I can't accept hell

Being a "good person" is not enough. "There is none righteous, no, not one." and "there is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are death." We don't achieve eternal life by good works (alone) but by faith (and obedience) to the Living YHWH. The Bible says we must repent (literally: change our mind), believe in the Master Yeheshua.


What you just said there is purely Lutheran beliefs. Those are the words of Martin Luther. I got the impression that you were Lutheran because of what you said.

Originally posted by whitewave
Wildcat,
I am not a Lutheran and don't even know what are the tenets of the Lutheran faith. Also, I haven't been associated with the RCC since I reached the age of reason (a little catholic humor there). I could write an entire treatise on the errors of the RCC but that is not the title of this thread. The OP was about the humble one's inability/unwillingness to accept hell. My response was, basically, that he didn't have to. He is wise to seek the answer to the question of hell in the scriptures. His statement that "you either believe all of it or you don't believe any of it" showed maturity and sound judgment.
I am not familiar with your beliefs about hell or on what you base your beliefs. I consider the Bible to be the only authority on the subject although other peoples' opinions are always of interest to me.
Since most people professing religious/spiritual beliefs have very deeply personal and strongly held opinions in that realm, it is always prudent to approach any subject concerning such matters gingerly and with compassion. Also, beware the knee-jerk response. Many a well-meaning preacher has been kicked in the shins by it.

Did I seem offensive? I wasn't trying to. You must of misunderstood what I said, after the first comma I was not saying anything to you I was talking to everyone.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by wildcat]

No, Brother, you didn't seem offensive. You seemed slightly offended and I was trying to smooth any ruffled feathers.
Thanks for educating me on the Lutheran belief but the scriptures I quoted were from the Bible, not Luther; although he may have quoted them at some time, too.
Many denominations are quick to point to the RCC as "Babylon" but the book of Revelation describes Babylon as "the mother of harlots" so what does that make the denominations that came out of/broke off from the RCC?
I haven't studied the different denominational doctrines much but I do attend "church" meetings with people that ask me to go to their place of worship. So far, they all seem to be pretty much in error on a lot of doctrinal issues. I don't like to argue doctrine so I don't mention it while I'm there-just don't return to any more meetings.
I've been encouraged to see more Christians becoming disillusioned with the whole religious hierarchy and structure. Not that I'm happy to see them disillusioned but heartened to see them doing something about it. More and more believers are starting to meet in small groups in each others' homes, actually studying the Word for themselves rather than entrusting their personal relationship with their savior to some guy they barely know who runs off with the church secretary and all the funds in the treasury. Out of this "revival" has come much enlightenment concerning true doctrine. One of them being the realization that hell is not what we've all been told.

I hope there is a hell. There are a lot of people on this planet (past and present) who need to go to it. I would sincerely hope that a person could not live a horrible life of evil deeds and then get some free trip to paradise. I’m sure there are some “gray” areas that a lot of people fall into but if there is a God then I’ll trust his or her judgment.

I've heard people joke about hell with statements like "when I get to hell, I'm taking over the joint!" Their concept of hell is unrestrained sin without consequence-pretty similar to the life they're currently living. They "hope there is a hell" too.
If your whole life you're raised to believe a certain way/behave a certain way and all around you the majority of people also believe and behave in a certain way, then you'd certainly consider anyone saying that such beliefs and behavior are erroneous to be "abnormal". We live in a thoroughly corrupted age. I don't even like to watch the nightly news anymore because I hate to think that my fellow man has fallen to such depths of degredation as I hear reported.
The evangel (gospel) of Christ's sacrifice for our sin has been preached to this generation and to this country and we also have a conscience so that we are all without excuse. The incorrigibly wicked (those who won't accept Christ no matter how many decades they are given or how ideal the circumstances of their "trial") will be utterly destroyed in the lake of fire which was never meant for human beings in the first place. This is shown by the verse that says at the end of the 1000 years (when Satan is bound) he will be loosed again for the final trial in which many (who had plenty of time to understand the errors of their ways) will still choose to reject YHWH. They are incorrigibly wicked and it is YHWH's mercy to put them out of their misery. It's not hell in the sense of a place of eternal punishment/torture but eternal extinction-the Second Death.

