I can't accept hell

Why must there be a hell?

I'm a christian so i do believe in it's existence, but i'm having a hard time trying to understand how a loving and merciful God Could make someone spend an eternity in such a place.

Do you think it's just that someone who lived a 60+ year life should suffer for all eternity just for not believing?

Even someone who was a criminal, i could see maybe 100 years of punishment, But all eternity? Seems a little harsh to me.

Please help me understand.

By the way, how do you like my avatar?

[edit on 29-11-2006 by thehumbleone]

I won't come here to tell you what to believe, but maybe if you re-thought what Heaven and Hell actually is then perhaps it wouldn't seem so bad to believers or non-believers. You never know, it might come as a revelation to you of just how wonderful the purpose of having two possible destinies is if you ponder what the purpose of each one actually is. A good place to start is to seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and role play of what Heaven is supposed to be if you were going to become a perfect God. Create a perfect Heaven in your minds eye, then hell will have a whole new meaning and purpose.

Well,I am Christian as well,though certainly not an orthodox Christian. I personally don't believe in hell. To me it's just a scare tactic used as a method of control by the powers that be. Always remember, God is not a loser... Not even of spirits.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well,I am Christian as well,though certainly not an orthodox Christian. I personally don't believe in hell. To me it's just a scare tactic used as a method of control by the powers that be. Always remember, God is not a loser... Not even of spirits.

How can you not believe in it if jesus said it existed?

Originally posted by thehumbleone

How can you not believe in it if jesus said it existed?

Well, since I personally think the bible has been severely tampered with, that is rather a moot point to me.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by thehumbleone

How can you not believe in it if jesus said it existed?

Well, since I personally think the bible has been severely tampered with, that is rather a moot point to me.

well if you're gonna believe that, then why not just say the whole bible is a fake and jesus is made up?

You either believe all of it is true, or none of it. ther is no "I believe this or that"
Either all of it is true or none of it, and i believe all of it is true.

Well when you think of God so negatively it's going to seem like our God is a horrible wrathful God. Which he is wrathfull, and should he not have the right? For someone to completely deny him of his glory, why should they be in heaven with him?

I think that you should think of it in more of a possitive way. It is so very easy to reach heaven as long as you believe and accept. Whether you're the worst sinner of all, you can still reach heaven. Unlike most other religions that have a God that will damn his followers eternally for making mistakes. Our God will forgive those mistakes, but for that, you must believe in him. To me it sounds completely rashional. Instead of being so simpathetic for the denyer of God, understand that they had to do nearly nothing to escape eternal damnation.

I apologize if I offended anyone who does not believe in scripture. I'm just stating what's on my mind.

Well when you think of God so negatively it's going to seem like our God is a horrible wrathful God.

Oh my, what unfair assessment...

Which he is wrathfull, and should he not have the right?

no he shouldn't, if a parent has a child, just because the parent made the child does not mean that they can torture and kill the child if it rebels.

For someone to completely deny him of his glory, why should they be in heaven with him?

Well, if I were an almighty creator of the world and chose who recieves eternal bliss and who recieves eternal torture, I would at least be kind enough to give a few signs that I exists. And I do mean real signs of divine caliber, not just ones interpreted to be a sign, yet easily rationalized through logic.

I think that you should think of it in more of a possitive way. It is so very easy to reach heaven as long as you believe and accept.

this is the christian blindfold (just my word not an official term), just kind of pulling a room divider across the history of god. on one side is all the bliss, kindness and forgiveness and on the other is the fire, brimstone, and pestilence. one side depicts god creating the world and all life and the other depicts him flooding the world and destroying all the life. its quite a feat of mental fortitude acually, to just completely force your mind to forget all of the intolerence, injustice and slavery in the bible just because society has matured to the point where that is no longer acceptable.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by daedalas]

