truth. Most special agents are just average joes with a four year degree and were able to pass whatever hiring process their respective department has (Dept. of State, DOJ, DOE, DOD, etc...).

Trust me. Those who are in charge of selecting these agents with such security clearance spend alot of time reviewing their mental history, and determining what they are capable of.

And you know this how....? What security clearance?

[edit on 31/12/2006 by SportyMB]

+1

For a security clearance they do a background check to make sure that the person in question hasn't been involved in nefarious activities, and that their finances aren't all screwed up, as well as conducting interviews with folks that are friends, family, and coworkers(basically looking for anything that would indicate a security risk). At no time do they have you undergo extreme psychological tests to see if they can mold you into a super assasin with no conscience. They don't look to see what political party that the person belongs to either, so you have folks from all over the political spectrum. There is no monolithic view point shared by all federal employees.

Im in the Air Force, and I have a Top Secret clearance. It really wasnt a big deal at all to get. They interviewed me for about 5 minutes one day, talked to a bunch of people that I wrote down in my application, and checked my credit (which sucks, btw). Ive had the TS for about 2 years, and I have yet to see one piece of even secret information. I was told that I need it because of the position that I sit in...

[edit on 1-1-2007 by PokeyJoe]

If there are secret gov't employees they won't tell you how they operate let alone think. Who knows what they would deal with if they exist. I have no proof either way but I would think they operate like anyone else would. Look at the facts then make a choice. I'm sure they know way more info then we do so who knows what they are thinking.

As far as clearances go, 2 things will make or break any clearance getting adjudicated faster then normal.

1. The system you use, such as EQIP instead of EPSQ.
2. The people at OPM who give the final yes or no.

Steps that can be taken to minimize clearance waiting times are as simple as using good references and good adresses/phone numbers. It sounds simple but i'm sure people screw this up all the time and make things hard on the investigators. Trust me on this one, use EQIP not EPSQ. Times have changed and doing things online are way faster then using snail mail. You got questions on this let me know so I can help. Best time for me is getting someone a Secret renewal(ANACI or NACLC, use to be PRS) fully adjudicated in less then 4 months from start to finish. TS is another story.

Certain positions require a polygraph or some other extra type of investigation. This is something that isn't listed on most applications or posted for the public to see. This does help seperate certain behavior types that have been shown to fail. I only say that since they wouldn't test people this way if they haven't seen a repeat in patterns through the years. They need people they can trust. To give you an example about what i'm talking about think about this:

You walk into a packed bar. How fast can you pick out the people who are totally drunk? The ones who are totally not having a good time? The ones who are going to start a fight? Or the ones who are there to hook up? If you said yes to any of those you can imagine what trained people can spot during an interview or what they can see if they were to follow you around or ask about you. If you aren't one of the people who make noise you should be alright. This is just my opinion, but I think you understand what i'm getting at.

Yeah- the required clearance is based upon one's billet. You may deal with high level stuff all the time, or rarely, but in the event that that stuff is present you don't have to leave or be escorted constantly. If anything that you haven't been "read on" to is present, then you'll have to leave the area till the discussion is over, or the material is no longer present. Generally speaking, you're read on to the highest level that you need to do your job, and nothing more.

Originally posted by NJ Mooch

Certain positions require a polygraph or some other extra type of investigation. This is something that isn't listed on most applications or posted for the public to see. This does help seperate certain behavior types that have been shown to fail. I only say that since they wouldn't test people this way if they haven't seen a repeat in patterns through the years. They need people they can trust. To give you an example about what i'm talking about think about this:

Just to clarify more for the others, a polygraph would be used to screen for disqualifying traits, not "this guy has no conscience so he'd be perfect for this assignment."

GT100FV:

Heh. You replied about like I would have right down the line.

A lot of this stuff is mega-boring, most of the rest is tedium and making sure you aren't violating some nit picking rule. Oh, and getting your SCIF audited.

Wondering if you ought to turn down jobs that require a lifestyle. Turning down Navy jobs (some) because of ONI.

