The whole Planet X theory

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
The Sumerians do say it's a planet, but it's a spaceship, just like the Dogon said the tenth moon was the spaceship.

Okay. So what's the Sumerian word for "space ship"?

And yes they knew that our solar system had 9 planets, that you can also see just by looking at the fact that the specifically say that the 12th planet isn't from our solar system...

Perhaps those people back then really know a bit more then we think they knew....

And perhaps Sitchin is making it up:
www.ramtops.co.uk...

Here's the FAQ about Sumerians:
members.bellatlantic.net...

A layman takes on Sitchin. Note the ". Instead of quoting standard translations for Biblical verses, Sitchin makes up his own translations, based on his interpretation of "the parallel Sumerian and Akkadian texts/tales". Unfortunately, he is using those verses to support his interpretation of those texts.
Right away, we're in deep academic doo-doo. He's let us know he's going to twist the translations around to support his thesis."

www.geocities.com...

And this one, which talks about how he ignores the ancient texts and "corrects" them when they don't fit his theories:
www.kmatthews.org.uk...

This one talks about the science behind why he's wrong:
www.kmatthews.org.uk...

A nice long section of debunking :
www.ianlawton.com...

..and a discussion of Sitchin's manipulating Bible translation selections and chopping quotes to make his theories fit:
www.ianlawton.com...
www.ianlawton.com...

And then there's the stuff at Hall of Ma'at:
www.thehallofmaat.com

I have a couple hundred more of these that go into individual points about him. Furthermore, a lot of this stuff is something you can check for yourself (you can VERY easily see that he's manipulating the Bible to "prove" his point... that just takes reading any online Bible and comparing it to Sitchin's works.)

Byrd

You are attacking the interpretation of the twelfth planet, the interpretation of Genesis etc.

I attack the interpretation of Sitchin also because I neither believe it is a real planet.

Fact however is that the Sumerians did believe in the 12th planet, did say that those were the names, were really an advanced civilisation etc.

You are right when you attack the interpretation, but you are not right when you attack the information which was really there.

There is no doubt that the Sumerians believed that their ancestors were aliens, and that they thought those beings came from that 12th planet, that's fact that they believed it.

I am trying to see beyond the interpretation of Sitchin, because I neither believe it is a real planet. I however make a connection with the tenth moon of the Dogontribe, that's one reason why I believe the planet is a spaceship.

You are saying the whole theory doesn't fit because you don't believe in the planet, but you aren't trying to find out what it really was...

Fact stays that they believed in beings from that 12th planet, and that they really rapidly became a technical advanced civilisation.

That's not to be interpreted, that is what comes directly from those texts which are thousands of years old, the artefacts etc.

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Are you really going to throw a theory away just because you don't like the interpretation of it, while the information itself is a fact?

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remember I neither agree with Sitchin about the real 12th planet, but I do know the facts, and those cannot be ignored, certainly not because of the interpretation of one person (while it doesn't look like that you have any problem in throwing all the facts away just because of the interpretation).

I hope we still can talk about it, I will after this also post a topic about what Sacret-texts.com (skeptic) says about it, and then my vision about it... so perhaps you will see that I just have the feeling that the interpretation of Sitchin is the point... not the facts themselves.

Hope to speak to you soon

Nibiru the 12th planet

www.sacred-texts.com...

Introduction
This is a good sceptic site, it gives good information and also says the week points in the theory of Sitchin (I can name a few other weaknesses by the way) about the Sumerians knowledge and the 12th planet.

The contents of the site itself
It says that the Sumerians were probably (as far as archaeological knowledge can reveal) the first civilisation 6,000 years ago, which culture almost exploded overnight. Sumer is a list of �firsts� and you will therefore also see in which the Sumerians were the first ones, like the first method of writing, the first library etc.

To support the thesis that the Sumerians did have highly advanced astronomical knowledge Sitchin points towards the Greek which knew the precession of the equinoxes and to understand this phenomenon a person must have data which is just as old (about 2,000 years), which leads us back to the Sumerians.

After this a lot of information about the knowledge of the Sumerians is summed up like that their �dub� is synonym for the 360 degrees and �the arch of heaven�, that a calendar of the Sumerians dating back to 4,4000 B.C. acknowledged the precessional shift, and that their 12 based numbering system which was synonymous for the planets known to them.

That they meant the planets themselves is also confirmed by the description of the planets, which says that it has orbits and gravitational force (in a primitive manner).