Dear Humble One,
Take comfort. There is no place of eternal torment mentioned in the Bible. Hell literally means pit or grave. In that sense, we all go to "hell". Hell (sheol/hades) means the unconscious, oblivious condition of death, where all souls, good and bad, go at death, and from which only the awakening from death (resurrection) can deliver. YHWH, through Christ, ransoms all- not from eternal torture, but from the power of the grave. None, however, come forth until Yeshua (Jesus) calls them in the resurrection awakening at His Second Advent.
A few verses: The dead know not anything.; There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest.; In death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave (sheol) who shall give thee thanks; The grave (sheol) cannot praise thee: death cannot celebrate thee; Jesus poured out his soul unto death and descended into hell but his soul was not left in hell; The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence: his sons come to honor and he knoweth it not, and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
Hell is an old English word that simply means to hide or cover-helling potatoes meant putting them in pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.
When YHWH told Adam of sin's penalty (the soul that sinneth, it shall die) He did not say, "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt LIVE forever in torture," but He told him the truth: "thou shalt surely die (cease to exist). Contradicting God, Satan told the lie, "Ye shall not surely die" by which he has since deceived many into believing that the dead are not REALLY dead, but that at death they live on, and, without waiting for the resurrection day, go directly into heaven or into eternal torment-in direct opposition to Biblical teaching.
If the penalty for sin had been eternal torment, Yeshua would have had to suffer an eternity of torture to pay our debt but with His DYING breath He said, "it is finished."
Eventually "all that are in the graves shall hear his (Jesus') voice and shall come forth". When sheol/hades/the grave delivers up all who "sleep" (how the Bible refers to the pre-resurrection death state), sheol/hades/the grave will forever cease to exist.
Even mortal man would not consider throwing a live animal into a fire (unless psychotic or totally depraved) but degenerate Christianity has maligned YHWH's good nature and attributed to Him a character less charitable than mortal, fallen humanity. "Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker? Far be it from God, that he should do wickedness". (Job 4:17; 34; 10)

Whitewave, i sure hope you're right brother, cause i worry a lot about this sort of thing.

*removed large quote of preceding post*

[edit on 2-12-2006 by dbates]

Humble One,
I don't know if you read or believe the Bible but there are numerous verses about the resurrection which is, in fact, the central theme throughout the Scriptures. Typing out biblical references is tedious because of all the colons, semicolons, etc. but, if you're interested in researching for yourself, I'd be happy to provide the verses. The Boreans were commended for not believing every doctrine or teaching that came their way but for searching out the scriptures daily to see for themselves if these things were so.
Although there is no place of eternal torment, there is mentioned "everlasting destruction". Make no mistake about it, "the wages of sin is death" and "the soul that sins shall die". We are living in a corrupt age but YHWH is not willing that any should perish but that all should come... Eventually, death and hell/the grave (along with the devil, the beast and the false prophet and the incorrigibly wicked) will be cast into the lake of fire (which destroys, not eternally torments, all combustible materials). This is known as the Second Death from which there will be no recovery, no "second chance", etc. Since most of us can safely exclude ourselves from the category of devil, beast or false prophet, that only leaves incorrigibly wicked to worry about.
There are large volume, small print books written on this subject so I'll be succinct and, forgive me, a little simplistic. Basically, we live our lives, die and after that the judgment. There are many, many people who lived and died before Christ ever came on the earth scene and can't be held accountable for not accepting Christ as their savior. There are many more who never had the opportunity to know that Christ came to save the world and also can't be held accountable. However, the gospel has now been preached throughout the world as Christ commanded and everyone living now is without excuse. The dead in Christ shall rise first and there will come a time when no one will say to his neighbor, "know the Lord for all will know the Lord". The judgment is not just a "sentencing" but a time of trial, testing, instruction and reproof for correction. Satan will be bound during this time and we will be unhindered in our desire to live godly lives. After a time (probably about 100 years as suggested by scripture), if we, with full knowledge and opportunity still refuse to obey YHWH, we are then deemed incorrigibly wicked and sentenced to destruction. At that point we are considered "not worthy of life" (which was originally intended to be eternal) and simply snuffed out of existence as though we never were. This is fair and just and, ultimately wise and merciful. Can you imagine an ETERNAL existence without G_D? Only ourselves to govern ourselves for ever and ever and always? (Shudder)
Man, throughout the ages in all cultures has tried every way imaginable to govern himself with a goal toward orderly society/civilization. About the longest any of these well-intentioned societies have lasted is 1000 years with varying degrees of success. Our current civilization will be no different.
We have hope of the coming government of earth's nations ruled by Christ Himself and His elect. Christianity has been deluded or deceived itself by falling into such non-scriptural beliefs like "the rapture" (a sort of 'get out of tribulation free' card), eternal torment in an imaginary dungeon called "hell", three 'gods' in one (trinity doctrine) and many other non-biblical doctrines.
Again, if you are interested in exploding the hell myth and learning what the scriptures have to say on this all-important topic, I would be happy to provide the many verses. I've found that most people (Christians, mainly) are not really interested, just mildly curious and turn away from anything that would shatter their precious and deeply entrenched traditions, concepts, beliefs, etc. Sad, really, when you consider what's at stake. "Many will say, 'Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name and performed miracles in your name?' and Christ will say, 'I never KNEW you. Depart from me you evildoers.' Being permanently departed from Christ would be the ultimate "hell" for the microsecond you'd have to regret it before you blinked out of existence for all eternity. The goal is to know Him with Whom we have to do and to be known by Him. The reward is great but that is the topic of another thread.