Originally posted by whitewave
No, Brother, you didn't seem offensive. You seemed slightly offended and I was trying to smooth any ruffled feathers.
Thanks for educating me on the Lutheran belief but the scriptures I quoted were from the Bible, not Luther; although he may have quoted them at some time, too.
Many denominations are quick to point to the RCC as "Babylon" but the book of Revelation describes Babylon as "the mother of harlots" so what does that make the denominations that came out of/broke off from the RCC?
I haven't studied the different denominational doctrines much but I do attend "church" meetings with people that ask me to go to their place of worship. So far, they all seem to be pretty much in error on a lot of doctrinal issues. I don't like to argue doctrine so I don't mention it while I'm there-just don't return to any more meetings.
I've been encouraged to see more Christians becoming disillusioned with the whole religious hierarchy and structure. Not that I'm happy to see them disillusioned but heartened to see them doing something about it. More and more believers are starting to meet in small groups in each others' homes, actually studying the Word for themselves rather than entrusting their personal relationship with their savior to some guy they barely know who runs off with the church secretary and all the funds in the treasury. Out of this "revival" has come much enlightenment concerning true doctrine. One of them being the realization that hell is not what we've all been told.

Lutherans follow the bible strictly-they believe everything in it is true but Catholics don't. Martin Luther probably said those words because they were in the bible. I was not offended at all.

I got a question for all of you who say hell is not a place of punishment,
why did Jesus say it is a place where there will be gnashing of teeth?

Doesn't sound very pleasant to me.

Also the story of lazarus, it is explained that lazarus is in fire.

As a teen I got really sick of going to the Baptist church we attended and being preached at and yelled at about how awful we all were and that we were all surely going to hell. They made it sound as if God was really mean and angry and just the least little thing would send us all to hell.

I don't attend that church anymore and have'nt for years.

The God I believe in is all merciful, full of understanding and love, and as long as you're not truly evil, I don't think you'll end up in hell.

Just try to be a good person, love others and never try to deliberately hurt other people.

Originally posted by elaine


As a teen I got really sick of going to the Baptist church we attended and being preached at and yelled at about how awful we all were and that we were all surely going to hell. They made it sound as if God was really mean and angry and just the least little thing would send us all to hell.

I don't attend that church anymore and have'nt for years.

The God I believe in is all merciful, full of understanding and love, and as long as you're not truly evil, I don't think you'll end up in hell.

Just try to be a good person, love others and never try to deliberately hurt other people.

True, but you forgot the most important ingredient, faith in Jesus Christ.

True, but you forgot the most important ingredient, faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus was the perfect example of how we ought to live our lives. But what about the faiths that don't even know about Jesus?

What if a very good hearted wonderful person of another religion besides Christianity died?

You think they'd go to hell?

Originally posted by elaine

True, but you forgot the most important ingredient, faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus was the perfect example of how we ought to live our lives. But what about the faiths that don't even know about Jesus?

What if a very good hearted wonderful person of another religion besides Christianity died?

You think they'd go to hell?

People always try to say that, but if you believe that, then you are rejecting the other stuff the bible has to say.

God is a just judge, and he will not judge someone unjustly who hasn't heard of jesus.

God is a just judge, and he will not judge someone unjustly who hasn't heard of jesus.

Good answer HumbleOne.