The 12th planet, the asteroid belt and mankind
The 12th planet, while going to our solar system, gave Pluto also it�s particular orbit, according to Sitchin. Then there is a piece about the collision with the other planet, which supposedly had created the asteroid belt. This does he support with Genesis. This happened before men were created, so Sitchin says the Nefilim gave them this knowledge. The Nefilim worked in mines, and build men so they didn�t have to work in the mines anymore. Men was build to work for the Gods (which he does support by the translation of a text).

What does this theory explain
It could explain the rapid rise and technical powers of the Sumerian civilisation.

The weaknesses of the theory
1. How could life evolve on a planet which is far away from Pluto is a question.
2. Sitchin goes to far in describing the technology etc. of the beings from the 12th planet.
3. He does make it seem like it is fact, while it isn�t proven.

My view
All the weaknesses which this site mentions are real weaknesses of Sitchins theory. I would also give the weakness (which hasn�t even been mentioned) that Marduk (the 12th planet) collided with the planet Tiamat which made the asteroid belt. After such a collision it is almost impossible to keep the orbit which it had, and a planet cannot split in all kind of pieces. You also have to say that in Genesis says that the collision also created earth, while we know earth has been here for over 5 billion years now.

www.diagnosis2012.co.uk...
After reading this site you can draw a connection between the �tenth moon� of the Dogontribe and the 12th planet of the Sumerians. If we would say that the 12th planet is a metaphor for a spaceship on which the beings lived, it would also make sense that the so-called 12th planet would have a almost 100% elliptical orbit.

Weakness number 1. would become invalid. Number 2. and 3. are big mistakes of Sitchin himself, but don�t result the information which we have about the Sumerians themselves (he just interpreters them as he chooses). The coming of aliens would explain the rapid rise and technical powers of the Sumerians and fit�s also in the other religions. The question remains from which planet does that spaceship come (if it�s not Nibiru). It�s clear it comes from out of our solar system (as the Sumerians themselves say), and if we are going to say that the Gods of the Sumerians were the same as the Gods of the Mayans, Egyptians, Dogontribe, Islam and followers of Christ we would have to say they came from the Sirius system.

I neither agree with the interpretation of Sitchin just like you don't, but the facts themselves about the civilisation and their beliefs stay the same....

You can't dispose a theory because a person interpretets it differently then you think is right,

Greetz

Ps. I must say the sites you gave are good

www.kmatthews.org.uk...

But if I may say something... this is again an attack to the interpretation. Just look at the facts that the Sumerians believed in Gods from Nibiru... that is fact. That Sitchin is going to say that there were 12 leading Gods... that's the interpretational part.

But uhm... this text is also a bit excentric, just like Sitchin. Just look:

None of the ancient texts seems to treat them as anything other than divinities: there is no suggestion that they are physical visitors to this world.

While every text says just the opposite... they were beings from Nibiru...

The number 12 was very significant to the Sumerians, representing the number of their principle gods which were synonymous with the planets known to them (they included the Moon and the Sun in their count). Does this mean that the Sumerians were aware of all of the planets known to us today, or was it just coincidence?

I think you know what I mean... Sitchin is going over the top as Sacret-texts also says, but that site which you gave does also... the 12 numbers were synonymous to the planets. But your site is making it look like there was no reason to think that they were fysical, while they themselves said that the beings came from the 12th planet...

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Let's just attack the interpretation... but the interpretation doesn't change the facts... and I am just trying to make those facts logical, because I know that it couldn't be a real planet.

sorry for the many posts, but I thought it was necessary speak to you soon

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Fact however is that the Sumerians did believe in the 12th planet, did say that those were the names, were really an advanced civilisation etc.
...

That's not to be interpreted, that is what comes directly from those texts which are thousands of years old, the artefacts etc.

Please point to the texts and the hymns that show the names of the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth planets. I can show you the texts for the other planets. If they had named and seen the other planets, there would have been hymns to them.

That's proof. Some website by someone who doesn't know Ur from Chaldea ain't proof.

[Edited on 18-11-2003 by Byrd]

while you are at it, debunk "god" as well. there is not much evidence that "he" exists.

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Just look at the facts that the Sumerians believed in Gods from Nibiru... that is fact.

No, they didn't. Here's the rundown on how the Sumerian gods came to be:
www.ezresult.com...

And "Nibiru" is a "throne name" and not the name of a place or a god.

That Sitchin is going to say that there were 12 leading Gods... that's the interpretational part.