Why would hell be like it is descibed to be? Like SpeakerOf truth said:

To me it's just a scare tactic used as a method of control by the powers that be.

Which it probably is. Lets face it, why would the God which we are told exists, have such a hell. And maybe it isn't eternal torment either, maybe after a certain time people are forgiven.

Originally posted by thexsword
Well when you think of God so negatively it's going to seem like our God is a horrible wrathful God. Which he is wrathfull, and should he not have the right? For someone to completely deny him of his glory, why should they be in heaven with him?

The alternative that God could of choosen for those is to try to show them his glory, or if he did and they saw it and were in disbelief, then God could smash them.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Whitewave, i sure hope you're right brother, cause i worry a lot about this sort of thing.

*removed large quote of preceding post*

[edit on 2-12-2006 by dbates]

Well the pope and the church made up all these extra things that weren't in the Bible (possibly hell) plus masturbation (U2U me if you wan't to know) which of course I don't like that. I don't like it how the pope thought he had so much power and to excommunicate people without God or Jesus even saying that's ok. I believe that only God can excommunicate people but I'm pretty sure he would never do that. Correct me if I'm wrong guys but this is what I believe in. Hell is probably a scare tatic and possibly there's only a place where you go on a path to become a good person.

It is true that the papacy has a lot to answer for but I'll be magnanimous and give them the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that the RCC has just been seriously mistaken and genuinely believed they were keeping believers on the right path (with horribly ungodly means). The doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment is an unspeakable deception perpetuated by the powers that be to subjugate and terrify the masses. It maligns the character of our Creator and turns people against Him. There are consequences to sin-the ultimate consequence being the cessation of all life; not LIFE in eternal torture, not LIFE in a reincarnated form, not LIFE as some incarnate energy/spirit form but DEATH (cessation of life).
Being a "good person" is not enough. "There is none righteous, no, not one." and "there is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are death." We don't achieve eternal life by good works (alone) but by faith (and obedience) to the Living YHWH. The Bible says we must repent (literally: change our mind), believe in the Master Yeheshua.
Before the incensed Catholics on the forum jump in to roast me alive let me just say that there are many devout believers in the papal system of errors. For many years I was one of them. I have nothing against believers in whatever circumstance they find themselves. I do have quite a bit against the shepherds who scatter the flock whatever their denomination.
Faith comes by hearing the word of YHWH. Once we have heard the word of YHWH (not man's doctrines) we are responsible for it. Search the scriptures to see if these things are so regarding a place of eternal LIFE in torment. For me, it was actually quite a relief to learn what the pure word had to say on the subject. It did take a while to dump my pre-conceived notions, indoctrination and traditional concepts but discovering truth is always worth the price you pay for it.