Being one of those people who says that hell is not a place, I guess I'll answer the question. One of the difficulties with many in reading the story of the rich man and Lazarus is that of recognizing it as a parable. Regarding it as a literal statement involves several absurdities. 1) the rich man went to "hell" because he enjoyed many earthly blessings and gave nothing but crumbs to Lazarus. Nothing is said about his wickedness. 2) Lazarus was blessed, not because he lacked wickedness or trusted in YHWH or was sincere and full of faith but simply because he was poor and sick. If you interpret these verses literally, you can only conclude that unless we are poor beggars full of sores we will never enter into eternal bliss. Or worse, if we now have clothes and plenty to eat every day, we are sure of eternal torment. 3) Also, in keeping with the literal translation, Abraham's bosom being the coveted spot in the so-called afterlife, how many of the earth's sick and poor would he be able to hold?
Recognizing Luke 16:19-31 as a parable requires acknowledging that in a parable, the thing said is never the thing meant. We know this from the Lord's own explanations of His parables. When He said "wheat" He meant "children of the kingdom"; when He said "tares" He meant "the children of the devil"; when He said "reapers", it was understood to mean His servants, etc. (see Matt. 13) The same classes were represented by different symbols in different parables.
In this parable the "rich man" represents a CLASS and "Lazarus" represents ANOTHER class. Abraham represents G_D, the "rich man" represents the Jewish nation (the Jews had "fared sumptuously" being the especial recipients of YHWH's favor). Lazarus represents the outcasts from Divine favor under the Law, who, sin-sick, hungered and thirsted after righteousness. Truth hungry Gentiles constituted the Lazarus class. But there came a great dispensational change is Israel's history when as a nation they rejected and crucified the Son of G_D. Then the promise of royalty ceased to be theirs The "rich man" died to all his special advantages and soon found himself in a cast-off condition-in tribulation and affliction where he has lived ever since. Lazarus also died; the condition of the Gentile changed to being carried to Abraham's bosom. Abraham is represented as the father of the faithful. Heirs of all the promises made to Abraham are the children of promise and are counted for "the seed". "Which seed is Christ"; and "if ye be Christ's, then are (believers) Abraham's seed (children) and heirs according the (Abrahamic) promise.
The Lord added a further figure: "In hell (the grave) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off", etc. The dead cannot lift up their eyes or see nor converse for it is distinctly stated, "There is no work nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave". The dead are described as those who "go down into silence." (Ecc. 9:10, Psa. 115:17) The Lord wanted to show that great sufferings or "torments" would be added to the Jews as a nation after their national dissolution and buried amonst the other peoples dead in trespasses and sins and that they would plead in vain for release and comfort at the hand of the formerly despised Lazarus class (Gentiles).
Two thousand years of history has born out this parabolic prophecy as evidenced by the fact that the Jews have been in distress of mind over their casting out from the favor G_D and the loss of their temple, and the unrelenting persecution by all classes, including professed Christians. It was from the Christians that the Jews expected mercy, as expressed in the parable-"Send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue"; but the great gulf fixed between them hinders that. The "great gulf" represents the wide gulf between the gospel church and the Jew. The Jew clings to the Law which condems and torments, the Christians enjoying grace, joy, comfort and peace as sons of G_D.
G_D still recognizes the relationship established in His covenant and addresses them as children of the covenant. (v. 25) Although the parable mentions no bridging of this "great gulf", other portions of scripture indicate that is was to be "fixed" only throughout the evangel age and that at its close the "rich man", having received the measurement of punishment for his sins, will walk out of his fiery troubles over the bridge of G_D's promises yet unfulfilled to that nation.

The hour is now coming in the which all that are in their graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth: they that have done good unto the resurrection of life (those whose trial is past and those who were judged worthy of life, will be raised perfect-the faithful in ages past to perfect human life, the overcomers of the gospel age to perfect life as divine beings), and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of judgment." These are awakened to judgment to receive a course of discipline and correction as the necessary means for perfecting, or otherwise, their condemnation to the second death.
The man who, in this life, by fraud and injustice, accumulated and hoarded great wealth, which was scattered to the winds when he died, will undoubtedly awake to mourn his loss and bewail his poverty. He will be utterly incapable under the new order of things to repeat unlawful measures to accumulate a fortune. With many it will be a severe chastisement and a bitter experience to overcome the propensities to avarice, selfishness, pride, ambition and idleness, fostered and pampered for years in the present life.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth indeed. Still, whom the Lord loves He chastens. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and life; Turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die? (Ezek. 33:11)

Whitewave, i don't believe that hell is the eternal death, I dont know which one seems more cruel to you, sending someone to a place of seperation from god, or God snuffing someone out completly.

I still believe hell is an actual place, there is no other way to explain it otherwise when you read certain bible passages.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation20:2-15

However, you could also say it is the second death by theses passages:

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation20:2-15

I don't know, it's hard to say which it is.