None of the ancient texts seems to treat them as anything other than divinities: there is no suggestion that they are physical visitors to this world.

And that is correct. The ancient texts treat them only as divinities. And there are not 12 leading gods. There are four leading gods.
members.bellatlantic.net...

www.nationmaster.com...

Each city also had its own leading god and some had variations on the names and powers of the chief deities.

While every text says just the opposite... they were beings from Nibiru...

No. "Nibiru" is a name. Something like "Your Majesty." It is not a place. It's a title. It is mentioned once in the entire Sumerian texts, and it is very clearly a throne name ("He shall be called .... (and a long list of, if memory serves, 100 or so titles is given to Marduk)")

The home of the gods of Sumeria is Dilmun:
www.nationmaster.com...

It's analogous to the Garden of Eden.

The number 12 was very significant to the Sumerians, representing the number of their principle gods which were synonymous with the planets known to them (they included the Moon and the Sun in their count). Does this mean that the Sumerians were aware of all of the planets known to us today, or was it just coincidence?

Then you're going to be terribly disappointed when I tell you that the Sumerian number system was based on 60... not 12 (you can see the numbers themselves on this page) :
www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk...

(and here -- sexagesimal means "based on 60")
it.stlawu.edu...

...or you can even look it up in your local dictionaries.

Byrd

We give a little historical background to these events in our article Babylonian mathematics. Certainly in terms of their number system the Babylonians inherited ideas from the Sumerians and from the Akkadians. From the number systems of these earlier peoples came the base of 60, that is the sexagesimal system.

It clearly says that the number systems of the Sumerians were the ancestor number systems of the 60 numbers, not that they themselves had 60 numbers.

Just like sacret-texts.com confirmes that they had a 12 number system. No 60 numbers.

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Byrd

We give a little historical background to these events in our article Babylonian mathematics. Certainly in terms of their number system the Babylonians inherited ideas from the Sumerians and from the Akkadians. From the number systems of these earlier peoples came the base of 60, that is the sexagesimal system.

It clearly says that the number systems of the Sumerians were the ancestor number systems of the 60 numbers, not that they themselves had 60 numbers.

Just like sacret-texts.com confirmes that they had a 12 number system. No 60 numbers.

like we now use a 10-base system.
the use of a 12-base system confirms their belief in that their gods had 6 fingers on each hand.
so, the sumerians didn't develop their own mathematical system, they were tought the system by someone else. wonder who that could be?

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
From the number systems of these earlier peoples came the base of 60, that is the sexagesimal system.

It clearly says that the number systems of the Sumerians were the ancestor number systems of the 60 numbers, not that they themselves had 60 numbers.

Uh, no. The article says they had a BASE 60 number system. That's what I said. We have a BASE 10 number system.

Sumerians used base 60 (the 60 was our equivalent of 100). And if you looked at the reference, what you saw was a partial base 10 system (the numbers from 1-9 are single, and then they add a new symbol to mean 'ten plus'.) When they hit 60, then they added another symbol which is analogous to our 100.

www.psinvention.com...

Wikipedia has a nice discussion of this, and includes information on the base 60 system and says it's used by the Sumerians:
en.wikipedia.org...

Just like sacret-texts.com confirmes that they had a 12 number system. No 60 numbers.

They need to check their sources... or the Encyclopedia Britannica. It was base 60.

Darkspace shut up. It sucks when some-one gives arguments and you support them and it seems to be not right, does it?

"Enki and the World Order"
The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees.

No, Dilhum wasn't Nibiru, Dilhum was a place on earth. Organizing the world order.

[Edited on 18-11-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa

www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk...
[Edited on 18-11-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

LeenBekkemaa : i do not like it, when other people tell me to shut up.

by the way, did you read the entire page?? i did.

Ancient number systems
Babylonian Numerals by J.J. O'Connor and E.F. Robertson
www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk...
The Babylonians inherited ideas from the Sumerians and from the Akkadians. From the number systems of these earlier peoples came the base of 60, that is the sexagesimal system. Yet neither the Sumerian nor the Akkadian system was a positional system, and this advance by the Babylonians was undoubtedly their greatest achievement in terms of developing the number system.

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The Babylonians inherited ideas from the Sumerians and from the Akkadians. From the number systems of these earlier peoples came the base of 60, that is the sexagesimal system.

From the number of these earlier people (Sumerians and the Akkadians) came the 60 base number system from the Babylonians

Yet neither the Sumerian nor the Akkadian system was a positional system, and this advance by the Babylonians was undoubtedly their greatest achievement in terms of developing the number system.