Originally posted by whitewave
It is true that the papacy has a lot to answer for but I'll be magnanimous and give them the benefit of the doubt. It's possible that the RCC has just been seriously mistaken and genuinely believed they were keeping believers on the right path (with horribly ungodly means). The doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment is an unspeakable deception perpetuated by the powers that be to subjugate and terrify the masses. It maligns the character of our Creator and turns people against Him. There are consequences to sin-the ultimate consequence being the cessation of all life; not LIFE in eternal torture, not LIFE in a reincarnated form, not LIFE as some incarnate energy/spirit form but DEATH (cessation of life).
Being a "good person" is not enough. "There is none righteous, no, not one." and "there is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are death." We don't achieve eternal life by good works (alone) but by faith (and obedience) to the Living YHWH. The Bible says we must repent (literally: change our mind), believe in the Master Yeheshua.
Before the incensed Catholics on the forum jump in to roast me alive let me just say that there are many devout believers in the papal system of errors. For many years I was one of them. I have nothing against believers in whatever circumstance they find themselves. I do have quite a bit against the shepherds who scatter the flock whatever their denomination.
Faith comes by hearing the word of YHWH. Once we have heard the word of YHWH (not man's doctrines) we are responsible for it. Search the scriptures to see if these things are so regarding a place of eternal LIFE in torment. For me, it was actually quite a relief to learn what the pure word had to say on the subject. It did take a while to dump my pre-conceived notions, indoctrination and traditional concepts but discovering truth is always worth the price you pay for it.

You are a good lutheran, but the words of Martin Luther don't fully relate to those of my beliefs. But...


The pope is NOT infallible (don't get on me if the RCC changed their ideas on that.) I don't even like the idea of a pope-too much power. The RCC has done some horrible things like the crusades. I'm starting to believe that the bubonic plague was a punishment for the cruel things the catholics did in the holy land.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by wildcat]

thehumbleone, your initial post is intriguing
the concept of a finite punishment in hell is actually reflected in the qu'ran.

there is a line, i cannot give an exact quote or citation, but it says that even the most pious man will spend a second in hell, but that second may seem like an eternity

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Why must there be a hell?

Observers who percieve, also judge. and if observers judge with the tool of "free will", then you have the will and the authority to damn others to hell. But, when mankind killed the son of God, then a new commandment stood: "that which you do to the least of my brethren, that is what you do unto me." So, if anyone has even damned one person in their thoughts over the past 2,000 years, then GOD has been sent to that place as well, either that or JESUS CHRIST was a liar, and the bible is wrong.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by thehumbleone

How can you not believe in it if jesus said it existed?

Well, since I personally think the bible has been severely tampered with, that is rather a moot point to me.

Then surely there is no god. For if there were, certainly god would not permit the word to be tainted by man.

Wildcat,
I am not a Lutheran and don't even know what are the tenets of the Lutheran faith. Also, I haven't been associated with the RCC since I reached the age of reason (a little catholic humor there). I could write an entire treatise on the errors of the RCC but that is not the title of this thread. The OP was about the humble one's inability/unwillingness to accept hell. My response was, basically, that he didn't have to. He is wise to seek the answer to the question of hell in the scriptures. His statement that "you either believe all of it or you don't believe any of it" showed maturity and sound judgment.
I am not familiar with your beliefs about hell or on what you base your beliefs. I consider the Bible to be the only authority on the subject although other peoples' opinions are always of interest to me.
Since most people professing religious/spiritual beliefs have very deeply personal and strongly held opinions in that realm, it is always prudent to approach any subject concerning such matters gingerly and with compassion. Also, beware the knee-jerk response. Many a well-meaning preacher has been kicked in the shins by it.