What you said about no one would be able to enter heaven unless we are all poor, this has some truth in it, for the Lord himself spoke about this to his disciples:

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. Mark 10:17-31

[edit on 3-12-2006 by thehumbleone]

Humble One,
The story in Mark is a good one, kind of funny and shows Christ's sense of humor as well as His tact. When the young man came and wanted to be a part of the group, Christ didn't say, "look, dude, if I'd wanted you in the group of apostles, I would have called you." He pointed out the young man's unworthiness for such a calling in a very diplomatic way. Christ told him to keep all the commandments which the young man said he did. Christ didn't say, "oh really?", He said, "go and sell all that you have...." which made the young man very sad and he went away. Obviously he didn't keep ALL the commandments because one of the commandments is 'thou shalt not covet'. Also, when He explained to the apostles how difficult it was for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, the apostles were astonished so Christ cleared it up for them. He said "How difficult it is for those who TRUST in riches to enter the kingdom of heaven. Obviously, you can't trust in riches if you don't have them so only the rich would be in the category of those endangered by "trusting in riches".
As for Rev.20:10, the word translated "tormented" should have been rendered "tested" or "examined". The evil deeds and teachings of the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be examined forever by the righteous and will be recognized as rightly deserving destruction.
The Greek word tartaroo only occurs once in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2:4) and is translated hell. "God spared not the angels who sinned 'but cast them down to hell' (tartaroo) and delivered them into chains of darknes to be reserved unto judgment. Evidently the translators were at a loss to know how to translate the word but concluded they knew where the evil angels ought to be so they decided to send them to "hell". The word tartaroo is closely related to the word tartarus, a Grecian mythology name for a dark abyss or prison. Tartaroo seems to refer more to an act than to a PLACE (a tartarus). The fall of the angels who sinned was from honor and dignity into dishonor and condemnation. The the thought seems to be: "God spared not the angels who sined but degraded them and delivered them into chains of darkness." This is in agreement with other scriptures and we know this because the fallen spirits frequented the earth in the days of our Lord and the Apostles. So, they were not down in some place, but "down" in the sense of being degraded from former honor and liberty and restrained under darkness as by a chain.
The words translated "tormented" and "torment" in Rev. 20:10, 14:10, 11 are the Greek words basanizo and basanismos, the former a verb, the latter a noun. All Greek lexicographers agree that the first meaning of the verb is "to test," "to examine". Its second meaning, derived from the ancient custom of testing persons by torture (kind of like holding your feet to the fire to get the truth out of you,etc.), and its third meaning is to torture or torment. Acts 22:24 gives an illustration of how ancient examinations were held by scourging-torture. The noun basanismos has the same 3 meanings in noun form. The verses in Rev. should have used the first meaning, not the third. In Rev. 14:10 the thought seems to be that the DESTRUCTION (not LIFE in torment) of the institutions symbolized by the Beast and the False Prophet will be a very sore trial (test) to their devotees who believe these institutions to be divinely sanctioned whereas they are divinely disapproved. In Rev. 14:11, the meaning seems to be that the memory, history (smoke that is left after a thing passes away and ceases to be) of that sore trial of such devotees will eternall come up in men's minds. Similarly, in Rev. 20:10, eternally will the perfect minds of God's creatures found worthy of life examine the nature, character, fruits and history of the Devil, Beast and False Prophet. From their examination God's mercy and righteous judgment will be shown in that these 3 things are desrvedly in annihilation. If you realize that basanizo and basanismos are derived from the word basanos, a touchstone used as a means of testing and examining metals to determine their purity or their alloyedness, it will be helpful to a proper understanding of their signification.
Personally, an ETERNITY in torture is, I think, much worse than simply being blinked out of existence. The incorrigibly wicked will have had, after all, about a hundred years of instruction and guidance to get it right but even under the most favorable of circumstaces for being righteous, they will prefer evil. If you simply cease to exist you don't KNOW anything: no regret or guilt or shame or sorrow. That seems pretty merciful to me, considering they had every opportunity to change their ways.