The Babylonians did develop the number system to the 60 base number system. That was their achievement. The number system was developed.

Knowledge of planets

The Sumerian tablets are dated around 4000 BC and accurately relate the stories of celestial planets that exist in our solar system complete with their moons, their dominate gaseous or aquatic features, their colors and their sizes all of these being accurate.

The tablets even record the existence of Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus. These are planets undiscovered by our scientists until the last three centuries, Pluto being discovered in this one.

Now you might say that this is Chrystallinks (even though it is a reliable site) but it was given as a link by

Rutgers university

Sumerian myths

These clay tablets relate an amazing story � of gods who created the heavens and the Earth, and physically descended to the Earth at the beginning of time, in order to lay the foundations of the Sumerian cities. In those days, the gods alone had occupied the great land of Sumer, but soon they grew weary of their work and set about creating mankind to release themselves from the burden of their toil. The result was the Sumerian �people�, known by the enigmatic title �the black-headed ones�.

Wasn't this neither what the Sacret-texts.com site confirmed...




[Edited on 18-11-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

This is an image directly gotten from this site which says that it is a hoax (and I have also seen now that you have it under the "known hoaxes" area on this forum).

When I look at that site I know one thing for sure: you guys have put this one under the "known hoaxes" area because the idea of a real (litteral) planet cannot be... that site also gives allmost all the arguments against a real planet.

The first argument is that they didn't had telescopes, and the aliens would have told them about the other moons etc... and then a talk about that the aliens didn't knew the difference between the sun and planets etc.

www.diagnosis2012.co.uk...
The Dogontribe also called the spaceship of the aliens "the tenth moon". And if you are going to say that the Dogontribe is fake, then think again, I can give a lot of arguments why they are real, and I can also point to the Bible etc. that the vehicles of God aren't described as beautiful and clearly as you hoped they would be.

The whole site is giving arguments against Nibiru as being a real planet, if it is however a spaceship, on which the aliens lived... then were would you be with your arguments and the idea of a "known hoax".

It would explain how they could live on that "planet" it would explain the straight orbit from the other solar system, it could explain why the "planet" isn't shown on those drawings, it does terminate all the arguments concerning it to be a real planet .

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PlanetX is under the "known hoaxes" list just becauses the interpretation of the information isn't correct, the information itself is however.

It has just been placed underneeth "known hoaxes" because the interpretation cannot be right, the information about Nibiru itself however is correct, and thousands of years old.

I have the feeling that this is kinda a good reason to let PlanetX disappear from the "known hoaxes" list at
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But I also send already an e-mail to Ultra_phoenix and I hope the moderators will discuss this, and that you can find yourself in the fact that it's just the interpretation which you attack, not the information itself which is thousands of years old.

Greetz,

Leen

[Edited on 18-11-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
"Enki and the World Order"
The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees.

No, Dilhum wasn't Nibiru, Dilhum was a place on earth. Organizing the world order.

That's right. The Sumerian gods lived on Earth, in a place named Dilhum. They sent the servants to Dilhum because that's where the lazy gods needed servants to come do their work. They did not live on Nibiru because Nibiru isn't a place name. It's a title (like "your Majesty.")

The English don't live on "your Majesty". Sumerian gods don't live on Nibiru.


Now... in case you got confused, "Nibiru" is not the same as "Nibru."

Enki does go to a place called "Nibru" (www.piney.com... and www.piney.com...) which is very clearly stated as a city.

It ain't no planet: "As for all the great rulers who increased the wealth of the city of Nibru -- why did they disappear?"

It says "city" right there in the "Lament For Nibru" text. And it says it's inhabited by humans, not gods.

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Yet neither the Sumerian nor the Akkadian system was a positional system, and this advance by the Babylonians was undoubtedly their greatest achievement in terms of developing the number system.

The Babylonians did develop the number system to the 60 base number system. That was their achievement. The number system was developed.

Erm... no. You may have misread the key term "Positional system." They already had a base 60 mathematical system (and I'm not sure why you're bringing the Babylonians into it, since they were an older/later branch. We were discussing Sumerians.)

What the Babylonians brought about was an ordering of the numbers ("the 'ones' are always the right-most digit, and the 'tens' are next to those, and the 'hundreds' are next to those.")

They used the base 60 developed by the Sumerians, as all your articles point out.

And nobody used a base 12.