Everyone seems to think you sit around rubbing your hands together and going "Nya ha ha!" while you create the evil death ray. Or that you're a bunch of Jack Bauers. I've occasionally told people "you know the guy you never see that delivers the car with the guns in the trunk to the truck stop and catches a crosstown bus back to the shop? That's me, on a good day."

Some projects are fun. Some actually are a hoot. 90% of any of them get s--tcanned on the drawing board. Maybe 95%. So you put in a ton of time, fill out a million forms, have people prying into your life, fill out endless foreign contact forms on vacation, screw up your family life, then you have maybe a 5% chance that what you put in all the time on will even see the light of day. Maybe.

Worse is when you do it, and all the stuff your team worked on is back-doored through another company. I've seen our stuff come out UC years later as "invented by an Israeli company", it even had the tool marks on the plastic in the same place. So you don't even get bragging rights. What's up with that, I don't know.

We have a new tack. Sometimes we figure out what the next step might be and develop it ourselves (to some extent) on our own dime. It's easier than trying to pitch it to them up front and then running the project under security. Just walk in and demo it, then get "other funding" to complete it. It's easier to do all the feasibility studies and project planning when you can talk to people. Though I have noticed it's sort of pissing them off.

For those of us who work in this arena, isn't it funny how you can spot the BS artists like dangler and johnsky from a mile away? I swear, 95% of my posts on this board are just to debunk people who pretend to have some inside knowledge, but are really just spewing the same "sci-fi" stuff they imagine must be happening. I've worked in SCI and SAP security for both the AF and industry for almost 10 years now.

Trust me, this crap you are hearing about "secret" government workers being mindless drones or psychotic rambo types is as far from the truth as possible. I've met almost every kind of "secret" government employee at one time or another and for the most part they are just normal guys with special skills. As a matter of fact, your neighbor might be one of them and you'd probably never know.

The government isn't looking for psychotics, regardless of their skills, because what the government wants most is STABILITY. All those investigations and polygraphs we take are designed to make sure the person is completely and utterly stable. Bad credit, drug use, arrests... All of which are derogatory information that could be grounds for denying a clearance. They're also all indicators of unstable people who can't control their spending, can't resist using drugs, and make poor choices. The government wants to know that you're not going to snap one day and decide to expose all sorts of sensitive information for fame, revenge or money. They want the guy who lives in a suburb, has a wife and kids, drives a sensible car, and is proud to help his country in any way he can.

Originally posted by Freeyourmind775


Finally, Glyph, all of the branchs degrade the other branchs behind closed doors and in training. We probably use the same jokes, just different branch names in place of other branch names. Then again, i'm not sure who the Air force can make fun of, not many Military organizations use a BICYCLE for a PT test...

hahahah thats so true hahaha. i forgot about the AF PT tests

StevexO
The government isn't looking for psychotics, regardless of their skills, because what the government wants most is STABILITY.

truth



[edit on 3-1-2007 by Glyph_D]

Hate to break it to you, but the AF stopped using the bike test about 3 years ago....Now its a mile and a half run, push ups, sit ups, and waist measurement....pretty much in line with the other branches of service.

Originally posted by PokeyJoe
Hate to break it to you, but the AF stopped using the bike test about 3 years ago....Now its a mile and a half run, push ups, sit ups, and waist measurement....pretty much in line with the other branches of service.

thats fine, but when i was in, it was still goin on and we eat it up. i remember the first time i heard of their pt test, it blew my mind.

**not a pt test**meanwhile i was haveing to run 3-5 miles in full gear with a alice pak weighing 70-100 lbs (depending on what our CO felt like). ah the good ol days

i wouldnt go as far as say its in line with other branches...but we need not argue over it, its cool they got rid of the bike mile.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by Glyph_D]

I know the Navy is going to throw about $40K at me when i re-up so I dont take my behind somewhere else and work as a civilian contractor. The background investigations are too expensive for them just to let you go...