Wildcat,
This is a little off topic and I struggled with the decision to even bring it up but it relates in that denominationalism is one of the systems comprising "Babylon" which is destroyed.
As i mentioned earlier, I don't know what the Lutherans (or many other denominations) believe but I do reject your statement that "they believe the Bible 100 %). If they did, they wouldn't call themselves "Lutherans". An example: if I am married to Mr. Smith, would it be at all appropriate for me to call myself Mrs. Jones? Sure, I may like the way that I think Mr. Jones maintains his lawn better than Mr. Smith but Mr. Jones is not my husband. We are CHRISTians, not LUTHERans or PRESBYTERYans, etc.
Many of the great men in times past, "spiritual giants", (who saw revelations in the scripture) were bold enough to present these doctrinal truths in an attempt to bring us all up from the apostacy that culminated in the RCC. "They shall in no wise lose their reward." We are thankful to these dear brothers who risked much to bring the pure word of G_D into the light in those Dark Ages. They were, however, CHRISTians-same as us, and we are not to "worship" them by calling ourselves by their names (or revealed doctrinal truths).
I have met devout lovers of Yeheshua in many denominational groups and don't condemn any of them. In fact, I am reluctant to share too much of these messages of scriptural clarity with them because once you know-you're responsible for that knowledge. It depends on their stage of growth in life and how ready they are to hear more. Of course, as in our own legal system: ignorance of the law is no excuse, if certain things SHOULD have been known, one is still accountable. Even the unsaved have a conscience to guide them.

Well maybe I worded it wrong, Martin Luther studied the bible and found many things that the RCC was doing which was not in the bible. I have a Lutheran friend who says everything in the bible is true. Plus I have some knowledge on Martin Luther.

This post topic is like one of the pebbles that was thrown at me, the ones that began to break the cold rock I was encased in for so long. I thought to myself .. "So only Christians goto heaven, not Jews and Muslims, not other people who live good moral lives, better lives than some Christians?" and the typical cold cut answer is yes, everyone goes to hell except the Christians. Which is such utter bull#, heres why. They say Jesus said "I am the way to the Kingdom".

Well, okay, I can handle that, that must be why the entire nativity story, Jesus' entire life story can be found in the Qu'ran, the Islamic holy book. His name is Isa in the Qu'ran. And yes, he still returns at the end of the world to slay the evildoers and deliver mankind. What, you didn't think muslims could have a belief system so close to that of christians? It's true.

And the Jews, always sad, waiting for the messiah to come? Thats because he already came once and they rejected him, but had they not rejected him .. who would save humanity and the earth at the end of the show? He had to be rejected so he could return, and when he does, even the Jews will say he is messiah. So all 3 religons will universally recognize him when he returns, this is important and I think everyone overlooks this very important point. Can you imagine what he would have to say to his flock, after all the religous-related killing that humans have done since the days when Jesus first walked the Earth?

His name will be unknown to us all. it says that in Revelation, John's Apocalypse. When jesus returns he will have a new name that no one knows, until the moment comes for his return.

As for hell and who goes there, the unbelievers go there. the unrepentant go there. the sinful who refuse to be saved go there. the idolaters go there too. But if you have true faith in the one God, regardless of sect, you will go to heaven. So that includes all people, christians muslims jews etc.

YHWH/Jehovah/Allah's one religon is called MONOTHEISM. This breaks into SECTS, one is called Zoroastrianism, one is called Hasidic Judaism, one is called Orthodox Judaism, one is called Catholic Christianity, one is called Orthodox Christianity, one is called Shia Islam, one is called Sunni Islam. There are more. These are all sects of the same religon to me. These are all branches of the same tree.

All the Old Testament Prophets as well as the New Testament Prophets(the greatest among symbolic equals would be Jesus in the flesh) and the Qu'ranic Prophets including Muhammad should all be praised and followed. It should all come together and unify. Rome Jerusalem and Mecca, 3 cities for 3 sects of 1 religon.

This radical message will be recieved by no one.

[edit on 12/3/2006 by runetang]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well,I am Christian as well,though certainly not an orthodox Christian. I personally don't believe in hell. To me it's just a scare tactic used as a method of control by the powers that be. Always remember, God is not a loser... Not even of spirits.

But Jesus described hell. Why have you choosen not to believe him?